C & R firearms selling

xring3 · January 14, 2011, 10:00 PM

This is my way of selling firearms (mainly C & R) but I also do this with any that I need to dispose of. I always put the gun on consignment with an 01 dealer at his shop. This keeps me distant from any liability in case it gets into the wrong hands, blows up or has any other problems. Also I have always been better off moneywise this way. What are your thoughts??

TX Hunter · January 14, 2011, 10:05 PM

Still dosnt seem like your collecting, more like a Middle Man.
Just my Opinon.
I would recomend getting a dealers license, then you wont have to ask if its alright to sell guns, because it will be.

mes227 · January 14, 2011, 11:27 PM

I doubt that this actually limits your liability in any way. Since it's consignment, the shop (FFL) is only offering a paperwork service and you're still on the hook for selling anything that you knew - or should have known - was dangerous.

madcratebuilder · January 15, 2011, 08:43 AM

A C&R is a collectors lic not a sellers lic. Sell to many guns and atf well be asking why. You can sell for the betterment of your collection.

Cheapshooter · January 15, 2011, 01:56 PM

Sounds like a "loophole" that could loop you into a lot of trouble! Are you selling them for profit, or to buy another C&R firearm to improve your collection? Or you selling them to get money to purchase something that is not C&R?
I really bothers me as a C&R license holder who has his license to buy firearms for my collection to see guys trying to find loopholes to use a C&R license to play dealer. In the end, it is going to hurt all of us.
If you want to be a dealer, get the proper dealer license, and play by the rules!

James K · January 15, 2011, 03:37 PM

Sorry, Cheapshooter, a consignment sale is a perfectly legal and correct way for anyone to sell a firearm; it is not a "loophole" or cheating. The 01 dealer is legally the seller as far as BATFE is concerned, and AFAIK it is perfectly legal for a C&R licensee to sell a gun (C&R or not) to/through a licensed dealer. BATFE is concerned when a C&R licensee sells guns obtained under the license to non-licensees.

There are some states where for some guns, a C&R licensee cannot legally sell ANY gun directly to a buyer even to another C&R licensee. In MD, for example, the C&R license is NOT recognized for in-state transfers of regulated firearms. So if a C&R licensee wants to sell, say, a Luger, to ANYONE, even another C&R licensee, he/she has to go through a MARYLAND LICENSED (not only an FFL) dealer. In that case, the C&R license isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

Jim

xring3 · January 15, 2011, 05:06 PM

WOW!! I didn't mean to stur up a hornets nest. As I purchase say a Mosin from a mail order dealer, upon cleaning it up and making it presentable I found the stock was patched more to my liking. I find another in better shape than the first so I want to sell the lesser example. This would go the the 01 dealer on consignment. Unlike some collecters I only want, or better put have room for, one example and not as many as I can buy. This is my reason for going to the 01 dealer for disposal. Also, a private buyer may not be legal to purchase from a 03 licensee but the 03 licensee has no way to check him out. This would be more sticky when it comes to a handgun say a P38. IMHO selling a firearm of any type takes more thought than selling say a motorcycle.

Cheapshooter · January 15, 2011, 07:54 PM

Jim, by loophole I mean using a C&R to buy a bunch of firearms, then sell them for a profit. It wouldn't matter what method was used to sell them, the C&R holder would still be violating the rule of only selling to improve his collection.

Xring, as you have now explained your reason for the sale it does fit perfectly in the rules of improving your collection.

One question I do have though is, being sold on consignment, how do you enter the disposition in your bound book? To the 01 dealer, or the person he sold it to?
If it is to the dealer, do you enter the disposition as soon as you take it to him because that is when it is no longer in your possession? Then if it doesn't sell do you re-enter it into your book.
Then, if you take it out of your book, and he has possession of it, he has to enter it into his. Just seems like a lot of extra paperwork rather than just knowing who you sell the gun to.

In my 10 ears of holding a C&R license I have only sold 2 of the 32 guns I have bought. That was because I found one in better shape, and personally knew the purchaser.

xring3 · January 15, 2011, 11:19 PM

Cheapshooter...here is what I do. (1) enter the gun as on consignment to the 01 dealer. (2) 01 dealer enters gun is his log book as inventory. (3) when gun sells enter as disposed of by 01 dealer. Simple. I have never, to this point, had to take one back. The problem with selling any firearm as a private sale is "what if the other person sells the gun to another person and he is a felon, does a hold-up and they recover the gun." My guess is it comes back to you for questions as this was the last stop in the paper trail. A little extra paperwork is a small price to pay to keep the monkey off of your back. Especially when that monkey is the 600 pound gorilla AKA BATF!

James K · January 15, 2011, 11:47 PM

Maybe I need to mention that in this state, sales of regulated firearms, which includes handguns, have to go through the state police who are supposed to check that the gun was not stolen, involved in crime, etc. So selling through a dealer does eliminate (supposedly) that possibility.

Another advantage of using a dealer is that he will have more people see the gun than you probably could contact directly, so the likelihood of a sale is increased. I have no C&R license, but I have found the dealer consignment an excellent way to sell guns. (Note that I am talking about selling a few guns at infrequent intervals, not trying to peddle 15,000 AK-47's to the highest bidder!)

Jim

Cheapshooter · January 16, 2011, 12:26 AM

Quote:

I have no C&R license,

OK, that explains why you didn't understand what I meant about a loophole.
It just concerns me to see the questions I have seen on this forum about buying C&R firearms with your license for someone else, buying a case of rifles to sell off all but one in order to make enough that you have one for free, and other obvious violations of the rules pertaining to the Class03 C&R license.
The gun grabbers are already after gun shows, I hate to see any excuse for them to come after the C&R licensed collectors.

xrings system sounds perfectly legit, but I think he is worrying a bit much about a buyer selling to another buyer, etc,etc, and it coming back to him. As long as his sale was done legally, he has no responsibility there after.

madcratebuilder · January 16, 2011, 09:33 AM

Quote:

It just concerns me to see the questions I have seen on this forum about buying C&R firearms with your license for someone else, buying a case of rifles to sell off all but one in order to make enough that you have one for free, and other obvious violations of the rules pertaining to the Class03 C&R license.

I agree, many of the newer C&R holders do not fully understand the intent of the license.

Quote:

As I purchase say a Mosin from a mail order dealer, upon cleaning it up and making it presentable I found the stock was patched more to my liking. I find another in better shape than the first so I want to sell the lesser example.

xring3, this would be a perfectly legitimate sale. You are selling for the betterment of your collection. If you bought six Mosins and sold five keeping the best, that would not be within the intent of the C&R license.

Dabull · January 16, 2011, 02:44 PM

New C&Rs will understand a little better once they get their renewal notice at the 3 year point. The renewal asks point blank: How many did you buy and how many did you dispose of. A big differential is going to be noticed.

Cheapshooter · January 16, 2011, 03:18 PM

Quote:

A big differential is going to be noticed.

Yep, hope they enjoy their visit from the nice man in the suit from BATF!

January 14, 2011, 10:00 PM	#1
xring3 Member Join Date: March 6, 2008 Location: northwest Oklahoma Posts: 28	C & R firearms selling This is my way of selling firearms (mainly C & R) but I also do this with any that I need to dispose of. I always put the gun on consignment with an 01 dealer at his shop. This keeps me distant from any liability in case it gets into the wrong hands, blows up or has any other problems. Also I have always been better off moneywise this way. What are your thoughts??

January 15, 2011, 01:56 PM	#5
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	Sounds like a "loophole" that could loop you into a lot of trouble! Are you selling them for profit, or to buy another C&R firearm to improve your collection? Or you selling them to get money to purchase something that is not C&R? I really bothers me as a C&R license holder who has his license to buy firearms for my collection to see guys trying to find loopholes to use a C&R license to play dealer. In the end, it is going to hurt all of us. If you want to be a dealer, get the proper dealer license, and play by the rules! __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

January 15, 2011, 07:54 PM	#8
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	Jim, by loophole I mean using a C&R to buy a bunch of firearms, then sell them for a profit. It wouldn't matter what method was used to sell them, the C&R holder would still be violating the rule of only selling to improve his collection. Xring, as you have now explained your reason for the sale it does fit perfectly in the rules of improving your collection. One question I do have though is, being sold on consignment, how do you enter the disposition in your bound book? To the 01 dealer, or the person he sold it to? If it is to the dealer, do you enter the disposition as soon as you take it to him because that is when it is no longer in your possession? Then if it doesn't sell do you re-enter it into your book. Then, if you take it out of your book, and he has possession of it, he has to enter it into his. Just seems like a lot of extra paperwork rather than just knowing who you sell the gun to. In my 10 ears of holding a C&R license I have only sold 2 of the 32 guns I have bought. That was because I found one in better shape, and personally knew the purchaser. __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

January 16, 2011, 02:44 PM	#13
Dabull Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 380	New C&Rs will understand a little better once they get their renewal notice at the 3 year point. The renewal asks point blank: How many did you buy and how many did you dispose of. A big differential is going to be noticed. __________________ "Its better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it." -- Clarence Worley in True Romance

January 14, 2011, 10:05 PM	#2
TX Hunter Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Location: East Texas USA Posts: 1,805	Still dosnt seem like your collecting, more like a Middle Man. Just my Opinon. I would recomend getting a dealers license, then you wont have to ask if its alright to sell guns, because it will be.

January 14, 2011, 11:27 PM	#3
mes227 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2010 Location: Incline Village, NV Posts: 535	I doubt that this actually limits your liability in any way. Since it's consignment, the shop (FFL) is only offering a paperwork service and you're still on the hook for selling anything that you knew - or should have known - was dangerous.

January 15, 2011, 08:43 AM	#4
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	A C&R is a collectors lic not a sellers lic. Sell to many guns and atf well be asking why. You can sell for the betterment of your collection.

January 15, 2011, 03:37 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Sorry, Cheapshooter, a consignment sale is a perfectly legal and correct way for anyone to sell a firearm; it is not a "loophole" or cheating. The 01 dealer is legally the seller as far as BATFE is concerned, and AFAIK it is perfectly legal for a C&R licensee to sell a gun (C&R or not) to/through a licensed dealer. BATFE is concerned when a C&R licensee sells guns obtained under the license to non-licensees. There are some states where for some guns, a C&R licensee cannot legally sell ANY gun directly to a buyer even to another C&R licensee. In MD, for example, the C&R license is NOT recognized for in-state transfers of regulated firearms. So if a C&R licensee wants to sell, say, a Luger, to ANYONE, even another C&R licensee, he/she has to go through a MARYLAND LICENSED (not only an FFL) dealer. In that case, the C&R license isn't worth the paper it is printed on. Jim

January 15, 2011, 05:06 PM	#7
xring3 Member Join Date: March 6, 2008 Location: northwest Oklahoma Posts: 28	WOW!! I didn't mean to stur up a hornets nest. As I purchase say a Mosin from a mail order dealer, upon cleaning it up and making it presentable I found the stock was patched more to my liking. I find another in better shape than the first so I want to sell the lesser example. This would go the the 01 dealer on consignment. Unlike some collecters I only want, or better put have room for, one example and not as many as I can buy. This is my reason for going to the 01 dealer for disposal. Also, a private buyer may not be legal to purchase from a 03 licensee but the 03 licensee has no way to check him out. This would be more sticky when it comes to a handgun say a P38. IMHO selling a firearm of any type takes more thought than selling say a motorcycle.

January 15, 2011, 11:19 PM	#9
xring3 Member Join Date: March 6, 2008 Location: northwest Oklahoma Posts: 28	Cheapshooter...here is what I do. (1) enter the gun as on consignment to the 01 dealer. (2) 01 dealer enters gun is his log book as inventory. (3) when gun sells enter as disposed of by 01 dealer. Simple. I have never, to this point, had to take one back. The problem with selling any firearm as a private sale is "what if the other person sells the gun to another person and he is a felon, does a hold-up and they recover the gun." My guess is it comes back to you for questions as this was the last stop in the paper trail. A little extra paperwork is a small price to pay to keep the monkey off of your back. Especially when that monkey is the 600 pound gorilla AKA BATF!

January 15, 2011, 11:47 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Maybe I need to mention that in this state, sales of regulated firearms, which includes handguns, have to go through the state police who are supposed to check that the gun was not stolen, involved in crime, etc. So selling through a dealer does eliminate (supposedly) that possibility. Another advantage of using a dealer is that he will have more people see the gun than you probably could contact directly, so the likelihood of a sale is increased. I have no C&R license, but I have found the dealer consignment an excellent way to sell guns. (Note that I am talking about selling a few guns at infrequent intervals, not trying to peddle 15,000 AK-47's to the highest bidder!) Jim