Is the single stack nine the modern snubby?

[g.willikers]

Exactly.
Practice reenforces training.
But to know what and how to practice, training comes first.
And enough of it to satisfy one's needs and goals.
In the context of this discussion, practicing with small handguns should be for how they would actually be used.
At least that's the way I do it.
Small quick scenarios for small guns.
Keep it real and there's less need to wear yourself out at the range.
As someone who knows once said, (can't remember who), practice smart is best.

[g.willikers]

If anyone is interested on how to practice with small handguns, here's an excellent article about BUG matches.
http://gunsmagazine.com/web-extra-le...-a-backup-gun/

[jr24]

I guess yes and no. The ones I've tried remain too large for pocket carry, so they can't replace my LCR as a pocket gun.

Should I find one that fits better and is as (un)pleasant to shoot, then perhaps. For larger pockets, my Glock 26 fits just fine in and therefore no need for a single stack.

I've tried the XDs, Shield and Glock 43. The SIG 938 looks like it might fit for me, but I haven't had a chance to try one yet.

[Glenn Dee]

Does the single stack pocket auto's replace the snubbed nose revolver?

My opinion is they do not. I base this like all my opinions on my own training, education and experience. While I do have some safe queens, I tend to see firearms as tools. Depending on the task, I believe we need the right tool. I do not believe that there are one size fits all with firearms or any other tools.

The task at hand with most of us is to defend against an unknown assailant, in an unknown situation, he/her being armed with an unknown weapon. The idea of imagining a situation causing you to have to defend yourself is not just healthy but a good idea. While attending an advanced police training seminar I learned a training technique that later saved my life. While going through your everyday routine, stop and imagine a worse case scenario with the perp being armed with a handgun. Imagine how you would react to this. If your honest with yourself you will most likely end up shot or dead. The trick is to evaluate the situation and look for ways to change the outcome and make those changes in your lifestyle, tactics, weapons, or routine.

Ok so back to the question of " do single stack auto's replace the snubbie revolver?) are the single stacks the new snubbie? I suggest no. The single stack or any other auto is far less reliable of making multiple contact shots, shooting through clothing , purse's, packages. Most people do not have a tactical plan, much less a disaster plan in case of surprise or ambush. Very few people have actual experience or real world training, nor do they posses the information they'd need to make such decisions. So... strictly based on my own experiences and training, Knowing many of the methods and tactics used by robbers. muggers, burglars, home invaders, and opportunists I still carry, and recomend the snub nosed revolver.

maybe we need a discussion on how crooks work.

[CDW4ME]

I prefer a PM9/ Glock 43, not a snub, as a 2nd option to a larger pistol IWB.
My PM9/ Glock 43 have night sights, more capacity, less perceived recoil than snub.

[JohnKSa]

But I was talking about practice, not training.

Perhaps during "practice" (using your definition) it might be possible to minimize the effects of felt recoil via mindset. But not during "training" since training is focused on the details of properly carrying out a process--something that's not compatible with an artificially induced panic.

First get training, then practice.

Training and practice must continue together. The good habits built by initial training will have to be continually reinforced or they will fade.

Practice reenforces training.

Proper practice reinforces training. If the "practice" is such that it causes the shooter to lose focus on technique (e.g. via artificially induced panic) then the shooter will have to focus more heavily on "training" to insure that the "practice" doesn't cause good habits to fade.

You can't have it both ways. When I pointed out that an artificial panic is not good training, you then brought up the concept of "practice" as distinct from "training" because obviously your example was not good "training". Then when it was correctly pointed out that "training" must continue along with "practice" you responded with the idea that "practice" reinforces "training".

The problem is that your concept of "practice" isn't consistent with the principles of good "training" and therefore it does not reinforce "training", it primarily measures the current level of proficiency. As you define "practice" it is actually likely to work against the carefully ingrained habits generated by "training".

"Practicing" in a way that's inconsistent with "training" will absolutely require ongoing "training".

No matter how one tries to break this down, it's going to be necessary to do a significant amount of work at the range (practice and training) to build and maintain proficiency with a handgun. Much of that will have to be "training" which means that recoil WILL be a factor, even if it's not during "practice".

[snubbyfan]

For me there is no single-stack semi-auto, in any caliber, that will replace my snubbie for cc. Why? No chance of a mis-feed....5 always ready to go.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by g willikers

Fun with recoil.
Youse guys realize that guns only recoil when you pay attention to them.
The next time you're at the range, try this:
Imagine the target to be some drooling meat eating monster hell bent on eating your kids.
Your immediate job is to stop it in its tracks, right then, right now.
Drop that creep in the mud before it moves another foot.
Betcha' you won't notice any recoil at all, no matter what you are shooting.

You might not "notice" the recoil, just like you might not "notice" the muzzle blast if you "train" realistically by not wearing earmuffs.

Doesn't mean that either one is not there. Your eardrums are still getting destroyed whether you notice the pressure waves or not, just like your split times and accuracy are degraded by the recoil and muzzle blast whether you notice them or not.

You'll have to make your own decision on whether one hit combined with some slower, less accurate shots due to unnoticed increased muzzle blast and recoil are preferable to multiple faster and more accurate hits.

I'm a big believer that all common carry handguns are essentially equal (puny), and if I'm stuck with a handgun the only thing that will make any difference in stopping a drooling meat eating monster hell bent on eating my kids is effective placement of multiple rounds.

[OldMarksman]

Betcha' you won't notice any recoil at all, no matter what you are shooting.

Doesn't matter one whit whether you "notice" it.

The question is one of how quickly one can hit a fast moving attacker with multiple rounds. Recoil is one of the issues that make that difficult.

[jglsprings]

snubbyfan
For me there is no single-stack semi-auto, in any caliber, that will replace my snubbie for cc. Why? No chance of a mis-feed....5 always ready to go.

You are going to very disappointed some day.

The rebound slide spring in my Model 60 broke one day at the range. - the gun stopped working. Any gun, no matter how "perfect" or "dead nuts reliable" can fail...

[Doc7]

Originally Posted by jglsprings

You are going to very disappointed some day.



The rebound slide spring in my Model 60 broke one day at the range. - the gun stopped working. Any gun, no matter how "perfect" or "dead nuts reliable" can fail...

I think that is the point of his post...

[snubbyfan]

By choosing a revolver over a semi auto for cc I've eliminated the possibility of a failure to feed that a magazine can have, which sometimes happens with the semis.
A failure to feed can be deadly for you in a confrontation.

[AK103K]

How long and how much have you been shooting a revolver?

Ive been shooting them for quite a long time now, and have had some pretty ugly (and learning) stoppages with them over the years.

At least with the autos, a TRB normally gets you back in business pretty quick. Revolver stoppages tend to be DRT in nature, and the gun isnt readily restored to use without tools.

All it takes is a bullet jumping a crimp, or you reload incorrectly and you get junk under the extractor star, etc, and the gun all of a sudden stops working, and you cant get it going again, and at the worst possible moment.

With anything, practicing failure drills is just as important as practicing anything else. If you havent had a failure yet, you will at some point, thats pretty much a guarantee. Best to be proactive, do preventive maintenance up front, and learn how to deal with the bad things in practice.

[pete2]

I would say yes and no. I have a 642 and an LC9, I like to carry in my pocket and the 642 is alot easier to get out in a hurry, the 642 is also 3oz. lighter, it surprised me to find out I can tell it's lighter.

[armedleo]

If you mean to say that there was a time when most detectives and civilians carried a snubby for concealed carry and today most of those same persons carry semi autos for concealed carry, then yes, the single stack nine is today's snubby.

After that I think the remaining similarities are akin to the similarities made between a Ford Model T and today's modern cars; both have four wheels, an engine...

[CDW4ME]

snubbyfan A failure to feed can be deadly for you in a confrontation.

So could running out of ammo, only having 5 rounds before a reload.
Consider missed shot(s), poor shot placement, determined / psychotic / drugged attacker(s).

[g.willikers]

Just carry more than one.
It was good enough for Wild Bill, wasn't it?

[JERRYS.]

what post #40 guy said.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by g willikers

Just carry more than one.
It was good enough for Wild Bill, wasn't it?

Apparently not. Didn't he die from getting shot in the back before his 40th birthday?

Based on what I read on the internet, if he'd had a high capacity semi-auto with a couple of extra mags he would probably still be alive today!

[Jeff H]

I have nothing against carrying a snubbie revolver but they hold less ammo than my 40 shield, are less powerful than my 40 shield (assuming 38spl), are thicker than my 40 Shield, and my 40 shield has proven to be absolutely reliable and is pleasant to shoot.

[Sarge]

The LCP is the contemporary Airweight.

The MP40C is the modern K frame 357 snub.

[seeker_two]

Originally Posted by g.willikers

Just carry more than one.
It was good enough for Wild Bill, wasn't it?

And for Jim Cirrillo.....

[AK103K]

And do you suppose those people of those different eras, would still choose those guns they had available to them then, or something more current available today? Given the choice and some time to learn them?

[OldMarksman]

It was good enough for Wild Bill, wasn't it?
And for Jim Cirrillo.....

That was while Cirillo was still on the force.

As a civilian, he carried two Glocks.

[scoobysnacker]

The newer, small ones, probably. But I suspect it's also in response to capacity limits.
I'm in a free state, but if I were limited to 10 rds, I'd probably rather carry something like a S&W 39-2 than a capped off double stack.