S&W Model 1937 Brazilian contract

[James K]

Mine has the import mark, too, but they missed (just) the serial number.

So the puzzle continues. If the inspection marks were put on the parts, and the government took all the finished and inspected parts, my gun was not built from parts. Further, the barrel and cylinder serials are absolutely consistent with those on the U.S. M1917.

IMHO, S&W got that gun (and how many others?) back from the Army, altered the butt to remove the original serial number and the U.S. markings, but then restamped the same serial number so it matched those on the cylinder and barrel.

The grips, BTW, are checkered diamond, "silver seal", but the serial number does not match the gun.

So, if S&W did get M1917s back from the Army post-WWII, what serial numbers did they put on? Did they keep the original serial, as on mine? If so, there would have been no "range" as the numbers would have been random. If they removed all the serial numbers and re-marked the guns, that should be fairly obvious to anyone with calipers.

If they made new guns for Brazil after WWII, the presence of the hammer block safety (type 3?) should tell the tale.

Jim

[Mike Irwin]

I don't think S&W did make new guns for Brazil to fulfill the last half of the order. I think those are the frames that were repurchased from the Gov't after the war.

Unfortunately, my library is running low on resources to answer this puzzle.

I need to open my 1917 up and see what kind of hammer block it has. I seem to recall it having the second model hammer block, but it's been quite some time since I last looked.

[Mike Irwin]

OK, I finally found my copy of Jink's History of Smith & Wesson.

It sort of sheds some light on the history of the Brazilian contract guns, but leaves other questions unanswered, and may raise a few others...

Quoting starting on p. 205 with production of the Model of 1917 for the US military during WW I... I'm throwing in paragraphs to aid clarity, and have bolded a couple of important sentences.

"The butt of the revolver was stamped with the model designation U.S. Army Model 1917. The demands on the factory were great, and everything possible was done to increase production. But it was not moving fast enough for the US Government and on September 13, 1918 (later than I remembered), the government took control of S&W and managed the company for the duration of the war. This period marked the first time that S&W Arms Company had not been administered by the Wesson Family.

The new building was completed in 1918 and production of the Government Model rose quickly from 5,000 units per month to over 14,500 units. Factory production records indicate 163,476 .45 Hand Ejector Models of 1917 were produced during WW I. These revolvers were serial numbered in a separate series beginning at serial number 1.

S&W sold commercially some of the .45 Hand Ejector Models of 1917 that had been produced during WW I production (guns that the Gov't didn't take to fulfill the contract, I would guess). The sale of these guns continued until January 5, 1921.

At this time the firm had depleted is supply of wartime products and began producing a commercial model identical to the wartime-production gun, except for its checkered walnut grips. The sale of the Model of 1917 was relatively minor through the 1920s and early 1930s, but in 1837 S&W accepted an order from the Brazilian Government for 25,000 of the .45 Hand Ejectors. These revolvers were supplied with the Brazilian seal on the side plate and were delivered between February and October of 1938.

With completion of this order, the serial numbers for this model reached 209,791. S&W produced sufficient quantities of this model to fill the Brazilian order and to have guns in stock until the beginning of the World War II production.

On May 14, 1946, the factory resumed production of the .45 Hand Ejector Model of 1917, and between May 14, 1946 and July 25, 1947, 991 new revolvers were serial numbered between 209,972 and 210,782. However, the factory also had an additional 10,868 frames on hand that had been manufactured during the 1930s and were already serial numbered. These revolvers were assembled and sold as late as 1949, when S&W officially dropped the 1917 Model from production."


As I said, that clarifies some things (such as my contention that the company did produce a significant number of frames during the 1930s that were stockpiled.

But, it says nothing about the second production run of guns for Brazil, and it says nothing about any repurchase of frames or other parts from the Government.

It also says nothing about the origin of the frames for the Brazilian contract being US Gov't buy backs, and infers strongly that the guns made for Brazil were new manufacture.

Someone above mentioned that the sight channel on the Brazilian 1917s was different from the US Gov. Model of 1917 in that the Brazilian guns had flat sight tops, where the gov't guns had rounded sight tops.

My gun has the flat top sights, which leads me to believe that it was produced specifically for the Brazilian contract.

[radom]

Mike the comment I made on the Brazil guns being rough on the WW-2 deal is due to they where used in WW-2 by the Brazian expendentry force and got pretty beat up on the way to Berlin and are hence a bit rough on the out side due to being used in combat. Most of them also sat in a sinking rusted to heck dreadnaught from like 1912 till they got issued to the guys going to europe too. Almost all of them are combat vets of WW-2 and show the marks of that too.

[dogngun]

About 3 years ago, stumbled on a pretty nice .DA .45 Brazillian Contract S&W revolver and bought it for $450. I have some information - I got my letter back from Roy Jinks - but there are some interesing questions that I think may never really be answered on these revolvers. First, the SN is 1429xx, indicating manufacture in 1919, IIRC. The gun is a WWI 1917 type, with the round top frqame and rear sight and half nickle front sight. It has NO military markings or inspection marks, just assembly numbers and a very small stamp inside the frame near the sn, next to the cylinder cutout - It is an eagle standing on a branch or riband or some such device, with "S2" stamped underneath it... It requires a glass to even make it out. The inport stamp is under the barrel flat - IA CO SAC CA - and the matching SN. It has the crest and '37 on the right, along with Made In USA under the cylinder, and the small S&W logo on the left frame. It has the SN stamped on the butt and a swivel, and unfortunately, an older pair of MOP grips instead of the factory grips.

Mr, Jinks states this gun shipped to the freight forwarder - John Block Co, NYC, on May 1, 1946 for shipment to Brazil. He also states that SN's for this late batch vary - running from 0 to 210,000. He states that the new styl hammer block was added in October 1947, long after these revolvers were gone to Brazil.

I 'm still very curious how a 1919 WWI style revolver in what looks like commercial blue finish and with no military stamps got shipped from the factory in 1946.
I think ALL of these old guns are a puzzle and interesting just as such.

They are also superb revolvers - NOBODY makes anything even nearly as smooth and well fitted as these old guns, and I can't imagine what a new-made example with the same craftsmanship would cost today...probably be impossible to make one now.
I don't shoot mine much, but that will change this fall.
FWIW.

mark

[sandbag]

You canget new 45AR ammo from Georgia Arms and use the brass over quite a few times because it is brand new when they send it.I notice they use Starline.

[natman]

The problem is AR brass is almost impossible to find now.

Not quite impossible:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...ber=1601205181

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/...roductId/16682

Starline seems to be between production runs, but there's plenty of Remington.

[James K]

Hi, Dogngun and Mike,

I am willing to bet a small coffee that that eagle head with S2 is a Springfield Armory inspector's mark, put on during WWI. Any thoughts, Mike?

Jim

[MADISON]

Several years ago I got a S&W Brazilian revolver.
For some reason it wan't as strong as I expected.
Middle of the road reloads stressed the frame. Is this normal with these guns?

[zippy13]

I've got a '17 and a 625, but I'm in the dark on the specifics of the Brazilian model. What I curious about is the folks who think loose auto rims are more convenient than moon clips. Perhaps they don't have the appropriate moon clip loading tool/s.

[DG45]

I own one of the flat-top Brazillian Contract S&W 45's. The finish is well-worn, but is definitely commercial blue; not parkerized. Nevertheless it has military-type smooth walnut handgrips. The only other thing that looks military is the butt swivel.

This gun has mismatched serial numbers. I've always considered it a "mutt" and believed it was made by taking the frame from one revolver and the cylinder from another. Nevertheless, it was handfitted perfectly. If you look closely, you can tell where one place on the lip of the forcing cone was worked on with a file, and a couple of other areas were worked on too, but whoever did it knew exactly what he was doing. The marks are almost (but not completely) imperceptible. After all this handfitting, the gun is perfectly tight, with an action smooth as silk. It shoots to point of aim with 230 grain ball, but shoots slightly higher with heavier loads. It's not quite as accurate as my 6" 38 Special Colt OP revolver is, but is certainly "acceptably" accurate. It's certainly both accurate enough and powerful enough for close quarter work like HD.

Serial number 195xxx is stamped both under the barrel, and on the metal buttstrap of this revolver, but the serial number stamped on the back wall of the cylinder is 186xxx. Both 195xxx and 186xxx fall within the serial numbers of the guns sent to Brazil in 1938 but not WWI guns.

There is some kind of tiny mark (it may be a double oval?) about a quarter of an inch in front of the serial number that's under the barrel. I have no idea what this mark is or what it signifies, but would like to know.

The only other markings that I can see on the gun appear to be sub-assembly numbers. The number 29006 is on the inside of the part of the frame where when the cylinder is closed, it meets the inside part of the swing-out crane. Another marking or number is inside the swing-out crane. This looks like it may be a 4 or possibly some other mark, followed by 7690.

Does anyone on the forum have any idea whether this gun was originally made at the S&W factory from an inventory of stored parts with mismatched serial numbers, or if it was made later from parts salvaged from two different guns?

PS Zippy 13,

The primary consideration in the design of ammo meant for auto pistols is that the ammo feed and eject reliably. That places limitations on the kind of bullets and powder loads that can be used.

However, except for price, the only considerations you have to worry about when buying revolver ammo is that its not too powerful for your gun, that its accurate in your gun and its terminal effect on your target.

Thats why I use Black Hills 45 Auto Rim cartridges for HD in my Brazilian contract 45; ie., its not because I don't like moon clips. I do like 'em. In fact, I keep a couple of them in my bedside table drawer all the time, loaded with 45 ACP ball for speedy reloading. But I can't find factory-made 255 grain LSWC's in 45 ACP and thats the 45 Auto Rim load I prefer. The Black Hills concoction pushes a LSWC out of my gun at something over 800 fps muzzle velocity.

[Raimundo Queiroz]

Hi folks after Reading so much information some points are now clear but I still have a doubt.
I bought a brazilian from the second batch (1946), round top frame , same serial number on bbl, cylinder and butt - 17067X . that puts its manufacture in 1919.
My question is: This 1946 contract to Brazil used entire guns made for the US Army bought back by S&W and refinished or just frames that were fitted with new cyliders and barrels from the factory stocks?
If it was made in 1919 was it around the factory all that time?
After all the war was over.

[Mike Irwin]

Hi, Raimundo,

Unfortunately, the intervening 8 years since this was originally discussed haven't resulted in a lot of new information (at least for me) regarding the 1917 revolvers, and I can only speculate...

"If it was made in 1919 was it around the factory all that time?"

It's possible.

As I noted in one of my earlier posts, I believe that when WW I ended and the US Army returned control of S&W to the company that it took all finished frames, but there were many other frames in various stages of completion.

It's very possible that S&W finished and serialized frames and other parts and then warehoused them to be used as orders came in so that they could return production lines to other, more popular models.

This wouldn't be unprecedented.

During the boom times of the 1920s S&W was producing frames I and K frames hand over fist, and then the Great Depression hit and sales came screeching to a halt.

S&W warehoused a LOT of parts -- frames, cylinders, etc., and slowly drew them out of stock while they shuttered some production lines.

When S&W started providing firearms to Britain in the early days of WW II some of those guns were manufactured using frames that had been made in the 1920s and then warehoused.

That was one of the reasons why S&W was able to survived the Light Rifle debacle -- they could say to the British "well, we can't give you your $1 million Light Rifle funds back, and we obviously can't make you a Light Rifle that works, but we can give you a lot of revolvers chambered for the .380-200 cartridge, and we can give them to you fast."

The British were in desperate need of firearms, especially after Dunkirk, so they agreed.

S&W cleared its warehouses and started putting its people back to work and went on to provide millions of handguns for the US and its allies during the War.

[Raimundo Queiroz]

EDIT IN -- I've finally uploaded Raimondo's photos.

VERY nice gun, and having the box is great!

[Mike Irwin]

The box?

Ok, you have my interest...

If you want to upload a picture, the best way to do it is to host it at a photo site and link to it.

I would LOVE to see it, though, so I'd be very happy if you would send me your pictures to [email protected]

[RickB]

I have never understood the objection to full moon clips. If I only had one or two clips, I probably wouldn't want to bother either, but they are cheap, so get a couple of dozen. Load them before you leave for the range, and spend your time shooting instead of tediously loading one round at a time.

Same.
I have both AR brass and speedloaders for it, but have never used either.
Given my druthers, all revolvers would utilize moon clips.

[briandg]

back to the point, they both headspace on the rim, with the case head flat against the breech face, and they should both fire with equal accuracy. The moon clips really aren't that hard, are they? You can pop the fired rounds out by using a dowel in a vise, hook the empty over the dowel and pull away. don't they press in pretty easily if you put them on a flat surface? No, it's not as easy as dropping them into the cylinder, but once you load 100 into clips, well, the hard part is over, and you don't single load them at the range.

[Mike Irwin]

Or you can go the even easier route and buy RIMZ clips from Beckham industries.

They're polymer. Easy to load, easy to unload, and do a very good job of holding the rounds.


Rinmundo sent me pictures of his gun yesterday. I'm going to upload them to my picture hosting service and post them for him, but I've not had a chance to do so.

Let's just say that Raimundo has a VERY nice 1917...

[briandg]

I had seen them, but didn't remember them. Thanks for correcting that.

[AK103K]

I have a 1917 Smith, and a Brazilian to be exact. I use the full moon clips with it. I have some half moon, but they are more of a PITA than anything, especially when trying to unload them. They tend to be flimsy and want to bend when you try and get the cases out.

I got a bunch of full moon clips and an "unloader" off Amazon when I first got the gun. The unloader is a simple piece of metal tubing, with a 180* cut on one end. You slip the tube over the case and give it a twist, and the case falls into the tube. It will hold all 6 cases, so it makes quick work of unloading the clip.

Looks like this.....

[Screwball]

I learned about this loader when I got into 9mm revolvers (my converted 642-1, to be exact).

http://www.bmtequipped.com/purchase.php

Same loader/clips for the 625 (N46-6) works for the M1917. It should work with half-moonclips, but really not 100% on it. It is a little costly, but I’ve yet to find a better loader out there.

A S&W M1917, or one of its variations, is on my short list (if I don’t see one at the next PA gunshows, I’ll wait until I move and transfer my C&R to Maine; NJ doesn’t allow me to receive firearms via mail ). I like Colt, but the S&W allowing for ACP to be loaded/headspaced without the clip is something I always liked (something I’d rarely ever use).

[Raimundo Queiroz]

Hi Mike thanks for the uploading. Boy I´m happy, today I found 80 45 auto rim loaded rounds stashed here. I guess it will suffice to try the brazilian when I have it in my hands.
Regards, Raimundo

[Trum4n1208]

I'd highly recommend the RIMZ clips. I got a sample pack for my 1917 and I love them. Need to buy a lot more.