The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 4, 2010, 09:57 AM   #51
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,022
Weeshoot2,

What barrel length were you testing in? It does sound suspiciously close to the old National Match Hardball from the 60's that was 230 grains at 820 fps. Must be something the 1911 likes in general.

If you don't mind looking, what is the length of that bullet?


To those referring to Alliant's published loads as "maximum", please note that their web site lists those loads without a charge range and as "recipes", suggesting they need no load work up. They are the only powder maker doing that, AFAIK. That tells me they are not necessarily intended to be maximums, but rather to be safe in all guns. I don't trust that, personally, and work up loads always, but if I were posting "recipes" they would all be universally safe starting loads.

Alliant's policy is unclear to me as some of their loads are actually maximum loads in the Speer manual. They seem to share a lot with Speer, both being owned by ATK. The problem with that is some of the Speer manual loads have proven too hot in some guns. So it's quite a muddle. My advice is to work up to Alliant "recipies" from 10% below, then not to be surprised if it turns out they are not up to maximums. The only way most reloaders can check that is to look for them in bullet maker manuals other than Speer's.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

Last edited by Unclenick; August 4, 2010 at 10:12 AM.
Unclenick is online now  
Old August 4, 2010, 10:04 AM   #52
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
R-P 230g non-bonded Golden Saber

THAT load has been tested (and chrono'd) in 3.16", 3.5", 4", 4.25", 5", and 6".

I just went in the shop and miked five; two at .642" and .643"; one at .644".
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old August 4, 2010, 10:13 AM   #53
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,022
Thanks. I didn't have that bullet in the QuickLOAD database, but do now.

Out of curiosity, which barrel length produced 815 fps? Also, if you recall, where was the chrono? I noticed the military currently uses 27.5 feet for 45 ACP (as opposed to the 78 foot distance they use for rifle ammo). I know the 78 foot number is an historical artifact of how early chronographs worked and were set up, but don't know how they came up with 27.5 feet?
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is online now  
Old August 4, 2010, 10:19 AM   #54
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
My 5" BarSto'd Caspian averaged 813fps; customer chrono gave 815fps from his 5" XYZ; the 813fps was an overall average from the 4.25--6" guns.

My chrono (PACT ONE) is placed a measured 12ft from the muzzle. Testing is repeated from the hottest summer days to the coldest sub-zero winter days.
Some ammo was left in my car trunk for 18 months, then retested.
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old August 4, 2010, 11:50 AM   #55
midnightrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 4, 2010
Posts: 134
I havent reloaded for 45 acp but its a big bore. For self defence +1 on the speer GDHPs 200 gr. the powders you want to match to the bullet, not rocket science. If you have a heavy bullet slower powders will give you chief volocity, lighter bullets slightly faster will give good velocity. I have loaded 250 GDHPs in 454 with a medium load 22 gr 2400 shot into soft sandy dirt the bullet expantion is far superior to any other HP i have tried. I would imagine the same expantion with a 200gr designed for 45 acp.

I would think that a 220 gr RN bullet would get an attacker in the obituary with one shot. and its reliable, no feeding issues, penetrates thick clothing. do we really need an expanding HP bullet for self defence in 45 acp?

also another thing to think about is practice, you may have thought of this already but a self defence load is worthless if you cant hit anything with it or it wont feed through your auto. again you may already know this, try to get as much practice in different situations. holster draw fire, most ranges wont let you practice holster fireing cause its dangerous. set up a target out in the woods or sticks, and try to perfect you technique, and be fast at drawing and getting shots on target. practice this drill over and over so its embedded in your mind. the faster you are the better the chance of you surviving a deadly threat.

Last edited by midnightrider; August 4, 2010 at 11:59 AM.
midnightrider is offline  
Old August 4, 2010, 12:27 PM   #56
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
observations

I shot a groundhog from about 15ft with a 220g LTC (fired from a Witness).
I struck the rodent five times COM before it quit trying to escape.
I believe one hit from one of my 9mm guns, using one of my 115g/124g JHPs at a minimum of 1270fps, would have shown dramatically different results.
We really need an expanding bullet in 2010 to shoot people effectively.

I noted in my earlier posts about "reliable" and "controllable".

Skills to survive an actual encounter start in one's mind, but physical skills, like "fast draw" (using the equipment one actually wears) can be practiced repeatedly at any USPSA match.
Try that.
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old August 4, 2010, 01:31 PM   #57
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
+1 ^ You can shoot this drill slowly for practice and learning muscle memory. The speed will come naturally with learned smoothness of draw. Be careful!
Edward429451 is offline  
Old August 4, 2010, 02:29 PM   #58
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,022
Since I am the one who can't be sold on relying on expanding bullets in .45 ACP, I should probably present the other side of the argument.

There was a post about the kind of thing that casts doubt for me at the self-defense board by a fellow whose med student girlfriend interned a forensic rotation with a morgue, and described to him an autopsy on a criminal police had shot five times with .45 Corbon Pow'Rball ammo. The coroner couldn't tell the holes were any different than any other .45 hole, whether made by an expander or a solid. The holes were all through and through. The coroner wasn't familiar with Corbon ammo, so he did have a hard time puzzling out what the little polymer balls were that he found in the wound channels. So, we know they opened up.

I have a copy of Duncan McPherson's Bullet Penetration. It concludes that most expanding handgun bullets simply loose energy in temporary cavities that do no permanent damage and that an agitated goblin won't necessary notice. Response to the nerve stimulation from the non-tearing temporary cavity turns out to be a case-by-case variable and can't be counted on. McPherson seems to feel the energy lost in the non-traumatizing temporary cavities would be better spent doing greater physical damage further along.

From Dr. Marin Fackler's review of the book (here, if you want to read it) is this quote:

Quote:
MacPherson has included an outline of the contents of his book's chapters in the introduction, as well as providing an excellent summary at the end of each chapter. He exposes and corrects common fallacies -- such as the presumption that kinetic energy determines bullet effect. In that section we find:
  • Newton's laws of motion describe forces and momentum transfer, not energy relationships
  • Damage is done by stress (force), not energy.
  • Stresses cause damage only if they strain body tissues above their elastic limits. Most expanding handgun bullets simply waste the kinetic energy used in producing the small temporary cavities they cause.
The flat nose projectiles are another matter. They seem to put a good tearing pull on tissue, producing hydrostatic damage beyond their diameter. Veral Smith worked that out empirically long ago. In a rifle, large caliber flat noses do amazing amounts of damage. Handgun hunters with magnum revolvers report the same. In standard handguns, it's less dramatic, but at no disadvantage to expanders that I can tell, but they do penetrate better. And that's my main reason for favoring them.

What is interesting about this, related to the OP, is how it applies to choosing a defensive handgun bullet. McPherson's was the first suggestion I'd seen in a scientific investigation that a hollow point expending destructive potential in a non-destructive temporary cavity might actually put it at a disadvantage. Yet, in the FBI shootout in Miami, exactly that happened. A Winchester Silvertip 9 mm striking from the side and headed straight to the heart of one of the perpetrators stopped short, having lost all momentum to the expanded frontal area's fluid resistance.

Since that wake-up call, bullet designs have been improved to have both expansion and more penetration, and that train hasn't stopped moving, so you want to keep an eye on new developments. But I think the upshot of Fackler's and McPherson's work has been to challenge the underlying assumption made since the 1800's, that because a hollow point is a good thing in a rifle means it is automatically a good thing in a lower power pistol bullet.

One thing that has occurred to me in the past is to take an example from defensive shotgun, wherein it is not uncommon to alternate between buckshot and slugs in the magazine. It might not be unreasonable to alternate between hollow points and solids in a handgun. In that way, with the hammer (double-tap) you get whichever works best on your guy. If he responds to nerve stimulation from the temporary cavity faster than a through and through hole, fine. If he doesn't, he's still on his way down. Going to be hard to credit the stop to one or the other, but it covers all bases.

As with all things shooting, YMMV. Guarantees seem hard to come by. You need to choose what you are comfortable with.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

Last edited by Unclenick; August 5, 2010 at 10:01 AM.
Unclenick is online now  
Old August 5, 2010, 08:39 PM   #59
WESHOOT2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
I took a different example

I examined the cartridge specified by a certain Federal unit charged with shooting people using the 45 ACP cartridge.

If I simply wanted something eventually dead I would always choose a non-expanding projectile with a large-for-diameter meplat and a high sectional density, but since I normally want something to STOP RIGHT NOW, not caring if dead enters the equation, I normally choose a HP design proven to expand in the intended 'media'.
In fact, I personally normally choose a fast .355" HP projectile.

Except I always wear a 22LR loaded with 40g LRN.......
__________________
.
"all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"
WESHOOT2 is offline  
Old August 5, 2010, 08:50 PM   #60
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,487
Quote:
To those referring to Alliant's published loads as "maximum", please note that their web site lists those loads without a charge range and as "recipes", suggesting they need no load work up.
This only applies to people who do not read the opening page where it says:
"REDUCE RIFLE AND HANDGUN CHARGE WEIGHTS BY 10% TO ESTABLISH A STARTING LOAD. The exceptions to this are the loads listed as "target" in the 38 Special and 45 ACP data tables".
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx

I agree that the use of the term "recipe" is a poor choice of words.
Jim Watson is online now  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.06858 seconds with 8 queries