A completely psychotic load concept, sure to leave the coroner deeply puzzled <GRIN!> - Page 2

labgrade · September 4, 2002, 03:40 PM

OK, I'm back & much better now ...

If foiling forensics is the end result of the concept, I can think of many ways to do that better than anything "two-staged." 'Course (Psst, Mal .... is this a conspiracy "tyo violate?")

A best bet is a "choked-system" a la the screw in rifle chokes of a shotgun. Shoot a saboted round (there are many combos very available) & then just pitch the rifled choke. You leave behind a forensicly detail sabot (somehwre in the schene) but imprinted with the choke. Again - lose that thing.

That's shotguns.

I've noticed that some muzzleloader companies offer .45 cal sabots that accept 9mm/.38 cal bullets. I hope to someday start shooting 125 gr 9mm saboted bullets out of my .45 Colt Contender barrel way past 2500 fps - we'll see. 6mm can't be too far behind. (I have tried some various sabot'd rounds & was easily non-impressed with their accuracy. A 55 gr .223 cal in a .30 cal sabot, if nothing else, usually trashes the sky-screens toot sweet.

)

Still thinking that an off-the-shelf paper patch bullet has the best advantage of accuracy & most likely, with a bit of stay in the target, a goodly chance of removing forensics through "liquid contamination." (yuck) Choice of paper could better the time "down range."

Paper patching a pistol caliber would only entail using a shade of sub-caliber to allow the thickness of paper - too, I'm shooting cast rifle bullets that mike out at .3145" in a .308 barrel - nothing that can't be got around.

As with most things, the simpler usually works best (better).

Jim March · September 4, 2002, 05:39 PM

Actually, I'm thinking more in terms of performance than in messing with the ME's head - although I'd love to see a video of the autopsy where the guy pulls a bullet STILL IN THE SHELL out of some stiff

.

Just for the comedy value

.

But no, the whole point here is performance - somehow get "more burn" happening after the initial ignition and 2" of bullet travel.

Here's a weird thought: you have a hollow-base lead round flying along, already cleared muzzle, on target, spinning good, and now a secondary charge in it's butt end is finally kicked off by a fuse. Now what? Seems like the projectile just gets kicked forward some, and the previous hollow base now "flares out" to some additional diameter? Sorta like a backwards JHP that expands BEFORE hitting the target? It'd leave one hell of an entry wound

.

labgrade · September 4, 2002, 05:47 PM

Can't argue, Jim, but ...

Wouldn't using a suitable caliber & power factor do the job already?

Performance is always the prblem with handguns.

And, far as messin' with the C's head - have an unshot in yer pocket & after doing your own "autopsy," stuff in an unfired shotshell ....

Yeah, I know.

I dunno 'bout anything length-wise having anything close to being able to accomodate a burn-charge ralistically.

I'd go with a sub-caliber/"end-barrel" rifling system & just toss the end piece afterwards.

Chuck Dye · September 4, 2002, 06:27 PM

Years ago one of the rags (Shooting Times?) ran an article on paper patching modern ammo. As I recall, 100% rag paper strips were wrapped wet around a bullet, allowed to dry, then loaded. The system worked best if the bullet had been lightly scored by rolling it between two files so the rifling gripped the paper, the paper gripped the bullet. Several loads were tested, .284" bullets in .30 calibre cases and rifles. Velocities were consistent with the bullet weight, accuracy equal to or even slightly better than full calibre bullets. Don't know about getting a patched bullet across a revolver's cylinder to barrel gap, but the technique should work for pistols.

Alex Johnson · September 9, 2002, 04:47 PM

scary

September 4, 2002, 05:39 PM	#27
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Actually, I'm thinking more in terms of performance than in messing with the ME's head - although I'd love to see a video of the autopsy where the guy pulls a bullet STILL IN THE SHELL out of some stiff . Just for the comedy value . But no, the whole point here is performance - somehow get "more burn" happening after the initial ignition and 2" of bullet travel. Here's a weird thought: you have a hollow-base lead round flying along, already cleared muzzle, on target, spinning good, and now a secondary charge in it's butt end is finally kicked off by a fuse. Now what? Seems like the projectile just gets kicked forward some, and the previous hollow base now "flares out" to some additional diameter? Sorta like a backwards JHP that expands BEFORE hitting the target? It'd leave one hell of an entry wound . __________________ Jim March

September 4, 2002, 06:27 PM	#29
Chuck Dye Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2002 Location: Oregon-The wet side. Posts: 949	Years ago one of the rags (Shooting Times?) ran an article on paper patching modern ammo. As I recall, 100% rag paper strips were wrapped wet around a bullet, allowed to dry, then loaded. The system worked best if the bullet had been lightly scored by rolling it between two files so the rifling gripped the paper, the paper gripped the bullet. Several loads were tested, .284" bullets in .30 calibre cases and rifles. Velocities were consistent with the bullet weight, accuracy equal to or even slightly better than full calibre bullets. Don't know about getting a patched bullet across a revolver's cylinder to barrel gap, but the technique should work for pistols. __________________ Gee, I'd love to see your data!

September 9, 2002, 04:47 PM	#30
Alex Johnson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 812	scary __________________ I thoroughly disapprove of duels. I consider them unwise and I know they are dangerous. Also, sinful. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet retired spot and kill him. - Mark Twain

September 4, 2002, 03:40 PM	#26
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	OK, I'm back & much better now ... If foiling forensics is the end result of the concept, I can think of many ways to do that better than anything "two-staged." 'Course (Psst, Mal .... is this a conspiracy "tyo violate?") A best bet is a "choked-system" a la the screw in rifle chokes of a shotgun. Shoot a saboted round (there are many combos very available) & then just pitch the rifled choke. You leave behind a forensicly detail sabot (somehwre in the schene) but imprinted with the choke. Again - lose that thing. That's shotguns. I've noticed that some muzzleloader companies offer .45 cal sabots that accept 9mm/.38 cal bullets. I hope to someday start shooting 125 gr 9mm saboted bullets out of my .45 Colt Contender barrel way past 2500 fps - we'll see. 6mm can't be too far behind. (I have tried some various sabot'd rounds & was easily non-impressed with their accuracy. A 55 gr .223 cal in a .30 cal sabot, if nothing else, usually trashes the sky-screens toot sweet. ) Still thinking that an off-the-shelf paper patch bullet has the best advantage of accuracy & most likely, with a bit of stay in the target, a goodly chance of removing forensics through "liquid contamination." (yuck) Choice of paper could better the time "down range." Paper patching a pistol caliber would only entail using a shade of sub-caliber to allow the thickness of paper - too, I'm shooting cast rifle bullets that mike out at .3145" in a .308 barrel - nothing that can't be got around. As with most things, the simpler usually works best (better).

September 4, 2002, 05:47 PM	#28
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Can't argue, Jim, but ... Wouldn't using a suitable caliber & power factor do the job already? Performance is always the prblem with handguns. And, far as messin' with the C's head - have an unshot in yer pocket & after doing your own "autopsy," stuff in an unfired shotshell .... Yeah, I know. I dunno 'bout anything length-wise having anything close to being able to accomodate a burn-charge ralistically. I'd go with a sub-caliber/"end-barrel" rifling system & just toss the end piece afterwards.