Checking a load-New reloader

montana09 · April 30, 2018, 07:26 PM

I'm new to reloading and had a question about checking a load. First I'll start by saying that I know no matter what I should triple check any load against a manual (I'm actually checking against multiple manuals) before actually loading and firing it. I'm having issues finding any agreeance on a recipe for reloading 125 gr Berry's plated flat point bullets using Unique powder and Winchester Small Pistol Primers for .38 special. (Yes I know there are faster burning, cleaner, or other powders you prefer, I asked this question in a different website and all they did was focus on the powder and didn't offer much for advice). I know that the OAL length should be 1.445" and I should only use a light crimp but that's all any manuals seem to agree on. For data Berry's says to use the data for 125 gr cast or FMJ loads.

Where I'm running into an issue is that no one manual or manufacturer's website can seem to agree on a load. I've seen data recommending anywhere from 4.5 to 6.5 grains of Unique for 125 gr bullets. Alliant's website recommends 5.7 grains of Unique for Speers GDHP but that's the only load data they have for Unique in this bullet weight. I planned to start at 5 grains and work my way up a few rounds at a time. I'm just basically asking if anyone has used this powder and bullets together before to make sure that this won't end up being a squib load or blow up, I plan to triple check anything I load against several manuals before I do. Thanks!

Nick_C_S · April 30, 2018, 07:56 PM

Welcome to TFL.

Quote:

if anyone has used this powder and bullets together before.

Yes I have. Or "am," I guess. I phrase it that way because I am on the tail end of completing the work up.

I'm working on a full +P jacketed 125, and a slightly detuned plated version. The plated is done - which is what you are asking about specifically.

I have decided on 5.8 grains of Unique with my 125 plated bullet at 1.445" OAL (Berry's recommendation). Yields 976 f/s though a 4" bbl. Runs real nice.

The remainder of the work up is to use a jacketed bullet. I prefer to use a jacketed bullet when I get up near the top of the +P realm. But it may not be necessary. Anyway, for the full +P, I will likely settle on a charge weight that may be a little beyond jacketed published data, so I'll refrain from specific charge weights. For the record, I generally don't hot rod ammo, but 38+P is a bit of an exception. My Smith model 67 is plenty strong enough to go slightly beyond. The model 66 is virtually the same gun, and it's a 357.

Quote:

I planned to start at 5 grains and work my way up a few rounds at a time.

That's probably a good way to go. I hope it gives you some peace of mind for you to see what I am doing. I'm even using Winchester primers (WSP). BTW, I've been loading 38 Special since 1984. So I got some 'xperience

.

montana09 · April 30, 2018, 08:09 PM

Thank you very much that's exactly what I'm looking for!

603Country · April 30, 2018, 08:13 PM

With plated bullets, most folks recommend using loads for cast lead bullets. That didn’t work that well for me in my 9mm, since starting loads wouldn’t cycle the action, which isn’t a problem you’ll face. Still, i’d start with a mild load of Unique and cast bullet loads. As for the crimp, don’t crimp it to the degree that you cut through the plating. And i wouldn’t load them very hot. Save that for the jacketed bullets.

AL45 · April 30, 2018, 09:12 PM

What revolver are you firing it from? If it's a Ruger Redhawk or Blackhawk, you have a little extra degree of safety because they are both built like tanks. This is not to say that you can go crazy though. I also agree to start in the 5 grain area and work up. I checked my Lyman, Lee and Hornady reloading manuals and the maximum load listed is 6 grains for a 125 grain jacketed bullet, not plated.

montana09 · April 30, 2018, 09:54 PM

I'll initially be firing it in a 4 5/8" Ruger New Model Blackhawk, so I figured that there would be some safety net there. After I get that down and set I also plan to shoot them in a 4" barreled S&W 686-6, both pretty modern and new. Not really trying for anything other than steel plate plinking so not planning to push +P range. No plans to shoot them in any older firearms. Thanks for all the advice everyone much more pleasant than my question in the different forum!

Nick_C_S · April 30, 2018, 10:37 PM

Heh. Yeah, you're going to shoot these in two burly 357 Magnum revolvers. You have considerable safety headroom

.

Quote:

This is not to say that you can go crazy though.

. . ^^ With that caveat.

Anyway, I mentioned doing my work up. I always run 38 Special work ups using a 686 4". Once I am convinced they're not excessive pressure, THEN I do the finishing tests in my M67 4" (a 38 Spl) to see how they preform in the intended gun.

montana09 · April 30, 2018, 10:50 PM

Yep! haha those are the only two .38 caliber revolvers I own so that's all I'll be using them in, but I have no plans to go crazy. Eventually once I'm more confident in my reloading abilities and buy some more dies I plan to start loading for .45 colt for my other New Model Blackhawk, the cost of .45 colt is why I got into reloading in the first place!

AL45 · May 1, 2018, 09:15 PM

You will love reloading .45 Colt in your Blackhawk. I've loaded from 200 grain Granny loads to 350 grain monster loads in my Blackhawk and Redhawk. Recoil actually isn't unpleasant, but I would hate to be on the other end.LOL

Jim Watson · May 1, 2018, 10:04 PM

There's no need to "work up" to any resposibly published .38 Special load for use in a .357 Magnum revolver. There is about an 80% "safety margin."

Nathan · May 2, 2018, 04:34 AM

I would try 4.5, 5.0,5.5,6.0 and 6.5. I would shoot a group of 5 of each and let the gun tell you what it likes on a 15 yd target. Check velocities with a chrony and add SD to your data points to decide what your final lad is.

After that, let's say 5.5 was best, then try 4.9,5.2,5.5,5.8,6.1.....did 5.5 win again? If not, take the best an reduce to .1 gr increments.

Nick_C_S · May 4, 2018, 05:12 PM

Montana09, I completed my 125gn/Unique work up today.

As part of the work up, I ran the final test on the 125 PFP's w/ 5.8 grains of unique. The 20-round sample clocked in at 973 f/s. That is great because these were "production powder drops," not trickled to the exact 5.8 grains like last time; and they were within 3 f/s to the exact-weighted test rounds. So this load is set. 5.8gn is a great place for these. They shoot nice - right on the beginning edge of +P. Next time out, I'll just shoot them without the chronograph and just have fun with them. Looking forward to it.

Also completed, was the JHP version. These exceed Speer #14 (6.0gn), so . . .

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

And to use my own words: I am posting this only to share my experience and information; not to endorse any loading practice that exceeds reliable published information.

I tested the plated FP bullets through my Model 67 4", up to 6.0 grains on 3/19:

5.8gn = 976 f/s
6.0gn = 998 f/s

I then switched to my 686 4" (for safety) and JHP's on 4/19 for the following:

6.2gn = 1052 f/s
6.4gn = 1083 f/s
6.6gn = 1095 f/s

After I decided that these weren't crazy magnum hot, I then tested them today, going back to the Model 67 (the intended firearm for the loading):

6.4gn = 1063 f/s
6.6gn = 1075 f/s

Interesting that the results were exactly 20 f/s slower for both, compared to the 686. The 6.6gn loading was just beginning to take on a bit of a magnum-like boom, and that's not what I'm looking for. So I have decided on 6.4 grains to be the "set" loading. Keep in mind that I won't shoot a lot of these through my K-frame. They are for occasional use - i.e. two or three cylinder's worth at the end of a shooting day.

BTW, QuickLoad guesstimates the pressure of the 6.6gn loading at only 17.7Kpsi. I know QL does some wonky things with pistol cartridges; so I suspect the real peak pressure is something higher. Point is, these loadings aren't crazy hot.

montana09 · May 12, 2018, 02:49 PM

Just thought I'd drop in and let everyone know about my progress. I loaded up some test ammo and settled on 5.5 grains of unique with the Berry's bullets, seems to work great out of my handguns, decent snap and very accurate. My question is that I'm noticing some variation with my OAL. The OAL varies from 1.442" to 1.448". I don't trim my cartridge cases and the test loads were loaded with a mixture of PPU, MAGTECH, and Winchester cases, so I assume that this is where I'm getting the variation. Is the tiny variation enough to worry about?

gwpercle · May 12, 2018, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montana09

Just thought I'd drop in and let everyone know about my progress. I loaded up some test ammo and settled on 5.5 grains of unique with the Berry's bullets, seems to work great out of my handguns, decent snap and very accurate. My question is that I'm noticing some variation with my OAL. The OAL varies from 1.442" to 1.448". I don't trim my cartridge cases and the test loads were loaded with a mixture of PPU, MAGTECH, and Winchester cases, so I assume that this is where I'm getting the variation. Is the tiny variation enough to worry about?

QAL's with straight sided revolver calibers and plated bullets are not all that critical,
a .006 variance . The length of most plated bullets will vary this much in length.
Where the seating stem contacts the bullet is giving the variance. Sit down and measure plated bullets and you will see they vary in these dimensions.
The case length should not affect OAL , the OAL is determined from base to end of bullet.
It's OK , nothing to worry about...you're doing just fine.

Are you seating and crimping in one step ? If so , you might want to try seating in one step and crimping in a separate step. I do this and use a taper crimp die from a 9mm luger die set to taper crimp the smooth sided plated bullets .
Gary

montana09 · May 12, 2018, 06:44 PM

Thanks!

Paladin7 · May 24, 2018, 04:51 PM

Just something to keep in mind... There is a BIG difference between a Plated bullet and a Jacketed bullet.

I use specific data for the Berry's Plated Bullet from the Hodgdon Manual which lists this bullet specifically.

When comparing data from manuals that don't list the specific Berry's Plated Bullet you are loading, then check the data for Hardcast Lead Bullets.

Hope this helps...

April 30, 2018, 09:12 PM	#5
AL45 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2012 Posts: 761	What revolver are you firing it from? If it's a Ruger Redhawk or Blackhawk, you have a little extra degree of safety because they are both built like tanks. This is not to say that you can go crazy though. I also agree to start in the 5 grain area and work up. I checked my Lyman, Lee and Hornady reloading manuals and the maximum load listed is 6 grains for a 125 grain jacketed bullet, not plated. Last edited by AL45; April 30, 2018 at 09:45 PM.

May 4, 2018, 05:12 PM	#12
Nick_C_S Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2013 Location: Idaho Posts: 5,523	Range Report Montana09, I completed my 125gn/Unique work up today. As part of the work up, I ran the final test on the 125 PFP's w/ 5.8 grains of unique. The 20-round sample clocked in at 973 f/s. That is great because these were "production powder drops," not trickled to the exact 5.8 grains like last time; and they were within 3 f/s to the exact-weighted test rounds. So this load is set. 5.8gn is a great place for these. They shoot nice - right on the beginning edge of +P. Next time out, I'll just shoot them without the chronograph and just have fun with them. Looking forward to it. Also completed, was the JHP version. These exceed Speer #14 (6.0gn), so . . . CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. And to use my own words: I am posting this only to share my experience and information; not to endorse any loading practice that exceeds reliable published information. I tested the plated FP bullets through my Model 67 4", up to 6.0 grains on 3/19: 5.8gn = 976 f/s 6.0gn = 998 f/s I then switched to my 686 4" (for safety) and JHP's on 4/19 for the following: 6.2gn = 1052 f/s 6.4gn = 1083 f/s 6.6gn = 1095 f/s After I decided that these weren't crazy magnum hot, I then tested them today, going back to the Model 67 (the intended firearm for the loading): 6.4gn = 1063 f/s 6.6gn = 1075 f/s Interesting that the results were exactly 20 f/s slower for both, compared to the 686. The 6.6gn loading was just beginning to take on a bit of a magnum-like boom, and that's not what I'm looking for. So I have decided on 6.4 grains to be the "set" loading. Keep in mind that I won't shoot a lot of these through my K-frame. They are for occasional use - i.e. two or three cylinder's worth at the end of a shooting day. BTW, QuickLoad guesstimates the pressure of the 6.6gn loading at only 17.7Kpsi. I know QL does some wonky things with pistol cartridges; so I suspect the real peak pressure is something higher. Point is, these loadings aren't crazy hot. __________________ Gun control laws benefit only criminals and politicians - but then, I repeat myself. Life Member, National Rifle Association Last edited by Nick_C_S; May 4, 2018 at 05:22 PM.

April 30, 2018, 07:26 PM	#1
montana09 Member Join Date: April 29, 2018 Posts: 55	Checking a load-New reloader I'm new to reloading and had a question about checking a load. First I'll start by saying that I know no matter what I should triple check any load against a manual (I'm actually checking against multiple manuals) before actually loading and firing it. I'm having issues finding any agreeance on a recipe for reloading 125 gr Berry's plated flat point bullets using Unique powder and Winchester Small Pistol Primers for .38 special. (Yes I know there are faster burning, cleaner, or other powders you prefer, I asked this question in a different website and all they did was focus on the powder and didn't offer much for advice). I know that the OAL length should be 1.445" and I should only use a light crimp but that's all any manuals seem to agree on. For data Berry's says to use the data for 125 gr cast or FMJ loads. Where I'm running into an issue is that no one manual or manufacturer's website can seem to agree on a load. I've seen data recommending anywhere from 4.5 to 6.5 grains of Unique for 125 gr bullets. Alliant's website recommends 5.7 grains of Unique for Speers GDHP but that's the only load data they have for Unique in this bullet weight. I planned to start at 5 grains and work my way up a few rounds at a time. I'm just basically asking if anyone has used this powder and bullets together before to make sure that this won't end up being a squib load or blow up, I plan to triple check anything I load against several manuals before I do. Thanks!

April 30, 2018, 08:09 PM	#3
montana09 Member Join Date: April 29, 2018 Posts: 55	Thank you very much that's exactly what I'm looking for!

April 30, 2018, 08:13 PM	#4
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	With plated bullets, most folks recommend using loads for cast lead bullets. That didn’t work that well for me in my 9mm, since starting loads wouldn’t cycle the action, which isn’t a problem you’ll face. Still, i’d start with a mild load of Unique and cast bullet loads. As for the crimp, don’t crimp it to the degree that you cut through the plating. And i wouldn’t load them very hot. Save that for the jacketed bullets.

April 30, 2018, 09:54 PM	#6
montana09 Member Join Date: April 29, 2018 Posts: 55	I'll initially be firing it in a 4 5/8" Ruger New Model Blackhawk, so I figured that there would be some safety net there. After I get that down and set I also plan to shoot them in a 4" barreled S&W 686-6, both pretty modern and new. Not really trying for anything other than steel plate plinking so not planning to push +P range. No plans to shoot them in any older firearms. Thanks for all the advice everyone much more pleasant than my question in the different forum!

April 30, 2018, 10:50 PM	#8
montana09 Member Join Date: April 29, 2018 Posts: 55	Yep! haha those are the only two .38 caliber revolvers I own so that's all I'll be using them in, but I have no plans to go crazy. Eventually once I'm more confident in my reloading abilities and buy some more dies I plan to start loading for .45 colt for my other New Model Blackhawk, the cost of .45 colt is why I got into reloading in the first place!

May 1, 2018, 09:15 PM	#9
AL45 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2012 Posts: 761	You will love reloading .45 Colt in your Blackhawk. I've loaded from 200 grain Granny loads to 350 grain monster loads in my Blackhawk and Redhawk. Recoil actually isn't unpleasant, but I would hate to be on the other end.LOL

May 1, 2018, 10:04 PM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	There's no need to "work up" to any resposibly published .38 Special load for use in a .357 Magnum revolver. There is about an 80% "safety margin."

May 2, 2018, 04:34 AM	#11
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	I would try 4.5, 5.0,5.5,6.0 and 6.5. I would shoot a group of 5 of each and let the gun tell you what it likes on a 15 yd target. Check velocities with a chrony and add SD to your data points to decide what your final lad is. After that, let's say 5.5 was best, then try 4.9,5.2,5.5,5.8,6.1.....did 5.5 win again? If not, take the best an reduce to .1 gr increments.

May 12, 2018, 02:49 PM	#13
montana09 Member Join Date: April 29, 2018 Posts: 55	Just thought I'd drop in and let everyone know about my progress. I loaded up some test ammo and settled on 5.5 grains of unique with the Berry's bullets, seems to work great out of my handguns, decent snap and very accurate. My question is that I'm noticing some variation with my OAL. The OAL varies from 1.442" to 1.448". I don't trim my cartridge cases and the test loads were loaded with a mixture of PPU, MAGTECH, and Winchester cases, so I assume that this is where I'm getting the variation. Is the tiny variation enough to worry about?

May 12, 2018, 06:44 PM	#15
montana09 Member Join Date: April 29, 2018 Posts: 55	Thanks!

May 24, 2018, 04:51 PM	#16
Paladin7 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2002 Posts: 109	Just something to keep in mind... There is a BIG difference between a Plated bullet and a Jacketed bullet. I use specific data for the Berry's Plated Bullet from the Hodgdon Manual which lists this bullet specifically. When comparing data from manuals that don't list the specific Berry's Plated Bullet you are loading, then check the data for Hardcast Lead Bullets. Hope this helps...