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Old September 25, 2020, 07:08 PM   #1
ghbucky
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Holy Moly... M1 Carbine!!

Out of nowhere, my brother calls me today and asks if I would like to have a real deal, ww2 M1 carbine?

Uhh..... YES!

Turns out his father in law, who passed away many years ago had it, and my brother had forgotten all about it. He ran across it today and thought I might be interested... yah think?!!!

It will probably be a while before I get my hands on it, but he sent over some pics to torment me with.

I've never had or touched one of these things. What are the do's and dont's?

Can I shoot it?



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Old September 25, 2020, 07:34 PM   #2
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Do's, Shoot it often / Don's, Sell it ; )
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Old September 25, 2020, 08:34 PM   #3
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First step is to field strip it and give it a good cleaning.
After all these years the lube will have dried out and the action will probably be dry and sticky.
Re-lubricate it with your favorite lube, and use a grease on the bolt and operating rod.

Here's the US User and Ordnance Field Manuals. These will tell you everything about how to disassemble and care for it.
Note the info at the top about what password and username to get access.......

http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/

You should absolutely shoot it.
It's a standard re-built Carbine with the later features like the milled adjustable rear sight and bayonet latch.
The GI carry case is itself a collectible and worth some money.

Why do I never get great deals like this?????
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Old September 26, 2020, 07:38 AM   #4
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Y/D: selling it is not on the horizon. My grandson just graduated US Army basic training this past Friday. I think this will end up in his hands.

Quote:
Why do I never get great deals like this?????
That was me on Thursday! Thanks so much for the link. Bro is still sending me details, turns out the barrel is from 1943 made by GM. I think the receiver is from 42 based on his observations.
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Old September 26, 2020, 08:29 AM   #5
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I wouldn't do anything to it until you find out who made and what the value is, most are bringing 1,000 to 2,000 on Gunbroker in original condition, some of the more rare ones are bringing significantly more.
They're a really cool collector gun you could buy some of the still available accessories for to complete it, read about cleaning collector grade ww2 guns before doing so.
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Old September 26, 2020, 08:59 AM   #6
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About 50 years ago winter was play time . A buddy and i or two would hit all the gun shops in the small towns . We could buy a M1 Carbine for $35 to $40 bucks and ammo was real cheap . We shot a bunch of beer cans and sell the Rifle at the last gun shop of the day .
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Old September 26, 2020, 09:47 AM   #7
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The receiver manufacturer name is under the overhang of the rear sight. The barrel manufacturer is marked just behind the front sight; doubtful they'll match.
Your gun, like most, has all the updates and mods introduced through the '50s, so very little "originality" left.
In my experience, 15rd mags always work, but 30-rounders are a crap-shoot.
The new, Korean-made 30s look very good, but can't comment on function.
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Old September 26, 2020, 12:54 PM   #8
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"...Why do I never get great deals like this?..." Ever hear the one about the neighbour's widow who said, "Come take my husbands guns out of my trunk/house."? Said trunk/house(there are several versions of the story) was supposedly full of stuff that went bang, including collector grade stuff. snicker.
"...a standard re-built Carbine..." Yep. That's not a bad thing though. 99.99% of all Carbines went through an arsenal rebuild after W.W. II.
Absolutely give it a really good bath including the stock. IMR4227 is your friend for reloading 110 RN's or HP's. Carbines are great fun to shoot.
Best Carbine site on the 'net is here.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/
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Old September 26, 2020, 01:40 PM   #9
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More O'Heir bad drive-by advice.
Don't put oil on the stock.
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Old September 26, 2020, 06:24 PM   #10
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After WWW II virtually all the carbines were recalled and given the latest upgrades, particularly the rear sight, bayonet lug and late style (flip lever) safety. Then they were re-issued to US, and allied nations troops.

It is very rare to find a carbine still in the as issued WW II configuration, and if you do, it usually means that carbine "went home" with some GI either during or right at the end of the war before the recall.

An actual WWII configuration carbine would have the flip rear sight, no bayonet lug on the barrel and the original push button safety.

The safety was changed during the war, the later type rear sight did get on the last production WWII guns, so you can find guns with those features as "original WWII" but they are scarce.

Don't expect all matching maker's parts, either. Not on any of them. Some makers didn't make all parts, some made some parts and used other maker's parts to complete the guns. THis is not a "mismatch" it is the way some were originally made.

After WWII, and the post war upgrades, any combination of maker's parts is acceptable "as used in service".

Nice looking carbine, the receiver could be WWII production, but the rest of the gun has the post war upgrade parts added.
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Old September 26, 2020, 06:44 PM   #11
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I'll catch some flak over this but it's just an opinion, I believe these guns are a great part of history and shouldn't be shot. If it were mine I might do a very light restoration on the gun, get a shadow box with some other WW2 memorabilia, maybe some pictures and give it to my grandson when he has a house of his own. He could keep it in a safe unless it was on display. Those guns will continue to gain value and collectability regardless of there lack of purist originality.
I have several Colts from the 20's that are treated this way.
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Old September 27, 2020, 07:43 AM   #12
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The receiver and barrel are different manufacturers.

I respect your opinion, Double K, but I disagree. I think the best way to respect this gun's history is to use it as designed, and shoot it.

My Grandson is over the moon excited at the prospect of shooting it. And that seals the deal.
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Old September 27, 2020, 09:45 AM   #13
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I love the M1 Carbine. However, what rankles me is no hold-open device on the 15-round magazines...something that logically would be considered essential on a military weapon.

It seems I posted back in 2015 about the same thing. Reviewing that 2015 thread, I saw that one of the reasons offered for no hold-open on the magazines was that the bolt would batter the follower and render it useless.

Inasmuch as the 30-round Korean era mags had a hold open follower, the idea that the follower could not take the battering and therefore, was not included as a feature of the 15-rounders, makes no sense to me.

Another reason offered was that the M1 Carbine in WWII was not intended to be actually used in combat and therefore did not need a hold-open follower makes no sense to me either considering that the common narrative was that the .30 Carbine was intended to replace the .45 ACP 1911 but did have a hold open system despite the fact that the 1911 was also not cosidered to be a front-line weapon.
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Old September 27, 2020, 11:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
I saw that one of the reasons offered for no hold-open on the magazines was that the bolt would batter the follower and render it useless.
Unless the reason is being offered by the designer himself, or one of the design team engineers, or someone who spoke directly with one of them, or its in their notes and design specs, then its just someone's opinion of what they think the designer(s) intended. Sometimes it's right, often its not.

Quote:
Inasmuch as the 30-round Korean era mags had a hold open follower, the idea that the follower could not take the battering and therefore, was not included as a feature of the 15-rounders, makes no sense to me.
I agree, it SEEMS to make no sense. But there are a lot of things that happen in our world that seem to make no sense. Some of them do, only after fully understanding all the details and decisions that went into them, and some of them never do, even with all the detail history known and documented.

It could very well be a case of the initial design didn't have feature X, simply because the customer didn't specifically request it. Contracts get let, items get made, and pretty soon you've got a few thousand or hundred thousand in the hands of users.

Once there, and users giving feed back that "it sure would be nice /better if it did this..." and what sometimes happens is the makers say "hmm yeah, ok, we'll include that on the next version".

The 30 rnd carbine magazine was designed for the M2 (select fire) carbine. It is quite possible it has an "improved" follower that would "survive battering" as a bolt hold open device. Such a detail may or may not be in the history books.

Lots of myths, including outrageous BS, get entrenched and repeated as fact. Several about the M16 are very common even to this day. And, lots of people still think and get told you don't need to aim a shotgun...etc..
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Old September 27, 2020, 01:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Another reason offered was that the M1 Carbine in WWII was not intended to be actually used in combat
I find that a rather amazing logic. The US turned out in excess of 10k a day of these things in 3 different factories. There is no way they would put that much effort into producing something that wasn't intended to be used directly in the war.

For one, I'm just learning for the first time the bolt doesn't hold open on an empty mag. Interesting. I'm sure there is a lot more to learn about this thing.

Can't wait to get my hands on it.
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Old September 27, 2020, 01:41 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by ghbucky View Post
I find that a rather amazing logic. The US turned out in excess of 10k a day of these things in 3 different factories. There is no way they would put that much effort into producing something that wasn't intended to be used directly in the war.

For one, I'm just learning for the first time the bolt doesn't hold open on an empty mag. Interesting. I'm sure there is a lot more to learn about this thing.

Can't wait to get my hands on it.
It also ignores the fact that U.S. paratroops in the European Theater were issued it as a primary weapon.
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Old September 27, 2020, 01:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Unless the reason is being offered by the designer himself, or one of the design team engineers, or someone who spoke directly with one of them, or its in their notes and design specs, then its just someone's opinion of what they think the designer(s) intended. Sometimes it's right, often its not.



I agree, it SEEMS to make no sense. But there are a lot of things that happen in our world that seem to make no sense. Some of them do, only after fully understanding all the details and decisions that went into them, and some of them never do, even with all the detail history known and documented.

It could very well be a case of the initial design didn't have feature X, simply because the customer didn't specifically request it. Contracts get let, items get made, and pretty soon you've got a few thousand or hundred thousand in the hands of users.

Once there, and users giving feed back that "it sure would be nice /better if it did this..." and what sometimes happens is the makers say "hmm yeah, ok, we'll include that on the next version".

The 30 rnd carbine magazine was designed for the M2 (select fire) carbine. It is quite possible it has an "improved" follower that would "survive battering" as a bolt hold open device. Such a detail may or may not be in the history books.

Lots of myths, including outrageous BS, get entrenched and repeated as fact. Several about the M16 are very common even to this day. And, lots of people still think and get told you don't need to aim a shotgun...etc..
In sum, you seem to be saying what we can only speculate, not know for sure.

I guess that is why I said "...was not included as a feature of the 15-rounders, makes no sense to me."
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Old September 27, 2020, 03:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
There is no way they would put that much effort into producing something that wasn't intended to be used directly in the war.
Quote:
It also ignores the fact that U.S. paratroops in the European Theater were issued it as a primary weapon.
These are correct, but are confusing the original concept of the carbine with the way it was eventually used.

The original concept was that the carbine would not be a primary infantry arm. Used in the war, absolutely, but not by the line infantry. It was intended to replace the .45 pistol for support troops (and not ALL of them), guys who's primary job was not to directly shoot the enemy.

Artillermen, supply troops even cooks, who needed to have a weapon for emergency use, and the carbine gave them that, a weapon with more firepower, greater range and easier use than the pistol.

Now, what happened was that combat troops "discovered" that the 15 shot capacity of the carbine, and its light weight made it an excellent combat weapon in certain circumstances, and those circumstances were often found in Europe. Over time, more and more line troops were issued carbines, and as noted, a lot of them went to the paratroops.

SO, the initial concept was sound, and carbines were first issued to the support troops, it quickly became a preferred weapon for the combat troops as well, and for once, the Army didn't just stick to the original plan, but approved their use and issue to more troops than the original concept involved.

If you look at the mix of weapons we fielded in a typical squad in the later war period, you find a mix of weapons. An SMG (or more) some M1 carbines and some M1 Garand rifles were a common mix. Something for about every likely combat situation, from CQB to long(er) range fire.


None of our enemies managed that, and while Germany did create and field the assault rifle, it was too little, too late.
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Old September 27, 2020, 06:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
None of our enemies managed that
I'm not sure what you mean. German WW2 squads from 41 on had the Squad leader with an SMG, a machine gunner with an MG, and the rifle men with bolt guns.

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Old September 28, 2020, 12:51 PM   #20
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A SMG is a pistol caliber weapon.

The M-1 Carbine was meant to be superior to the pistol (two handed, longer sight radius).

The Stgw was another animal altogether with its intermediate size cartridge.
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Old September 28, 2020, 04:18 PM   #21
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the lowest US grunt on the ground had access to a semi-auto rifle as soon as they could be made and issued, the great M-1 rifle and no axis country did that. my late uncle was with the 11 airborne in the phillipines and he said semi auto rifles saved his life along with men he fought with, the m-1 carbine-m-1 rifle, the thompson full auto was also a prized item there.
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Old September 29, 2020, 05:23 AM   #22
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If you will share a partial serial number the original maker can be determined, if the barrel is different manufacturer it probably was added after the war and old stock from all makers was being used up in the rebuilding program. Inland did not supply barrels to the free parts program but did help Saginaw in the early years. Also even though your rear sight ( a milled unit not stamped) covers the name with a flash light you should be able to make out enough to come up with the name.
PS: These rifles were made to shoot and are basically bulletproof so don’t lock them in the safe to gather dust. I have twelve of them and all get shot from the Oct 42 Inland to a 5mil Inland.
From your photo looks like the S/N is assigned to Inland Div of GM

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Old September 29, 2020, 05:51 AM   #23
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Carbines made up a great deal of the firepower in the pacific campaign where its light weight ire power and compactness in jungle and closed situations allowed it to excell. Certainly it did not have the knock down of the M1 but it never was intended to.. The carbine soldiered above and beyond expectations.
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Old September 29, 2020, 07:43 PM   #24
Dfariswheel
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The Carbine was intended to be a more effective replacement for the 1911 pistol.
It was to be issued to rearward echelon support troops, and also to officers and crew served weapons crews like machine gunners and mortar crews.
Combat troops discovered how handy and fast to use it was, and the 15 round magazine was a great selling point.

It served perfectly in WWII in Europe and the Pacific, and again in Vietnam.
It didn't serve to well in Korea, although it was heavily issued in M1 and M2 form, simply because it was never intended to be used at the longer ranges common in Korea.

A telling point on the Carbine as a combat arm: It was the favorite weapon of Audie Murphy who probably saw more hard combat in WWII then almost any other soldier, and had the medals to prove it.

And, the Carbine with soft point sporting ammo still delivers the goods today as a home defense weapon.
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Old September 29, 2020, 10:51 PM   #25
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It served perfectly in WWII in Europe and the Pacific, and again in Vietnam.
I would say "adequately" rather than "perfectly" in WWII, etc.

Nothing is perfect for every situation.

One of the carbine stories that impressed me as a teen was one that one of my neighbors told. He had been a CB in the Pacific, and used the M1 carbine.

His crew was working putting in an airstrip on an island that had been declared "secured". (can't remember if he said which one, though I know it was well after Guadalcanal)

They had a sniper problem. In the top of a tree, he would shoot, then when they shot back, he would duck behind the tree trunk. Their carbines couldn't get him, and while the sniper didn't hit anyone, he was putting holes in the thin parts of their bulldozer and kept them from working for most of an afternoon, until a Marine BAR man showed up and dumped a magazine of AP into the tree. Rifle hit the ground, dead sniper hung on the end of his tether.

One of the guys I used to work with had been a telephone lineman in Korea. He loved the M1 carbine, it was light, and he happily admitted, he never had to shoot anyone with it. He did, however really gripe about the winter. When winter came they took away his carbine and made him carry an M1 Garand, which he hated due to the weight.

Yes, Audie Murphy used and was said to like the carbine. Makes sense to me, especially considering he was not a very large man.
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