working up max loads, too full casings?

[Shadow9mm]

Im working up some max loads for 223 and wondered how much powder is supposed to be compressed. I did my first ladder testing today, 24.2-26g of varget and 23.2-25g of benchamrk. loading over Hornady 55g fmjbt at max oal to fit in my magazine (2.258) with cci 450 magnum small rifle primers. The varget was to the top of the shoulder and the pulled was pushed into it a little bit. No signs of pressure with either so far today. I'm a little afraid to go higher on the varget. I know you can compress rifle powders but how much? I put 27.5g of varget in a casing just to see how much space it would take up and it was to the top of the mouth, just didn't seem safe to compress it that much, or if I even could. Benchamrk had a lot more room to spare.

[Metal god]

What's the purpose of this round ? It's a cheap plinking bullet , it that the purpose of the load ?

I ask because if this is a plinking round why push it to max pressure . If you don't have a specific reason to be at max why insist on being there ?

As for compressed loads . I've never compressed ball powders because I've found the accuracy I wanted before that happened . On the other hand I have multiple loads that are compressed when using IMR 4064 , 4895, 8208 , 4320 . All stick powders and have heard the bullet crunching powder as the bullet is seated .

You can try a drop tube funnel . I have a 8" drop tube that works well .

Kinda like this
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/293...long-drop-tube

[Shadow9mm]

I am new to reloading for rifles, I am trying to find max so that I know where I am safe at, I don't plan on running them at max. I am mostly loading for plinking/target work, but if I am going to the trouble of reloading I figured why not dial in a really good load before I start cranking them out.

[Dufus]

You seriously need a chronograph to approach that max load because you might get there before any pressure signs start showing. It can be dangerous territory without one unless you have the equipment to measure pressure.

[Shadow9mm]

good to know.... wish someone had told me that earlier, I do have one, next time out I will run them over chronograph, what am I looking for, excess velocity? to what level, 55g typically run around 3100-3200, would they be in excess of that?

[Metal god]

EDIT

what am I looking for, excess velocity? to what level, 55g typically run around 3100-3200, would they be in excess of that?

You will be looking to see if the velocities you are getting are close to what the manual shows for that charge weight . There are a few things to consider when doing this though . First you need to know what the published data you are using , used in there test . What length barrel ? , cases ? , Primers ? COAL ? etc . The barrel length is the most important here really along with COAL . If they used a 20 inch barrel and you are as well then "in general" you should get close to the same velocities at the same charges . If you're getting 200fps faster velocities then the manual shows for a given charge weight . Then you're likely getting higher pressures at the same charges . So "in general" with all things being equal , you don't want to go to much over published velocities even if the book says you can go another 1.5gr of powder .

Now if there test barrel was 20" and yours is 16" . Then you should expect less velocity from the same charge . The opposite if your bareel is longer , you should get more velocity . Depending on the caliber ,powder and a bunch of other factors . For every inch of barrel gained or lost you should expect a 30fps to 50fps difference

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At what distance did you do your ladder test . 300 yards should be the minimum distance . This allows you to see the vertical stringing from charge to charge . If less then that , I don't see a reason for the ladder test .

The ladder test shows two things . What your rifles max pressure is for that load combo and should show at what charges that combo has a stable pressure node .

see this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJKVc5z9WVM

For plinking loads , I'd not bother with looking for max pressure . If you're not showing pressure signs then you're safe . No need in finding "MAX" for plinking loads . You will not want your range loads pushing max because you're just putting more stress on the brass and likely reducing case life .

If you keep your targets , Which I recommend you do . Go back and see if you had a three charge weight spread that had a very small vertical string . That's likely a good spot to load a larger number of rounds and see how they group .

Also when running ladder test and or OCW test . There's a point in which you start playing with seating depth to tighten up your groups . Based on your OP I assume you're loading for an AR . AR's are not the best firearm to fine tune loads by adjusting seating depth do to the long jump the bullet will have no matter what . You almost always have to fine tune loads with powder charge , different primers or even changing bullets .

I say this because IMHO when working up a plinking load for an AR it's best to just do a tradition load development rather then these other types of long range accuracy tests . Just load 5 rounds each from published minimum to max charge weights working up in .5gr increments . You will almost always find one of those 5 shot groups will group better then the rest .

[Shadow9mm]

yes its for a AR, but just because its an AR doesn't mean it cant be accurate, I managed to get 1moa out of it with PMC Bronze I don't want max loads, but if I don't know where max is how can I stay a reasonable distance back from it? I will be working with seating depth. Berger recommends testing at .010, .050, .090, .130 off the lands for accuracy, with the hornady 55g fmjb bulk I got I can get .059 off the lands so that gives me 3 of their recommended distances to work with. Just want to get the max out of the load I can before I start cranking out batches.

[Metal god]

Check my edit in last post for answer to chrono question

I will be working with seating depth. Berger recommends testing at .010, .050, .090, .130 off the lands for accuracy,

First I never said an AR can't be accurate . My custom built National match service rifle is very accurate . My point was that an AR's COAL is restricted to the mag length . So when you really want to shoot accurate loads and you start loading the longer match bullets you only get one COAL 2.260 . Any longer and they don't feed from the mag . Any deeper and you reduce the case volume by pushing the bullet deeper into the case . You are not going to get that type of COAL range when loading for the AR with match bullets .

2) Berger is tallking about there VLD match bullets when suggesting those seating depths

3) Most AR's throats are so long a 55gr bullet falls out of the case before it engages the lands and again accurate plinking loads can be found using a set COAL ( in my case and that bullet ) 2.240 or just to the bottom of the canelure and a traditional load development .

As for finding max pressure see my edit in my above post about the chrono

[Shadow9mm]

Thanks, sorry if I came off a little testy, Just seem like everyone bashes the AR when you start talking accuracy. I know its not a nice bolt gun but its what I have and I want to get everything out of it that I can. I'm running a 16" barrel chambered in 223 wylde, so I'm a little better off than a 5.56nato chamber. I am going to be loading some match 68g to mag length and those are pretty far off the lands so I am stuck at seating depth and just have powder charge to work with. I will probably try some single feed 70g bergers for accuracy loads, but it seems pretty tedious to single load.

[Metal god]

No problem happy to help .

I take it you've been loading for hand guns and just started loading for rifles ?

I did the opposite , I loaded rifle for a long awhile before starting pistol loading . I only have about a year of pistol loading under my belt .

[Shadow9mm]

Yeah, I loaded for handguns for a while first, only had my rifle a little over a year now. I was intimidated by what I knew and what I knew I didn't know about rifle reloading as well as the extra equipment i would need to do it properly and I finally decided to get up to speed and get going. My main goal was to get more affordable ammo and to get better more accurate ammo. I enjoy plinking but don't have the opportunity to do it that often, mostly its punching paper so accuracy is what I have to work with.

[briandg]

A chronograph will give you an insight into your loads and pressures. If your rounds reach that listed top end, don't increase your load beyond that. Nothing is free. If you reach the listed maximum, increasing your powder will Almost certainly be at maximum levels. If you reach the maximum load, you will already be at your safe pressure, and trying to get full listed velocity will also probably put your pressure above acceptable levels. Don't push either your charge or velocity above recommended levels.

Do not cherry pick among various bits of load data from one source to another. If one manual lists, for example, 25 gn but another lists 28, take a conservative level, and not the one that sound better. Others will disagree with me, but two labs, two techs, two different loads and guns can both get different data, and not give an absolutely clear answer.
When I was a kid, I looked for a killer load, and fooled around with my data to the point that I took a load from a ten year old magazine that suggested a load two grains higher than any other load. It was probably safe, but doing so was stupid.

A general point is that maximum loads may be less accurate than ones with slightly lower loads. Maybe 223 is that way.

Keep in mind that a 5 grain reduction in powder may also give you a free box over the life of a pound can.

My thoughts are that a max load, unless you are shooting at extreme ranges, is wasted effort. If your standard loads, however, don't shoot well I with more conservative rounds, then do whatever you feel is smart and useful.

[reynolds357]

How much powder is too compressed?
1. You cant get any more in the case with your ultrasonic toothbrush and tubes.
2. You get it in but the bullet will not seat on it.
3. You get it in and get the bullet seated, but it will not stay at the seat depth you put it at.

****All above assumes you do not exceed safe maximum load in the process.***********

[Mobuck]

If you're really concerned about powder compression-------use a faster powder.
I load a lot of .223 ammo for long term storage and don't want compressed loads so I use AA2230/X-terminator or WCC844/H335 to get approximately 100% density and close to max velocities with 55 grain bullets.
I think you'll find you're wasting your time making tiny adjustment to the seating depth unless using very high grade bullets. I seat normal use bullets (Hornady bulk soft point/MidSouth Varmint Nightmare/ Midway Dogtown) to crimp properly and have excellent results with this practice.
As others have noted, I use a chronograph as a loading tool--I load to a predetermined velocity and often end up a grain +/- short of the book max load. This gives me some wiggle room since I often use mixed brass(not weight matched but all similar headstamp).

[erikk]

Max loads are seldom the most accurate. Get a manual and it will state starting and max loads. Do your ladder and somewhere in between you will find the one that is the most accurate for your rifle

[Dufus]

As you increase your powder charge and shooting over a chronograph, the velocity increases as the powder charge increases up to a point. As your velocity flattens out (no more velocity increase with powder increase) you have reached the maximum charge. At the point that there is no increase in velocity (and sometimes you will actually loose velocity), decrease the powder charge by approximately one grain and call that the maximum charge for that load combo (bullet, powder, case, primer). Any time you change ONE of these components, you need to re-work the load again using the same methods with the chronograph.

[T. O'Heir]

Benchmark doesn't produce compressed loads at all.
26 grains of Varget is a compressed load. Max for a 55 grain bullet is 27.5. Compressing starts way before the max load. Compressed loads are nothing to worry about though.
And you do not need the magnum primers. Magnum primers are only used if your manual calls for 'em with a particular powder.
"...off the lands for accuracy..." Berger can suggest anything they like, but every rifle will have a different distance from the lands it likes best. Off the lands is something you do to tweak a load after you've found the most accurate load. Forget about it for now.
PMC Bronze runs at 3200 fps with an FMJ. Look for a load at or near that velocity. Tick above minimum with Varget or Benchmark.

[Metal god]

T .O I don't use Benchmark or Varget so I'll ask can you get 3200fps from a 16" barrel with those ? I use mostly stick powders IMR 4064 , 4895 , 8208 , 4320 and none of those get to that velocity . I'm lucky if I get 3000fps with those and a 16" barrel . The only powders that I use that push a 55gr bullet over 3000fps is H-335 and PP 2000mr . Both ball powders .

I agree magnum primers are not needed with such a small case and ball powder . You will come across guys saying magnum primers are better when trying to ignite ball powders . I believe this has more to do with larger calibers that are holding much more powder that needs to get started .

I did some limited testing using standard and magnum primers in 223 using h-335 . I found no noticeable difference in overall velocities and I believe the standard primers had a better EX/SD . I'll have to look at my notes when I get home to confirm .

[Unclenick]

Shadow9mm,

The reason the case is so full is that Varget is a little on the slow side for a bullet that light. It does best with the 69 and 77 and 80 grain match bullets, as near as I can tell. The suggestion to try something a little faster is good. I've seen very accurate loads with the 55 grain Hornady V-max using Reloader 10X, which is around the speed of 3031.

You can get a good deal of compression using a long drop tube. Here's an example:



With stick powders, the tight packing usually slows the burn rate a little, which is why it can be done. However, this varies with the powder and has to be tested carefully.

On the chronograph, it is generally the case that when you get to the normal pressure range, each increase in powder charge increases velocity by the same amount. So, if you are at 3000 fps and going up half a grain takes you to 3050 fps, you can expect the next half a grain to take you to 3100 fps. However, if you increase the load and don't get an increase or the velocity even drops slightly, that means metal is stretching, and that should be considered a pressure sign and you should back off about 5%. Occasionally just uneven bolt logs can cause this, but better safe than sorry.

[Shadow9mm]

I got magnum primers for the extra cup thickness since I am firing in an AR platform with a free float firing pin, I know it is not needed for ignition with the powders I am using. Where I live it can get down to 0F in the winter, so it would guarantee reliable ignition in the winter.

[Mike / Tx]

Like Unclenick posted I like to find something powder wise that when I have my max loads I'm right up to the bottom of the neck. Sometimes I will simply weigh out a listed powders max load and pour it in the case just to see where it comes to or how well it fills the case. This will sometimes help me choose what I want to start loads with.

I really don't like to compress a powder. I have through the years but not on a regular basis. There are just too many powders that fit what I like to have and most of them I already have on the shelf anyway.

[5whiskey]

Erikk pointed out something I have always observed. Reloading for 5 rifles now, and I have yet to see a published max load be the most accurate. I know there are some people here with much more experience who have loaded for 30 or 40 rifles or more. I'm sure somewhere along the way someone has observed a max load ( or even slightly over) be the most accurate load. I have not, nor has anyone in my circle that I know of. I usually find the best accuracy at around 1%-3% under max, and increases from there usually open the group up.