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Old April 4, 2018, 01:38 PM   #26
Theohazard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riffraff
I think you want a big slow moving round out of a hand cannon - something you can discreetly move around with, answer the door with, keep nearby where you sleep, that packs a huge punch but doesn't travel too far or through too many objects
Big, slow-moving rounds tend to penetrate like crazy through interior walls. See post #5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite
Boy, the myth of the Shotgun just refuses to die.
Agreed.
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Old April 4, 2018, 03:10 PM   #27
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I recently read quite a long thread elsewhere about whether a pistol caliber carbine is better or worse for home defense (inside, surrounded by drywall) than a rifle caliber. Boy did that thread cite a lot of ballistic data.

"It depends" seems to be the only constant in these discussions. It depends on exactly how the bullet hits the wall, from what angle, on what day and in what time zone. Any bullet can over penetrate.

I know I can maneuver around tight spaces better with a handgun, no doubt. Out to 15' I'm probably unlikely to miss a human sized target with a handgun. But I also know I'm more accurate and at far greater ranges with any rifle, PCC or otherwise.

One guy said he chose a PCC loaded with 9mm rounds designed for indoor use...Federal Guard Dog I believe it was. Supposed to penetrate through fewer sheets of drywall than comparable hollow points...sometimes...maybe.

I trust my CZ handgun because I've put thousands of rounds through it and have taken 40 hours of training in shooting handguns. I'm ok with a rifle, but I've put maybe 200 rounds through rifles ever and have never taken a class in using one. So I"m guessing that staying with what I know will minimize my chances of missing!
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Old April 4, 2018, 03:29 PM   #28
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I've seen penetration testing,
The first thing that struck me was, virtually no head on (90* perpendicular to wall material) shots BEFORE the target.
Pre-target misses are generally glancing angles, down hallways, around corners, etc.

Light weight .223 & buckshot glanced off the walls, while 9mm (and police 40 cal) buried themselves in coverings (drywall & studs), often didn't penetrate the second layer of drywall.

Behind the target (clean misses) often hit at low angles.
Being further away from the shooter, buckshot spreads out decreasing it's penetration over surface area, while light weight .223 carried enough velocity to fragment and not seriously over penetrate.

Lighter weight, smaller buckshot 'Generally' over penetrates less.
Makes sense because smaller buck has lower mass and is low velocity to begin with.
.223 in lower weights fragments (splatters) when it hits something hard, often times glass is enough to do it.

9mm WILL clear two layers of drywall head on or at low angle, 40 cal blew right through also.
I didn't try my 1911, I already knew what it would do...

Deer slugs were the worst, as you might expect.
They blew through wall studs edgeways and continued through the next room, and beyond.
00 buck wasn't much better, over penetration is a real issue, but not as bad as slugs.

Standard 00 Buck is 9 pellets, about 0.330" in diameter.
That's 9ea., .33 cal balls per shot. 9 projectiles per pull of trigger.
That's over an ounce of lead traveling at 1,200 FPS on average.
That's a BUNCH of knock down power, energy delivered to target well in excess of what any semi-auto pistol or rifle will deliver in a single pull off the trigger.
(Mass x Velocity Squared)

With smaller shot, the energy doesn't decrease at 3 yards, but the potential for over penetration beyond the target does decrease.

There is a reason shotguns have always had the intimidation factor at close range, it simply wins in power delivered to the target.
No one with working brain cells faces down a shotgun...
(Home Invaders rarely have working brain cells)

As for home defense with an AR clone, its more accurate than any handgun, but at 3 yards I'm not sure that matters.
I've seen people empty pistols at 3 yds and hit virtually nothing, but they are usually not people that practice or get training. (A dangerous combination)

In a lot of states, it's a good idea to use ammo specifically marketed as 'Self Defense' or 'Home Defense'.
More and more are getting hauled into court for 'Killer Ammo', if not criminal court, then civilian lawsuits drag them into court. The bad guy, and his family can & will drag you into court, and every detail of firearm, ammo, situation is going to be dissected in the worst possible light.
A FACTORY product marketed as 'Self Defense' will allow you to claim 'Intended Purpose'.
It can't be claimed you used a 'Killer Bullet' if your use is 'On Lable'.

This isn't idle talk, this is from actual trial information.
See 'Black Talon' trials in CA & other states if you don't believe it.
Winchester Black Talons pulled off the market to stop potential litigation when they were labeled 'Cop Killers' by the press, and ambulance chasing lawyers were right behind the bad press...

Keep in mind that MOST home owners policies won't cover liability litigation in home shootings.
When I found this out I got a personal liability policy to cover such things since there are firearms in the house and I do carry on occasion.
I can afford a good defense if that situation arises.

These are the things people don't tell you when they are Keen on selling you a 'Home Defense' or 'Personal Defense' firearm.

Expect to be charged with (suspicion of) homicide.
Have a lawyer that specializes in self defense shootings on speed dial.
Have an insurance policy to cover legal expenses, both criminal & civil.
Don't talk to investigators, ask for your lawyer! Police get somewhere between 2 & 5 days to make an 'On the record' statement, get your lawyer and get yourself together and be coherent.
This also makes the police DO THEIR JOBS! Collect evidence, look at the things they should be.
There are states/cities that will charge you, let the prosecutor decide to charge or not, all the while evidence gets ignored or gets removed, gets lost.

If you think you are 'John Wayne' or 'Rambo', you are in for a rude, long and costly, awakening!
Not all states have 'Stand Your Ground' laws, make sure you have the right to shoot, even in your own home... (I know, it doesn't make sense to me either)
It's often refered to as 'Avenues Of Escape', personally, I'm not inclined to jump through a double pane glass window to 'Escape' when some idiot is invading my house... I'll take my chances with a good lawyer & the jury...
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Old April 4, 2018, 07:36 PM   #29
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My choice is hornady t2 frontier 5.56 75gr bthp
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Old April 4, 2018, 07:50 PM   #30
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is a .223/5.56 less loud inside a house than say a .44 magnum? I'm asking for a friend.
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Old April 4, 2018, 07:50 PM   #31
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At what I guesstimate as a home-defense distance of probably less than some thirty yards, what difference would it make regardless of bullet choice? Seems to me that most any common load would change a bad-guy's mind.
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Old April 4, 2018, 08:46 PM   #32
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Quote:
is a .223/5.56 less loud inside a house than say a .44 magnum? I'm asking for a friend.
Something I’ve never thought of, because I’ve never owned a 44mag

I do know that firing a .223 (or bigger rifle caliber) inside is incredibly loud. After a couple of shots things get pretty smoky.
Art summed it up pretty well... any range that a decent civil society would consider a valid self defense range, bullet/cartridge/gun type will not matter as much as hitting your assailant center mass.
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Old April 4, 2018, 11:15 PM   #33
Bartholomew Roberts
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According to a hearing website, a .44 SPL is 155.9db and an 18” AR15 in .223 is 155.4db. So I’d guess they are close. .357 Magnum seems to take the prize at 163.something db.
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Old April 4, 2018, 11:35 PM   #34
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Quote:
There is a reason shotguns have always had the intimidation factor at close range, it simply wins in power delivered to the target.
No one with working brain cells faces down a shotgun...
(Home Invaders rarely have working brain cells)

As for home defense with an AR clone, its more accurate than any handgun, but at 3 yards I'm not sure that matters.
My thought exactly, and why I have a shotgun next to my bed. I really don't give a flip about how baddazz the shotgun sounds when I rack the slide, all I know is in low light and cramped target area I will be shooting at (my bedroom entry, or the immediate foyer beyond, I have a better chance of hitting a target in low or no light with the shotgun than my AR, let alone my 9mm.

This is really a nonsensical discussion... every person that maintains a firearm for home defense has a very different qualification. My choice of a shotgun should not be the same as someone else with a different set of defense parameters.
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Old April 5, 2018, 06:37 AM   #35
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There are many bullets in factory ammo and for handloaders that have performed well in the FBI tests as well as on game such as hogs and deer. The Winchester 64 Power Point is supposed to do suprisingly well, being plain cup-n-core construction but holds together. Sierra makes a 65 GameKing softpoint, but do not know of a factory load that uses it, maybe Federal? Federal has an excellent line of bonded soft points that are accurate and low cost named Fusion. The 62 gr Fusion bullet is pretty much the same as the Speer Gold Dot which is available as a 5.56 load for LE.

Then you have the Barnes Vortex ammo and the TSX and Tipped TSX bullets used in it being made of solid copper and excellent performance on game and I find them to be better than average accurate as well, available in 50 gr, 55 gr (I think), 62 gr and 70 gr bullets. I think Black Hills loads some of these, too.

The 75 gr BTHP and 77 gr BTHP also do surprising well in the non-barrier FBI tests and some guys use them very successfully on deer. This is mainly due to the heavy for caliber construction and the fact they tumble and fragment inside the body creating impressive wounds. Hornady offers theirs in their 75 gr TAP defensive ammo, and Federal loads the 77 gr Sierra Matchkings in their Gold Medal ammo.

Nosler also makes a well regarded 60 gr Partition bullet and I imagine they have a factory load and I think Federal has a factory load with it. Nosler also makes a terrific bonded soft point in their 64 gr Bonded Solid Base bullet.

A lot of enemy combatants have been killed with 55 gr FMJ (M193) and 62 gr steel penetrator M855 ammo. While not ideal, they can get the job done.

The caliber may not be the greatest, but modern bullets make the .223/5.56 a reliable and effective defensive and hunting round.

Personally I have Speer 64 gr Gold Dot LE, Fusion 62 gr SP ammo and handloaded 77 gr Nosler BTHP ammo loaded in my carbines for defensive use. But I would be happy with any of the above mentioned ammo and bullets. I started using the Gold Dot but found the Fusion is much cheaper and basically the same bullet so future purchases are all Fusion (.223 load).
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Old April 5, 2018, 10:35 AM   #36
dmattaponi
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I like the safe answer...223 okay in a 5.56 chambered rifle. 5.56 not so good in a 223 only chambered rifle. It's all about the chamber pressure, over time. It's easy enough to purchase 5.56 chambered rifles so that one doesn't have to wonder or worry about abusing 223 chambered guns.
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Old April 7, 2018, 12:21 PM   #37
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Myth of the shotgun. That is a new one. The advantage of a shotgun is versatility and along with stopping power. Yes, buckshot has some penetration as do slugs. Number 6 steel shot is devestating at close range on an unarmored target and is less likely to have over penetration issues. That is why my first two rounds are birdshot, followed by buckshot. I finish with some slugs for anyone left who now realizes I am armed and decided to take cover.

As for 5.56mm....no way would I use it for home defense. I have vivid memories of the first guy we shot in the room in Afghanistan standing there with two rounds in their chest trying to get their own weapons up and into the fight. We averaged -8 rounds of green tip to put a man down at room distances.
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Old April 7, 2018, 01:17 PM   #38
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Quote:
As for 5.56mm....no way would I use it for home defense. I have vivid memories of the first guy we shot in the room in Afghanistan standing there with two rounds in their chest trying to get their own weapons up and into the fight. We averaged -8 rounds of green tip to put a man down at room distances.
.

That was possible the WORST bullet to use. I understand that line units dont have a choice in ammo selection. A homeowner in the USA, does. Lots of GREAT anti-people ammo avail to the informed user.

My Agency issued Hornady TAP to us. It worked AMAZINGLY well.
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Old April 7, 2018, 11:42 PM   #39
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Quote:
LilPewPew asked:
5.56 vs .223 for Home Defense
The differences between the specifications of the rounds themselves is so small as to be insignificant for what you're asking about. At 300 yards we can talk about which one has the advantage, but at 7 yards, it would be a meaningless discussion.

60 foot-pounds of energy delivered to a vital location on the human body can be lethal. Everything above that is potentially overkill. Whether you deliver 1,000 foot-pounds to the target or 1,200 foot-pounds doesn't matter is neither shot hits a vital area.

The 223 or 5.56 are both lethal at short distances. You need to stop focusing on irrelevancies and instead get to the range and practice putting rounds on target in a variety of scenarios that don't involve the target obligingly standing still while you get ready on your bench.

Quote:
...what is the best type/brand of that ammo for home defense.
You are talking about using round developed by the military for use against targets out to 300 meters in an environment where you almost certainly will be shooting under 10 meters. Unless it hits bone inside your home invader, the round is likely to go straight through them and thus dissipate its potential effect.

Thus, buy whatever soft point or hollow point ammunition is on sale.
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Old April 8, 2018, 03:03 AM   #40
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Dump that little weenie 5.56 and get an AK47... Trust me...seen way to many times in combat when the bad guys just chewed up our cover and our M-4's couldnt do diddly against them.. Others will disagree, but I own a Zastava AK-47 underfolder as my truck gun and general defense gun...great round... I know... I had it coming at me the wrong way for over 3 years... I have my absolute go to rifle for SHTF things which is an M-1A SOCOM.... My M-4 sucked...couldnt penetrate barriers at all...we all hated the damn thing...several guys actually picked up and used RPK's and AK's.... Go figure...
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Old April 8, 2018, 10:42 AM   #41
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We used 77grain on my subsequent tours and I wonder what your definition of a “line unit” was in the initial invasion of Afghanistan? If it was somebody not OGA then I am sorry but those guys where all cocktail circuit and fish out of water lost in their own tacticool dreams.

With 77grain your stopping power at room distances is increased but so isn’t your over penetration problems.
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Old April 8, 2018, 11:38 AM   #42
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"...5.56 vs .223..." There is no 'vs'. Those two are the same thing. 5.56 is just the NATO designation for .223.
"...hunt deer..." Little people or not it may not be legal, period.
"...fine buckshot..." No such thing. Unless you think the 6mm/.243" pellets in #4 buck is 'fine' shot.
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Old April 8, 2018, 11:47 AM   #43
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Quote:
I understand that line units dont have a choice in ammo selection.
= Military personal that dont have the option of choosing what ammo they use. The 77gn OTM bullet was issued to some units as a way of overcoming the issues with the 62gn penciling right thru badguys.

Again, my point is, the American civilian buying SD ammo for his 223 has a bunch of options that VASTLY outperform the ammo issued to Military units.

That ammo improves terminal performance, decreases over penetration issues, lowers flash from shorter barrels.

Any 223 FMJ used for SD is poorly chosen.
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Old April 8, 2018, 02:23 PM   #44
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We had an option which is why we used 77grain on our subsequent tours....


Perhaps you meant “regular army” instead of “line unit”. A line unit means a combat unit whose job it is to engage in direct combat with the enemy. Your job is to mix metal and meat.

Many “line units” are not regular army but belong to other MACOM’s such as USASOC for example.
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Old April 8, 2018, 03:22 PM   #45
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We had an option which is why we used 77grain on our subsequent tours....
That is not nearly as good as the “options” avail to the avg citizen

As for the term “line unit”, i dont speak Army. All my time was in the Marines
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Old April 8, 2018, 04:25 PM   #46
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Ain’t nothing in the military can touch some good ole redneck hunting ammunition.
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Old April 8, 2018, 07:55 PM   #47
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12g shotgun sport loads like we use to shoot trap work fine for home defense. -- 7 1/2 or 8, pick your poison. All you need to convince yourself is to put 3 or 4 rounds on a jug at 25 meters. Boom boom. If you need any more home defense fire power, well the Russians are coming over the back fence !

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Old April 9, 2018, 08:58 AM   #48
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At what I guesstimate as a home-defense distance of probably less than some thirty yards, what difference would it make regardless of bullet choice? Seems to me that most any common load would change a bad-guy's mind.
Well, as was previously known but really came to the forefront in Somalia, bullet choice did make a difference with the military's 62 gr. green tip ammo zipping right through Somali combatants, not destabilizing, making ice pick holes unless the bullets hit bone and such. The failure to expand (not designed to expand) or tumble (too stable to do so reliably) meant the rounds often did minimal damage. So bullet differences can be significant.
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Old April 9, 2018, 04:36 PM   #49
Art Eatman
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Given what a 55-grain softpoint does to the innards of a coyote, I figure that a few of those in center mass should end hostilities. Seems like a reasonable social load, to me.
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Old April 9, 2018, 05:01 PM   #50
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The 55 gn softpoint was the issued ammo before my Dept changed to TAP. It worked good the couple times we used it. The 62gn TAP gives better intermediate barrier performance then the 55gn TAP.

For use inside a home, id go with the 55gn TAP. Its expansion can only be described as EXPLOSIVE
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