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View Poll Results: Heroin addict threatens you with a AIDs needle
Deadly force is justified....engage BG 65 95.59%
Give up car, clothes, money..... 3 4.41%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 18, 2007, 04:17 PM   #1
Duxman
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Deadly force or no?

Watched a variant of this in a movie - and am wondering what one should do in this scenario:

You are walking along the street - when a heroin addict threatens you with a supposed "AIDs" infected syringe needle.

You are trapped. The only way out is through the BG.

Do you comply with demands (clothes, car keys, money) or engage with your CC weapon?
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Old June 18, 2007, 04:20 PM   #2
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Neither?
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Old June 18, 2007, 05:34 PM   #3
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Ask yourself: Can you reasonably justify that your life is in immediate danger based upon the circumstances?

The answer is clear to me, but may not be to someone else. Everyone has their own threshold.
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Old June 18, 2007, 05:38 PM   #4
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Who knows what sort of bodily injury the addict plans on inflicting. I would pull and shoot if he continues to advance.
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Old June 18, 2007, 07:08 PM   #5
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There are several things to try. One is tossing him 'fake' wallet, and while he's retrieving it, run. Another option might be drawing, while demanding that he STOP. If he continued advancing, then shoot to wound - enough to allow escape. Maybe you could even offer him some heroin... then kick him in the nuts when he came to get it.
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Old June 18, 2007, 07:36 PM   #6
sdj
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More than one way to skin a cat...

Just toss him a bag of heroin and he'll move along.
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Old June 18, 2007, 07:44 PM   #7
enikkor
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C'mon

Just pull a gun, you don't have to shoot, and he will prob. run.

In my book, pulling and shooting is a last resort, there is no other way
but do it. An addict with a needle, I'll run away and pull the gun but not shoot or threaten to shoot.
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Old June 18, 2007, 07:46 PM   #8
The Biker
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Most of the smack freaks I've known were slow and weak - a three year old with a sharp popsickle stick could take 'em out.
No need for a gun, really.
Go upside his head and vacate the area.

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Old June 18, 2007, 08:50 PM   #9
Southern_guy
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If
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Old June 18, 2007, 08:52 PM   #10
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If someone is threatning to kill me, and I have a gun, he going to have to spend a night in the hospital.
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Old June 19, 2007, 12:58 AM   #11
gvf
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Do the usual

This situation is so common that you just do the usual SOP for civilians threatened with claimed HIV-needles.. How could their be a question?
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Old June 19, 2007, 01:52 AM   #12
David Armstrong
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Give up the goods. If that doesn't work and he still threatens you, then you can shoot him. But no real need to start with the deadly force option, save it for when it is needed.
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Old June 19, 2007, 04:52 AM   #13
03Shadowbob
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If I were in that situation then I would draw and give him 2 options. I don't like it when someone makes me choose between 2 things, usually.
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Old June 19, 2007, 06:19 AM   #14
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I voted to draw on him. If he advances, shoot him. One less drug addict on the street. Lets not get started on the whole legalizing drugs thing. This addict was clearly threatening someone else with a potentially deadly weapon. Frankly, I would much rather be shot in the head and die quickly than waste away slowly from AIDS. I'm not going to sympathize with this guy and just hand him some money. He has already shown that he is willing to threaten someone with a "contaminated needle" (thats a deadly in my book). Why should I give him money and let him go on his merry way?

Do you give hoodlums and punks money if they threaten you with deadly force? Not me. Its not that I don't value life (other people's lives) over property. My concern is that my life is being threatened with deadly force. Sure, they may just take the money and leave, but there have been far too many cases where they shoot you like a dog after taking your money and leave you to die. They will feel no remorse and will just go on to their next victim. I say do the world a favor and take out any scumbag that threatens you with deadly force.
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Old June 19, 2007, 06:49 AM   #15
Overhill
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There is one thing omitted. If he was to demand your money,clothes and car keys, why wouldn't he also demand the gun? Now what do you do?
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Old June 19, 2007, 07:55 AM   #16
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Do society a favor and shoot the loser.
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Old June 19, 2007, 08:37 AM   #17
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I voted to shoot, but the decision isn't all that simple:

1. If he's close enough to threaten you with a hypodermic needle, you WILL get stabbed with it if you make sudden threatening moves (like drawing a firearm). What's your distraction plan to conceal your move until you can engage?

2. For those who chose "draw and challenge" options - see above. This goes back to the Tueller Drill - inside 21' you WILL get cut (or, in this case, poked with an HIV infected needle) before you can draw and shoot.

I voted prematurely, based on the title regarding if this is a Deadly Force situation. Is deadly force justified in this case? Sure. Is it the best idea? Almost certainly not. I'm scared witless of HIV - and would gladly give up my wallet/watch/keys to avoid getting poked with a bloody needle. The only thing that I think would "force my hand" is the demand for clothes - obviously when my pistol becomes visible it'd be game on.

Of course, this is just my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it...

Regards,

Kevin
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Old June 19, 2007, 08:40 AM   #18
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Haven't there been court ruleings that men who knew they were infected and had sex thereby infecting their partners can be charged with homocide or similar?
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Old June 19, 2007, 08:53 AM   #19
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I would draw and hope that would be all the deterrent I need.
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Old June 19, 2007, 09:25 AM   #20
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I would draw and shoot, the fact the man is holding around a syringe (aids or not) is enough of a threat and can be used as a deadly weapon. The fact the syringe is infected with HIV is more than enough reason for me to use deadly force. I don't know what my circumstances would be in court but i'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.
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Old June 19, 2007, 09:30 AM   #21
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Evade, then pepper spray.
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Old June 19, 2007, 09:36 AM   #22
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Quote:
Just toss him a bag of heroin and he'll move along.

+1... I'm pretty sure all of us carry a little dime bag right there with our CCW holsters for that reason and that reason alone.
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Old June 19, 2007, 10:50 AM   #23
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If he is within 21', which he would be to make such a threat where you have no way of escape, you are in as much danger as if he had a knife, gun, or nuclear weapon. You have only one option.
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Old June 19, 2007, 12:17 PM   #24
AAshooter
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This is an interesting situation but in my mind the use of deadly force is questionable. Ignoring the HIV element, I think it is a hard sell that a typical syringe (not some monster syringe) is a deadly weapon. It is likely not even to penetrate your clothing during a scuffle and if it did it would most likely do little harm assuming you where taking defensive action.

Could he be successful? Sure, it is possible. However, anyone with a pen or a toothpick could be a similar threat.

Even if the syringe has been exposed to HIV, you are unlikely to get HIV from the syringe if you were stabbed. Is it possible? Sure . . . but I think the odds are in your favor.

Given that most fist fights do not justify the use of deadly force (even though there is a remote possibility that you will killed), I question whether you could sell the use of deadly force in this situation, at least in California. Clearly if there were are series of escalations, it might be different story. But, to just pull out your blaster and tag him on his first threat would be a hard sell in a criminal and civil case.

I would be interested if any police officers in the group would be authorized to use deadly force in this situation.
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Old June 19, 2007, 12:18 PM   #25
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Quote:
If he is within 21', which he would be to make such a threat where you have no way of escape, you are in as much danger as if he had a knife, gun, or nuclear weapon. You have only one option.
Finally some tactical reality. Ditto.
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