"It's the Police!"

[hogdogs]

I will say gobs of red and blue flashy thingys on my walls at night suggest real LEO outside I will go out before they kick my door in... i can VERY safely assume the address they got is wrong so I will do my best to protect my privacy.
I do not and will not be conducting any illegal activity deserving a search warrant, especially a no knock type. No dope dealing, dope growing or manufacture, nothin! So in the event I am awake when they proclaim "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT" I will assume it is a lie perpetrated by home invaders. My shot gun is right beside this here desk and it is 100% HOT! No one can kick my door and be within range to shoot me before I am able to INITIATE gunfire. After I am asleep I will not comprehend the verbal as that is what will stir me from slumber but that size ten doorbell will be understood! Again I am going to have my gun ready albeit from a prone position on the bed. Either way I am getting first shot. Mistakes may be okay status quo for some depts. but I think intel is paramount to execution of warrant and possibly lil ol innocent ME! I ain't chest thumpin' I am simply saying that since nothing I do warrants a warrant search I doubt it is real cops a knockin!
Brent

[shaggy]

I'm not sure if this is a cop bashing thread or not. Butttt, and its a big but, I will say BIG mistakes have happened, and sometimes with sad results, for all involved.

As I said in my previous post, I don't see this as cop bashing. The guys, like TexasSeaRay, who kick doors for a living aren't, for the most part, the ones formulating the policies that put them there in the first place. I agree with Tex that most cops are good hard working men and women just trying to do their job. Of course, mistakes are occasionally made - sometimes with fatal results for an innocent party.

That said, we come back to the original question posed by the OP - what does one do when you are awoken in bed by the sound of your door being kicked down and aren't sure if its the cops or the bad guys posing as cops. I gave my thoughts - if you have any indication whatsoever it could be the police, don't move and pray that if its the bad guys they don't kill you, and if its the cops pray you don't become victim of another mistake like Alberto Sepulveda. As we've already acknowledged accidents do happen, but thats little consolation if you're in the morgue. If the wrong door is kicked an average of 1% of the time, thats 400 times a year if (according to Cato) there are roughly 40,000 SWAT raids per year. Thats not cop bashing, its simple math - the more they're used, the more accidents will happen.

[JollyRoger]

The only time I have heard of bad guys disguised as LEO's is when they are robbing drug dealers who have large sums of cash or dope around, because they figure the drug dealers will give up, which they usually do. Otherwise, why go to the trouble of the disguise?

If you're not involved in criminal activity and someone is coming into your house yelling "Police," the odds are miniscule that they are not the police. If they have made a mistake, do you really want to kill them? The better option is to assume the least threatening posture, hands empty and visible, and hash it out after everything is secure and calm. If it is a mistake, legal remedies abound, and with a you may get to retire early on lawsuit proceeds. Asserting your legal rights, however, is done in a court of law, not in a p*ssing contest with officers on the scene. Armed resistance will get you hurt, killed or imprisoned, and nobody's going to buy the "I thought they were robbers" line.

[hogdogs]

I don't consider killin' any one enjoyable... heck killin' a deer ain't enjoyable but eating one is. But I have been given a limited time to run a bunch of thoughts through my head. I must draw the line... I have never heard of drug rip offs dressing as a cop and executing a fake warrant. I lived in the Orlando media market for 18 years and never once heard of such an elaborate plan. my gun will fire LONG before I have a chance to read a velcro "POLICE" banner on their ASSAULT duds! Since I am not engaged in illicit or illegal activity I can SAFELY determine that there is NO REASON for a police/swat presence... I may need a lawyer to prove this but like I said INTEL is more important than EXECUTION of said warrant. Mistakes can cost lives... mine included... the powers that be need to make sure they INVADE the right house. NEVER take the word of a person of less than reputable character as GOSPEL yes take his info and follow up with intel!
Once that has been covered my address is off the list!
My family depends on my legal character as well as my ability to defend themselves and our home. I cover my end of the deal now my local LEOs need to cover their end of the deal.
Brent

[Yellowfin]

Having read TSR's post, my response is this. I completely agree that as it is, the vast majority of people including myself have absolutely zero to fear as it stands. The problem I see is in the scenario which has substantial historical backing, not recent and not here, but recurring over the course of time. What happens when the crime they are pursuing is simply being a gun owner, or really, whatever they want to label you as? What happens when it is the real McCoy AND IN THAT SPECIFIC INSTANCE THEY HAPPENED TO BE THE BAD GUY and they do know exactly what they're doing? The concept is not dead. Millions of people elsewhere, however, are. I'm not going with conjecture or opinion, I'm going with what has happened lots of times in lots of places and it's documented. I don't fear accidental or a fake raid nearly as much as I do a deliberate but unjust one, not because of the malevolent intent of those executing it but those ordering it. I don't have the slightest question about the character, dedication, etc. of the vast majority of LE, particularly in the specialized units. I am far from alone here in having serious questions about the people who tell them what to do, as well I should. Nuremburg was full of police doing their duty. That's not paranoia, that's forecasting based on history. Sure, we technically have the Constitution, but just as laws don't deter common criminals, we have seen time and time again just how much a deterrent it really is when someone with some power really wants something. I actually don't even know of many cases of anyone successfully correcting a figure of power on legality of what they were and reversing their course of action on the spot...but know several cases of failure.

So, we're back to square one. It's not a problem at all when someone walks into your house with a firearm. Everyone thus far I've had has been someone going hunting or to the range with me or it's their daily CCW. Authority--even imaginary or perceived--is potentially far worse a deadly weapon. Thus far everyone I've known carrying that around has been amicable, ethical, and judicious in wielding it. Misuse of either is not commonplace in our everyday lives or we wouldn't be here, most likely. However, every one of us here thinks of and prepares for statistically unlikely events in the name of prudence and dealing with them with use of effective mitigating measures in the name of survival. Submission and hoping you don't die isn't much of a defense, and it doesn't seem to be method preferred by most here when dealing with the unauthorized criminals. It certainly doesn't work as a defense when deliberate harm is the intended goal in the first place. I make that distinction very carefully and specifically. An authorized crime is no different than an ordinary crime in end result, and that end result in either case is what I am responsible to myself and to my family to prevent happening.

[greywolf444]

while working on my boat in my backyard I heard and saw about a dozen pair of black boots run thru my yard. thru my gate, thru garden, past my boat,my property ,ran toward my house. I'm thinking about my wife and two toddlers inside as I rolled out from under the boat, still holding a hand sledge I approached the threat and demanded answers. Who are you and why are you here. all my questions where ignored. as I realized that these were cops it just made me angery. these clowns were positioned outside my house preparing to kick down my door, and I'm being ignored? I was loud enough that my wife came to the door and finally one of them said why they were there. These a**holes were at the wrong house and really didn't care. I've never trusted cops and now think even less of them.

[Stevie-Ray]

The problem I see is in the scenario which has substantial historical backing, not recent and not here, but recurring over the course of time. What happens when the crime they are pursuing is simply being a gun owner, or really, whatever they want to label you as? What happens when it is the real McCoy AND IN THAT SPECIFIC INSTANCE THEY HAPPENED TO BE THE BAD GUY and they do know exactly what they're doing?

It just happened a few years ago in New Orleans. It surprises me that it took this long to surface. What about that, guys? What happens when you hear, "Police...we're here for your guns!" I don't even like to think about that, but it's something that can't be overlooked. Yes, there are laws against it, but criminals don't obey laws; why should we expect public officials to? Possibly some police won't enforce that type of action, but some may use the tired old saw, "Sorry buddy, I'm the NRA too, I'm just doin my job."
I wouldn't work as a LEO. Though my job is statistically more dangerous than theirs, they can have it. And they have my gratitude that they have the guts to do it everyday.

[grey sky]

I am only about a third of the way through the CATO artical. I have notice some here ofer that the truth will come out in court. That may be difficult as according to the artical often part of the raid includes confiscation of ALL assets even if it's the wrong address. that makes it difficult to bring a court chalenge unless you can find an attorney who works for free or will take the case on a contengent still; one is looking at taking a substancial loss regaurdless of outcome. It is a loose loose scenario for the inocent citizen. Beg for their mercy but don't expect there tobe any.

[TexasSeaRay]

It just happened a few years ago in New Orleans. It surprises me that it took this long to surface. What about that, guys? What happens when you hear, "Police...we're here for your guns!" I don't even like to think about that, but it's something that can't be overlooked.

In my opinion, the cops who went door to door confiscating guns should sit in the same federal prison cells as the politicians and numbnuts communist crooked scumbag that passes as a mayor in New Orleans.

One thing that was emphasized to us in our academy way back when was that we did NOT have to follow unlawful, illegal or unconstitutional orders. Period. Were such orders pushed upon us and retaliation threatened, hinted at or implied for noncompliance, we were to contact the civil-affairs division of the U.S. Attorney's Office immediately, followed by the OPR office.

I draw no distinction with law enforcement "just following orders" be those orders to take away someone's gun for no reason at all other than a paranoid mayor and chief of police, or orders to begin executing jaywalkers on the spot.

Illegal is illegal. Unlawful is unlawful. And unconstitutional is unconstitutional.

Unless I'm missing something, a cop swears an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. Some oaths include to the effect of faithfully enforce all laws and protect all rights.

Every single sordid individual in that New Orleans case violated citizens' civil rights. They did it wantonly, purposefully, without any valid or legal or constitutional reason whatsover and with zero constitutional authority.

That's my take on that.

For those of you who boast about shooting it out with the police if they kick in your door mistakenly--and whether you know or don't know if they're police, I'll believe it when I see it.

During my time, I was on raids where we "invaded" (with legal search/arrest warants) homes filled with Crips, Bloods, MS13, South American cartel enforcers, Aryan Nation wackos, Hells Angels, Banditos, Sons of Silence, Texas Mafia, Cuban Marisols and countless meth operations and crack houses, etc etc.

None of these folks were afraid of pulling a trigger and most HAD pulled a trigger, and more than once. These were people to whom shooting and killing wasn't a big deal--just part of the price of doing business. They all had much to lose by getting arrested, with most looking at very lengthy prison terms in a very uncomfortable federal correctional institute.

RARELY did any of these proven shooters and killers fire back at us, or other agents who went on similar raids. These were people to whom violence was simply a way of life and they were as comfortable with it as they were combing their hair every morning.

Yet we have accountants and teachers and white-collar types here stating that even if they know it's the police, simply because the police have no reason to be there, they're gonna by-gawd grab their gun and go down in a blaze of glory.

Tell you what: If your wish is to die stupid, then your wish will be granted.

Wrong home/address and how on earth could it possibly happen?

Anyone here ever heard of Identity Theft? Anyone here ever heard of bad guys stealing ID's and driver's licenses, picture ID's, etc? Anyone here ever heard of criminals giving any address that comes to mind?

Anyone here ever hear of duplicate identities?

Yeah, mistakes happen and when they end up tragically, heads should roll and butts should slide right into a little five by eight foot living accomodation.

When I began getting a little seniority, I made damned sure that our intelligence was spot-on before we went knock-knocking. I also made sure our subjects were home. And if there were kids in the premises, that often-times changed everything. We called OFF raids because of children.

I was the rule in law enforcment, not the exception. Not only did I put my ass on the line every time I walked out my front door, but I also gave a damn about trying to get bad guys out of decent society so that good people didn't have to worry about them. So did the vast majority of other agents, troopers, deputies and officers I knew and interacted with.

So some of you are going to tell me and the other very few present or former LE types that visit here that you'd STILL SHOOT AT ME if we

A) knocked on your door and announced who we were and

B) you didn't answer the door, forcing us to take it down, and

C) we come in shouting who we were and that we had a warrant and we were properly identified . . .

you'd still try and SHOOT and KILL ME because some pukebag had snagged your identity off the internet and given it as an address right before he went and robbed a restaurant, lined up the employees and shot them execution style?

Why not just shoot the next cop who pulls you over for a speeding ticket or for running a red light when you're certain that you did no such thing?

And yet some of you still complain about the "us and them" mentality of LE. Well, I don't defend it with cops, but some of y'all sure as hell ain't helping it get any better yourselves.

Jeff

[Capt. Charlie]

It just happened a few years ago in New Orleans. It surprises me that it took this long to surface. What about that, guys? What happens when you hear, "Police...we're here for your guns!" I don't even like to think about that, but it's something that can't be overlooked.

Totally different subject guys. And yeah, all involved in that were WAY outta line.

But, lets keep this to only one can o' worms at a time, OK?

[tv_dir]

I'm not a big fan of cops myself. Traffic cops that is. I respect the hell out of people like Jeff who risk their lives 24/7 to protect the rest of us. Are mistakes made? Sure, we're all human and it is a huge tragedy when it does.

If we were able to vote on traffic laws, most would be tossed out with some exceptions like school zones etc. then we could put more LEO's on the street like Jeff so LESS mistakes would occur.

My last thought....and hopefully the majority will agree...If the police come banging at MY door....I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE! That thought got lost somewhere in this post.

--Mike--

[FrontSight]

Jeff,

Wish I could look you in the eye, shake your hand and say thank you for all you've done.

[hogdogs]

Jeff, I have spent my fair amount of time riding with the likes of the HA, banditos, warlocks, S.O.S. and other groups I never was keen on commiting felonies. Now the scenario of a nice peace officer giving a neighborly knock on my door waiting for the porch light to illuminate their mug for ID reasons will be granted with a friendly opening of said door. I will step out. If they have a search warrant I will gladly read it and be ready to explain wrong address, wrong person, wrong crime etc. It is the "no knock" or impatient implementation of warrant that will cause us all grief. If my door is kicked in I can safely assume it ain't my friendly peace officer's boot doing the deed! I have no choice but to shoot at a home invader. Identity theft be darned.... That is just to miniscule an odds that I don't even weigh it in to the equation. My next of kin can sue for the mistake. My life has little to do with stepping up and defending my home.
I respect respectful LEO's!
Brent

[zxcvbob]

Jeff,
I mean no disrespect by this, but how can you burst into someone's house (warrant or not) with a military-style assault and expect to *not* be shot at? Of course we are going to try to shoot you -- that's the game *you* started and we are just playing along.

In post #12 you said a "dynamic entry" could even be used for something as minor as serving a warrant for unpaid parking tickets.

If you don't want to get shot at, knock on the door like a civilized human being. (that's a good way to resolve a lot of the problems with raids on the wrong address, etc.)

[HankB]

Nobody in my household has anything to do with illegal drugs, kiddie porn, robbing banks, printing counterfeit money, smuggling illegal aliens, shady tax dodges, passing bad checks, ignoring a jury duty summons, having unpaid parking tickets, or anything else of the kind. Hence, there is no conceivable reason for police to be serving a warrant at my home.

So unless there are a bunch of marked units with flashing Mars lights on top outside my house, it's virtually certain that anyone attempting to break in is NOT doing so with a valid warrant.

If I know it's police - again, uniforms, marked squad cars, etc., will be a pretty good indicator - upon presentation of a valid warrant, I WILL peacefully comply; much better to fight the police in court, rather than elsewhere.

But lacking the above, if someone is kicking in my door, unless I wake up to find a half-dozen MP5SDs pointed at my head - I WILL reasonably conclude that they are bad guys and, if capable, fire upon them.

(There HAVE been incidents right here in TX of FAKE POLICE - complete with shirts emblazoned "POLICE" on the front - so it's not a far-out theoretical supposition that guys breaking in are NOT bona-fide LEOs serving a lawful warrant. Especially if my driveway isn't full of squad cars.)

[Stevie-Ray]

But, lets keep this to only one can o' worms at a time, OK?

Sorry, Cap'n, my bad.

Jeff seems to have handled the question with aplomb, though and I appreciate it.

As far as locking horns with the police goes; unless I'm positive it's not the police, through some means like previous knowledge of fake cops in the area, with vehicles like the ones parked outside, I'm answering the door quite amiably, or hitting the deck-their preference. I've got a handicapped wife to think about protecting. Who the hell's going to protect her if I needlessly throw my life away?

[TexasSeaRay]

I mean no disrespect by this, but how can you burst into someone's house (warrant or not) with a military-style assault and expect to *not* be shot at? Of course we are going to try to shoot you -- that's the game *you* started and we are just playing along.

First off, please try and be intelligent about this and what you are attempting to say. Otherwise, this is how conspiracist paranoia grows even more hysterical.

You cannot burst into someone's house, "military-style assault" (whatever THAT is . . .) without a warrant. If we--the police--are not already in pursuit because we have witnesed the actual commission of a felony AND believe you, the suspect, to be an immediate danger to the community, we can't just round up a bunch of guys, throw some vests on them, hand them black guns and go kick your door in for the helluva it.

I also don't believe this was ever implied or stated or directly sourced. So if you want answers or insight to a situation that occurs to one in every fifteen million citizens, may I respectfully suggest sticking to facts rather than conjecture?

The second part of your statement also tells me all I need to know.

Serving warrants is not a game. Raiding someone's private home, their residence, it is not a game. It is serious stuff. Trying to serve warrants on and arrest dangerous cartel enforcers or Aryan Brother hood thugs or MS13 assassins is about as much of a game as joining the Army and going to Iraq to play with IEDs.

I dunno. Maybe you prefer the robbers and rapists and killers to stay on the streets and in the neighborhoods. If so, get enough of you together and let your police know that since it's all just a "game," no need to play it anymore.

In post #12 you said a "dynamic entry" could even be used for something as minor as serving a warrant for unpaid parking tickets.

I said no such thing. Not even close.

This is a perfect example of how so much bullyou-know-what gets spread around via the iternet. Selective reading, selective comprehension.

What I SAID was that if you don't want a visit in the wee hours of the morning, pay your tickets or fines that you owe and then make sure any warrants that may have been issued are cleared.

If you don't want to get shot at, knock on the door like a civilized human being. (that's a good way to resolve a lot of the problems with raids on the wrong address, etc.)

According to someone who read the CATO report and calculated the odds/occurrences of police going to a wrong address, they came out to, what, one in fifteen million?

For the record, I do not believe in no-knock warrants in any shape, form or fashion. We were NOT allowed to utilize them in our (federal) agency--and nobody really wanted to.

As far as the "knock, announce and two seconds later kick the door in," anyone have any idea how many times I've heard the toilet start flushing the very second we would knock on the door and yell, "POLICE--SPECIAL AGENTS WITH A SEARCH WARRANT! OPEN UP!!!"

There were also people who swore not to be taken alive, and we believed them. They had a history of violence. Why would I want to politely knock, announce myself and then wait to be invited in when I have a legal, sworn warrant for their arrest?

Since when did hardened, dangerous criminals suddenly become passive, accomodating pussycats the minute you politely knock, identify yourself and with manners that would make even Emily Post blush, patiently explain to the murdering rapist that you are arresting him, trying him and going to try and put him in a very small prison cell for the rest of his life?

Why, hell. I never it knew it could be or should be that easy. Some of you guys need to start your own police agencies and bounty hunter outfits. You'd be zillionaires overnight you're so smart, insightful and obviously experienced at catching and apprehending bad guys.

Here's another something to chew over: For those of you who said you'd shoot back, yet also said you weren't cognizant enough in the wee hours after being woken up out of a sound sleep to know if they were real police or not so you'd just shoot anyway, by-gawd, you won't have time to even know what just happened before you got a bright light in your face and a gun aimed at you.

One thing I learned in the service and then later on in LE is that it is pretty damned difficult to to draw your weapon and get the drop on somebody who already has their weapon pointed and aimed at you.

Come on. Let's have a little common sense here as gun owners.

One in fifteen million is a little too much for me to start obsessing over how I'll shoot first and ask questions later as to whether or not the "invaders" were real cops or not.

Know what else? I was pretty decent at what I did in the service, and I was pretty good at what I did in LE, and I'm a pretty good shot who's been tested numerous times under fire. And you know what? *I* ain't gonna get into a shootout with a SWAT team who kicked in the wrong door and woke me up from a sound sleep in which I was dreaming about $5/5000 Winchester primers.

I'm gonna do what the damn cops say.

Of course, they could be fake cops. Ordered to my house by Elvis. Who is controlled by the CIA chip in his head.

Jeff

[Powderman]

Ah, what the heck.....

Because law enforcement has become militarized.

True, to an extent. But, have you stopped to ask WHY we started to assume the tactics and to a lesser extent, the dress of the military?

Here is some insight.

First question: You are an officer on regular patrol, within your assigned sector. You hear a priority broadcast; a bank has just been robbed. The perps are known to be armed with the following: 1. At least one AR15 rifle. 2. At least one HK91 rifle. 3. Various handguns. 4. A LOT of ammunition.

You hear that these criminals are engaging patrol cars and police officers ON SIGHT. They have also commandeered a DOT truck, and at least two of them are shooting from the back of the vehicle--an elevated, moderately protected shooting platform, VERY hard to stop.

You are armed with the standard load out--your service REVOLVER--a .357 Magnum handgun, loaded with .38 +P rounds. You have TWO complete reloads. You have an Ithaca M37 pump shotgun, with 00 buck and slugs.

You have NO body armor.

And, to put the icing on the cake, the last broadcast put the perps on the same road you are on, HEADING YOUR WAY.

Peachy, isn't it? Retreat is NOT an option. You have sworn the oath, and you are wearing the badge of a Police Officer. You WILL stand and fight, regardless of the odds.

Scary isn't it? Want to hear what happened?

Do a search for the Norco Bank Robbery, in California.

Second question:

You and another officer are in a two man car, and you receive a notification that a car of a certain description just committed a crime of violence. You see a car fitting that description just ahead. You turn on your lights, the car pulls over. You get out of the car in your clean, crisp uniform, carrying your duty weapon--again, the revolver loaded with .38 Special ammunition. Since you are mindful of the public image of your Department, you walk right up to the car, intending to investigate, and if necessary, arrest the individuals. What could go wrong?

Want to find out what went wrong?

Look up the Newhall Massacre.

We, as police officers HAD to change, because the CRIMINALS we go after changed.

Why do we wear all the high speed tactical gear, the hoods and masks?

Partially, it's to protect the face from flying particles and other moderately nasty stuff. And yes--the other reason is because it's to mask our identities.

You see, the criminals of today have NO compunction about finding out EVERY THING about you. And they'll come after you, OR your family.

Why the heavy duty body armor? Because plain clothing doesn't stop rifle bullets very well, thank you very much.

Why the heavy weaponry? Because it's common sense--you meet force with superior force.

And, why the no-knock, dynamic entries? Because the bad guys are a LOT less liable to shoot back if you catch them flat footed.

BDU's and jumpsuits are a LOT more comfortable to wear than the standard uniform. Don't get me wrong--I like looking sharp, too. Nothing looks better to me than the pressed uniform with accoutrements, shined shoes, clean leather gear and a nice Smokey hat with braid. Give me a good old solid wood nightstick, too.

But guess what? The first time you have to go hands on with someone--and go to the ground--or, like in my Department, you have to pull an unattended net full of stinking fish, that uniform ain't going to be so good looking afterward. If you mess up the BDU's--oh well! They're durable and cheap.

I honestly don't know why I even replied to this thread--it's going downhill, despite the best efforts of the mods to keep it civil. Oh, well; perhaps my post--and the other posts here--will make some folks think. If not--we'll still be here. Good day.

[pax]

I think that's a pretty good note to end this thread on.

A sincere "thank you" to everyone who kept it civil and productive.

pax