Help needed, Which one for IDPA?

ART338WM · July 23, 2014, 01:10 AM

First I should make it clear I have zero knowledge or experience shooting in formal handgun compititions. I belong to a private gun club that has a large IDPA fallowing and I wish to join and compete. I have no asperations in becoming a serious competitore as I have neithor the time or money to do so. I absolutely love shooting all my firearms and punching paper has finally become to boring, hence my desire to join IDPA.

My handgun budget is as close to $600 or less as is possible and we are talking financial pain to exceed $550.

I am looking for experienced based advice on gun selection, but before I ask which of the guns I'm interested in, I will list the ones I don't like and there fore will not buy as I am looking for a out of the box ready pistol, I don't wish to invest $100-$200 dollars after I buy in trigger upgrades. Don't get me wrong I admit they all great guns, but because of the way they feel, their trigger or cost, I have eliminated them from the running: Glocks feel/trigger, XDM trigger, Sig cost/trigger, FN&H trigger, CZ SP-01/trigger.

I am down to the fallowing two pistols:
<>Walther PPQ M2 5" 9mm
<>S&W M&P Pro 5" 9mm

I literally did a 50x each side by side dry fire and reset compairison of the two. They both felt equally superb in my hands. In the end the PPQ M2's trigger was slightly better than the M&P Pro's. That was the one of the only two advantages in MY opinion the PPQ M2 had on the M&P Pro. the other was the fact that the M&P's fiber optic element in the front sight was so loose I could have litterally pulled it out.

The only advantages the M&P has VS the PPQ M2 are, the M&P's clips are cheaper and far more available VS the PPQ M2, the M&P has a 17 round capacity, the M&P comes with a duel mag pouch, as $50 dollar value. THe fact that there is a large amount of aftermarket upgrades for the M&P if I so wish VS the PPQ M2 is a factor, but if I chose to buy the M&P I feel after a break in period of 200 or so rounds the M&P's trigger is likely to be close enough to the PPQ to not justify the cost of a trigger up grade.

So based in the info I have supplied my question to those of you reading this with far more experience than I, which will serve me better for IDPA and as well as other divisions, the PPQ M2 or the M&P Pro.

Thanks,
Arthur.

1-DAB · July 23, 2014, 07:45 AM

The guy who runs our matches shoots a MP. He's pretty good.

I shoot what I carry, my colt commander 45acp.

For starters, shoot what you have or like. Develop your skills.

Jim Watson · July 23, 2014, 08:45 AM

First, note DAB's post.
If you have a handgun allowed by the rules, start out with it and save that $600 for ammo and entry fees.

If the choice is between M&P and PPQ...
I don't think I have seen a PPQ at an IDPA match, but that doesn't mean it would not be competitive if you prefer it. I have a Plastic M&P but would look hard at the PPQ if buying new, versus Glock or XD.

The larger magazine capacity of the M&P is no advantage in IDPA, you are limited to 10+1 at most. Price and availability of magazines is a small factor, you must have three and more is nice but not essential. Just keep them on your gift list until you have accumulated enough for your shooting style.

My M&P went to Dan Burwell before Apex started coming out with aftermarket parts. I have only seen a couple of guns with Apex drop-ins. One was very nice, the other is not what I would want, but the owner seems happy with it.
I have not heard of gunsmithing or non-Walther stuff for the PPQ. What Walther provides is what you shoot.

Either would be suitable for USPSA Production as well as IDPA SSP. You would need more magazines for USPSA, their courses of fire are usually longer than IDPA's.

Sorry I can't pick for you, but they are equivalent guns in a hotly contested market. You might see if you can get a look at a Sig P320 and H&K VP9 while you are at it. They are striker fired plastic 9mms and are operationally equivalent to PPQ and M&P.

g.willikers · July 23, 2014, 10:38 AM

Just from a maintenance and aftermarket perspective, the M&P would probably be a better choice.
What do you presently have that would also be suitable?
The previous recommendation of what to spend your money on is a good one, if you already have a familiar and reliable gun.

GJSchulze · July 23, 2014, 12:11 PM

I suggest you read the rule book, specifically the part that pertains to legal modifications to guns. You can find it here:http://http://www.idpa.com/compete/rules

In general, modifications are limited. External mods may be limited to what the gun manufacturer makes.

I wouldn't worry about a loose front fiber optic. If you have one, then someday you will go to shoot and find it missing. That's why guns come with extra fibers. It's easy to replace them, but it requires a lighter to melt the ends. Fiber optic sights are a big plus.

You will also need some kind of cover garment.

You might also enjoy shooting IPSC/USPSA. You can use the same gun in the production division.

ART338WM · July 23, 2014, 12:26 PM

Thanks for the advice. At the present I have two semi-autos that would work for IDPA, one of them a 5" XD Tactical in .45 acp is the better suited of the two. The other is a XD SC/HC.

I was wishing to buy a 9mm for two reasons VS my 45/XD: Cost to reload and shoot and shootabilaty. Lets face it a 9mm is is much easier to shoot quickly and accurately, especially for a novice such my self competing in fast paced shooting like IDPA VS a .45 ACP.

But it is good advise I will fallow and start out with my XD Tactical. All I need now is a good stout belt two extra clips, and a good holster for my XD, which there are plenty to choose from.

After I"m sure I want to do IDPA long term, then I will invest in a 9mm.
Thanks again,
Arthur.

GJSchulze · July 23, 2014, 05:03 PM

Our IDPA has a BUG (Backup Gun) match after the regular match. Limited to a 3.8" barrel for semi and 3" for revolver. Our match is three stages, five rounds each. The five rounds, one hit per target is standard for BUG.

I use a Blade-tech holster for my xDM 5.25 9mm. I love the gun. If the trigger is the one thing you don't like about the XD, then you can buy a trigger kit from Powder River Precision. I lowered my trigger pull from 5.5 to 3.5 lbs. with the trigger kit and than to 2.7 lbs. with a couple of other changes. All were legal for both IDPA and USPSA.

MrBorland · July 23, 2014, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ART338WM

After I"m sure I want to do IDPA long term, then I will invest in a 9mm.

If you decide you're in for the long term, I'd recommend shooting a revolver in SSR. It can pay big dividends down the road. Just sayin'

notlikeyou · July 23, 2014, 08:02 PM

Search out the Walther PPQ, not the M2 version I believe the trigger is even better. At least I know mine is

Almost forgot the biggest drawback is the mags are expensive as hell.

g.willikers · July 24, 2014, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Lets face it a 9mm is is much easier to shoot quickly and accurately

If you stay with IDPA for long, and especially if you decide to expand interests to other action games, sooner or later you will be thinking of getting into reloading.
Then the caliber of the gun won't matter.
Components are available to make just about any strength ammo, whatever the caliber choice.

Jim Watson · July 25, 2014, 01:10 AM

Yup.
I haven't shot factory loads in years, except for a period 2010-2011 when I was in temporary housing with no shop.

I shoot almost entirely IDPA ESP with 9mm subsonics or midrange .45s.
I quit CDP when the recoil got hard on the joints.

GJSchulze · July 25, 2014, 02:10 AM

Quote:

you will be thinking of getting into reloading. Then the caliber of the gun won't matter.

Why do you say that? It might be possible to reduce the recoil on a .45 to the same as a 9mm but the muzzle velocity would be pretty low. If you shoot USPSA, than you probably want to shoot 9mm in production for minor. If you are shooting a .45 you would want to be shooting major power factor so you can get the higher scoring. I admit I've seen people shoot .45 in production. For IDPA there is no scoring advantage to shooting .45.

In any event, I agree that if you stay in either competition you'll want to reload.

Brit · July 25, 2014, 04:05 AM

As the 9mm drops in price, just over $200 per thousand, you can shoot a match a month, normally under 200 rounds, and not break the bank.

Your dry fire draw practice will cost nothing.

Read the rules, join IDPA, and enjoy yourself. I shoot a Glock 19, and carry the same pistol, TruGlo fiber optic sights, $80.00.

Our Club shoots the first Sunday of the month, nice group of guys, watch, and listen.

It is additive though!

mavracer · July 25, 2014, 07:11 AM

Not that getting a 9mm isn't a necessaty you should have at least 2 of each lol. But if you reload then you can shoot lighter cast 45s and still make power factor for not much more than loading 9mm.

fire4606 · July 26, 2014, 05:34 PM

Owning glocks, m&ps, and a PPQ I don't think you can get a better trigger than on the PPQ, even with connector and spring mods on the glocks and apex internals on the M&P neither are close.

Jim Watson · July 26, 2014, 07:50 PM

Saw my first PPQ at IDPA today.
It was reliable and as accurate as the shooter could hold it.

ART338WM · July 29, 2014, 08:58 PM

Sorry I haven't gotten back sooner. I've decided to spend around $100 or so on a good trigger job/replacement for my XD45, and use it at least for the near future and start reloading reduced loads for my 45 if they work and are accurate enough.

Lots of excellent advice helping me start IDPA and do so cheaply. Bought a Fobus holster for under $30, am using the mag wells that came with my XD. Also have a never been used HD dark 1.5" brown leather belt for use with a tool belt that's quite stout that I plan on using while competing. AS my XD came with two, I only need one additional mag for now.

But I will admit, I am in love/lust with the trigger and erganomics of the new PPQ M2, and it will be difficult resisting the my desire to buy one.

All in all I'm getting started in IDPA for under $200, not bad.

Thanks again,
Arthur.

July 23, 2014, 01:10 AM	#1
ART338WM Junior Member Join Date: July 22, 2014 Posts: 12	Help needed, Which one for IDPA? First I should make it clear I have zero knowledge or experience shooting in formal handgun compititions. I belong to a private gun club that has a large IDPA fallowing and I wish to join and compete. I have no asperations in becoming a serious competitore as I have neithor the time or money to do so. I absolutely love shooting all my firearms and punching paper has finally become to boring, hence my desire to join IDPA. My handgun budget is as close to $600 or less as is possible and we are talking financial pain to exceed $550. I am looking for experienced based advice on gun selection, but before I ask which of the guns I'm interested in, I will list the ones I don't like and there fore will not buy as I am looking for a out of the box ready pistol, I don't wish to invest $100-$200 dollars after I buy in trigger upgrades. Don't get me wrong I admit they all great guns, but because of the way they feel, their trigger or cost, I have eliminated them from the running: Glocks feel/trigger, XDM trigger, Sig cost/trigger, FN&H trigger, CZ SP-01/trigger. I am down to the fallowing two pistols: <>Walther PPQ M2 5" 9mm <>S&W M&P Pro 5" 9mm I literally did a 50x each side by side dry fire and reset compairison of the two. They both felt equally superb in my hands. In the end the PPQ M2's trigger was slightly better than the M&P Pro's. That was the one of the only two advantages in MY opinion the PPQ M2 had on the M&P Pro. the other was the fact that the M&P's fiber optic element in the front sight was so loose I could have litterally pulled it out. The only advantages the M&P has VS the PPQ M2 are, the M&P's clips are cheaper and far more available VS the PPQ M2, the M&P has a 17 round capacity, the M&P comes with a duel mag pouch, as $50 dollar value. THe fact that there is a large amount of aftermarket upgrades for the M&P if I so wish VS the PPQ M2 is a factor, but if I chose to buy the M&P I feel after a break in period of 200 or so rounds the M&P's trigger is likely to be close enough to the PPQ to not justify the cost of a trigger up grade. So based in the info I have supplied my question to those of you reading this with far more experience than I, which will serve me better for IDPA and as well as other divisions, the PPQ M2 or the M&P Pro. Thanks, Arthur.

July 23, 2014, 10:38 AM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Just from a maintenance and aftermarket perspective, the M&P would probably be a better choice. What do you presently have that would also be suitable? The previous recommendation of what to spend your money on is a good one, if you already have a familiar and reliable gun. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 23, 2014, 08:02 PM	#9
notlikeyou Member Join Date: February 2, 2013 Posts: 54	Search out the Walther PPQ, not the M2 version I believe the trigger is even better. At least I know mine is Almost forgot the biggest drawback is the mags are expensive as hell. Last edited by notlikeyou; July 23, 2014 at 08:08 PM. Reason: details

July 23, 2014, 07:45 AM	#2
1-DAB Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2010 Location: Santa Fe, NM Posts: 474	The guy who runs our matches shoots a MP. He's pretty good. I shoot what I carry, my colt commander 45acp. For starters, shoot what you have or like. Develop your skills.

July 23, 2014, 08:45 AM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	First, note DAB's post. If you have a handgun allowed by the rules, start out with it and save that $600 for ammo and entry fees. If the choice is between M&P and PPQ... I don't think I have seen a PPQ at an IDPA match, but that doesn't mean it would not be competitive if you prefer it. I have a Plastic M&P but would look hard at the PPQ if buying new, versus Glock or XD. The larger magazine capacity of the M&P is no advantage in IDPA, you are limited to 10+1 at most. Price and availability of magazines is a small factor, you must have three and more is nice but not essential. Just keep them on your gift list until you have accumulated enough for your shooting style. My M&P went to Dan Burwell before Apex started coming out with aftermarket parts. I have only seen a couple of guns with Apex drop-ins. One was very nice, the other is not what I would want, but the owner seems happy with it. I have not heard of gunsmithing or non-Walther stuff for the PPQ. What Walther provides is what you shoot. Either would be suitable for USPSA Production as well as IDPA SSP. You would need more magazines for USPSA, their courses of fire are usually longer than IDPA's. Sorry I can't pick for you, but they are equivalent guns in a hotly contested market. You might see if you can get a look at a Sig P320 and H&K VP9 while you are at it. They are striker fired plastic 9mms and are operationally equivalent to PPQ and M&P.

July 23, 2014, 12:11 PM	#5
GJSchulze Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2013 Location: Western New York Posts: 454	I suggest you read the rule book, specifically the part that pertains to legal modifications to guns. You can find it here:http://http://www.idpa.com/compete/rules In general, modifications are limited. External mods may be limited to what the gun manufacturer makes. I wouldn't worry about a loose front fiber optic. If you have one, then someday you will go to shoot and find it missing. That's why guns come with extra fibers. It's easy to replace them, but it requires a lighter to melt the ends. Fiber optic sights are a big plus. You will also need some kind of cover garment. You might also enjoy shooting IPSC/USPSA. You can use the same gun in the production division.

July 23, 2014, 12:26 PM	#6
ART338WM Junior Member Join Date: July 22, 2014 Posts: 12	Thanks for the advice. At the present I have two semi-autos that would work for IDPA, one of them a 5" XD Tactical in .45 acp is the better suited of the two. The other is a XD SC/HC. I was wishing to buy a 9mm for two reasons VS my 45/XD: Cost to reload and shoot and shootabilaty. Lets face it a 9mm is is much easier to shoot quickly and accurately, especially for a novice such my self competing in fast paced shooting like IDPA VS a .45 ACP. But it is good advise I will fallow and start out with my XD Tactical. All I need now is a good stout belt two extra clips, and a good holster for my XD, which there are plenty to choose from. After I"m sure I want to do IDPA long term, then I will invest in a 9mm. Thanks again, Arthur.

July 23, 2014, 05:03 PM	#7
GJSchulze Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2013 Location: Western New York Posts: 454	Our IDPA has a BUG (Backup Gun) match after the regular match. Limited to a 3.8" barrel for semi and 3" for revolver. Our match is three stages, five rounds each. The five rounds, one hit per target is standard for BUG. I use a Blade-tech holster for my xDM 5.25 9mm. I love the gun. If the trigger is the one thing you don't like about the XD, then you can buy a trigger kit from Powder River Precision. I lowered my trigger pull from 5.5 to 3.5 lbs. with the trigger kit and than to 2.7 lbs. with a couple of other changes. All were legal for both IDPA and USPSA.

July 25, 2014, 01:10 AM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Yup. I haven't shot factory loads in years, except for a period 2010-2011 when I was in temporary housing with no shop. I shoot almost entirely IDPA ESP with 9mm subsonics or midrange .45s. I quit CDP when the recoil got hard on the joints.

July 25, 2014, 04:05 AM	#13
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	As the 9mm drops in price, just over $200 per thousand, you can shoot a match a month, normally under 200 rounds, and not break the bank. Your dry fire draw practice will cost nothing. Read the rules, join IDPA, and enjoy yourself. I shoot a Glock 19, and carry the same pistol, TruGlo fiber optic sights, $80.00. Our Club shoots the first Sunday of the month, nice group of guys, watch, and listen. It is additive though!

July 26, 2014, 05:34 PM	#15
fire4606 Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2011 Posts: 216	Owning glocks, m&ps, and a PPQ I don't think you can get a better trigger than on the PPQ, even with connector and spring mods on the glocks and apex internals on the M&P neither are close.

July 26, 2014, 07:50 PM	#16
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Saw my first PPQ at IDPA today. It was reliable and as accurate as the shooter could hold it.

July 29, 2014, 08:58 PM	#17
ART338WM Junior Member Join Date: July 22, 2014 Posts: 12	Sorry I haven't gotten back sooner. I've decided to spend around $100 or so on a good trigger job/replacement for my XD45, and use it at least for the near future and start reloading reduced loads for my 45 if they work and are accurate enough. Lots of excellent advice helping me start IDPA and do so cheaply. Bought a Fobus holster for under $30, am using the mag wells that came with my XD. Also have a never been used HD dark 1.5" brown leather belt for use with a tool belt that's quite stout that I plan on using while competing. AS my XD came with two, I only need one additional mag for now. But I will admit, I am in love/lust with the trigger and erganomics of the new PPQ M2, and it will be difficult resisting the my desire to buy one. All in all I'm getting started in IDPA for under $200, not bad. Thanks again, Arthur.