Alternative force and the firearm

Hilton · October 29, 1998, 08:29 PM

I was teaching an edged weapons class this past spring, and during a break was demonstrating some weapon retention techniques with an ASP Redgun. Though most of the students had high quality firearms training, I noted that very few of them had a working familiarity with techniques for retaining the weapon or utilizing alternative force.

Without going into specific techniques, I feel that it is crucial for anyone carrying a weapon to be familiar with techniques for:
-a grab at an unholstered weapon
-a grab at a holstered weapon
-alternative force techniques when your weapon is drawn but deadly force is not warranted

How does this change your outlook on training and equipment? If you train in martial arts, take a moment to see how your current regimen accomodates weapons deployment. Consider that the training day at the range and the time in the dojo might want to meet halfway with some Redgun training time with a partner.

Rob Pincus · October 29, 1998, 11:08 PM

Retention training is an incredibly important and often overlooked area. Although, many departments are starting to be more and more aware of the need for this type of training. I believe you will see fewer and fewer instances of officers shot with their own weapons in the future, due to the increase in awareness of this facet of training.

Personally, I have always worried more about the situation of retaining a unholstered weapon while still defending yourself it you misread a situation and draw early, or you are suddenly faced with a violent but 'no-shoot' situation. The guy I do most of my training with and I go over rentention, both duty rig and unholstered about every other time we get together.

Another area that relates to this is HTH with a weapon in your holster, with a CCW. We pratice several scenarios which involve a direct physical confrontation before the gun is drawn, requiring a strike-draw-fire or other sequence of actions. Obviously, this situation requires you to use your non-gun hand in the initial strike and can be pretty awkward when first practiced. (btw- we do this with an empty gun several times BEFORE going through live fire drills, everytime... you can shoot yourself or your friends if you start "playing around" without working the scenario and being comfortable with a redgun or appropriately safe weapon.)

lewis · October 30, 1998, 12:39 AM

I am a member of a Judo club that has a 2 police officers and 2 certified police instructor civilians that are also Judo instructors. We have a once a week class that is only open to cops and high ranking students. We are not excluding the general student populace just because they are not police but because this class is very frank and as realistic as we can possibly make it.
We only want the mature students involved.

Anyway, a couple of weeks ago one of the instructors brought in some redguns and some nylon duty gear and we went at it hard working gun retention techniques. It was so different from all the in service training BS that I've had that it is hard to make a comparison. In this class, we believe the old adage that the more you hurt in the dojo, the less you hurt on the street. When someone is really trying to take your gun and will hurt you to do it instead of making a half assed grab and then letting go when you do a simulated strike, it is hard to hold onto. I found that the best thing to do is not let them get close enough to get touch the gun if you can. Once they reach for it, anything goes. If you are on the ground, roll over onto your gun side and get the gun between you and the ground. Fight for time and if you can get the breathing room, shoot the SOB. We went until the gun was taken, somebody tapped out, or a the good guy was able to get a shot.

Another thing we discovered was that most of the shots (simulated obviuosly) taken were at contact range and to the chest or stomach area. I pointed out that I always wear body armor on duty. Not that I would just let them shoot me by any stretch, but if they do get the gun in a grappling match and you get shot, don't stop fighting unless you are unconcious. Also, I believe that just about everytime a shot was taken, the fight was still on with hands all over the gun. Once that first round goes off, count on that weapon being jammed up if it is a semi auto.
If you are on the trigger end this is bad, but if you are on the muzzle end and don't get hit or are hit in the body armor, it is good.

I guess my main point is that most weapon retention classes I have been in are full of BULL! Train with people who like you enough to put you in some pain when you screw up. It might save your life later. I know that 30 seconds on the mat with someone who can and will bruise me up is a lifetime. 30 seconds on the pavement with someone trying o kill you is a real possibility and if you don't train for it, you are selling yourself short.

Lewis

Spectre · October 30, 1998, 12:45 AM

As the head of my dojo (Bud Malstrom) says, "Fight until you can go home or the light goes out."

He instructs one of the local PD's...

gdeal · November 20, 2005, 03:35 AM

Yes I believe that Firearms training and some form of hand to hand combat should coincide.

k9lwt · December 2, 2005, 09:02 PM

If someone tries to take my unholstered weapon, he is going to get shot until the threat stops. Attempting to take a weapon from a LEO will be an instruction in justified deadly force.

Handgun retention is something that has been in every defensive tactics class that I have been in. I don't know how someone could be issued a weapon and not be trained how to keep it from prying hands.

Scott Evans · December 4, 2005, 06:17 PM

Hilton you have me thinking.

OK; I have trained some on retaining the weapon when holstered.

I have trained on gun grab techniques with me being the one grabbing the weapon.

I have trained so as to be aware that my un-holstered weapon might be grabbed so I would try to prevent such by staying out of reach, approaching corners or other danger areas so as the weapon dose not lead my line of sight. But I don’t know any techniques should my preventive measures fail.

I have also not considered HTH scenarios with my weapon already drawn. I suppose that my thinking on this is that I would not draw it if the situation was not escalating to Deadly force.

Please fill me in. Give me a scenario and a response and also recommend some training sources. or ... Rob when will you be in NC again?

November 20, 2005, 03:35 AM	#5
gdeal Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 748	Self Defense Training Yes I believe that Firearms training and some form of hand to hand combat should coincide.

December 4, 2005, 06:17 PM	#7
Scott Evans Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 7, 1998 Location: Jacksonville, NC Posts: 1,380	Hilton you have me thinking. OK; I have trained some on retaining the weapon when holstered. I have trained on gun grab techniques with me being the one grabbing the weapon. I have trained so as to be aware that my un-holstered weapon might be grabbed so I would try to prevent such by staying out of reach, approaching corners or other danger areas so as the weapon dose not lead my line of sight. But I don’t know any techniques should my preventive measures fail. I have also not considered HTH scenarios with my weapon already drawn. I suppose that my thinking on this is that I would not draw it if the situation was not escalating to Deadly force. Please fill me in. Give me a scenario and a response and also recommend some training sources. or ... Rob when will you be in NC again? __________________ “This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine …” MOLON LABE ! I’m a G-CODE holster fan ! www.range5.com

October 29, 1998, 08:29 PM	#1
Hilton Member Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Posts: 69	I was teaching an edged weapons class this past spring, and during a break was demonstrating some weapon retention techniques with an ASP Redgun. Though most of the students had high quality firearms training, I noted that very few of them had a working familiarity with techniques for retaining the weapon or utilizing alternative force. Without going into specific techniques, I feel that it is crucial for anyone carrying a weapon to be familiar with techniques for: -a grab at an unholstered weapon -a grab at a holstered weapon -alternative force techniques when your weapon is drawn but deadly force is not warranted How does this change your outlook on training and equipment? If you train in martial arts, take a moment to see how your current regimen accomodates weapons deployment. Consider that the training day at the range and the time in the dojo might want to meet halfway with some Redgun training time with a partner.

October 29, 1998, 11:08 PM	#2
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Retention training is an incredibly important and often overlooked area. Although, many departments are starting to be more and more aware of the need for this type of training. I believe you will see fewer and fewer instances of officers shot with their own weapons in the future, due to the increase in awareness of this facet of training. Personally, I have always worried more about the situation of retaining a unholstered weapon while still defending yourself it you misread a situation and draw early, or you are suddenly faced with a violent but 'no-shoot' situation. The guy I do most of my training with and I go over rentention, both duty rig and unholstered about every other time we get together. Another area that relates to this is HTH with a weapon in your holster, with a CCW. We pratice several scenarios which involve a direct physical confrontation before the gun is drawn, requiring a strike-draw-fire or other sequence of actions. Obviously, this situation requires you to use your non-gun hand in the initial strike and can be pretty awkward when first practiced. (btw- we do this with an empty gun several times BEFORE going through live fire drills, everytime... you can shoot yourself or your friends if you start "playing around" without working the scenario and being comfortable with a redgun or appropriately safe weapon.)

October 30, 1998, 12:39 AM	#3
lewis Member Join Date: October 27, 1998 Location: louisville,KY,USA Posts: 43	I am a member of a Judo club that has a 2 police officers and 2 certified police instructor civilians that are also Judo instructors. We have a once a week class that is only open to cops and high ranking students. We are not excluding the general student populace just because they are not police but because this class is very frank and as realistic as we can possibly make it. We only want the mature students involved. Anyway, a couple of weeks ago one of the instructors brought in some redguns and some nylon duty gear and we went at it hard working gun retention techniques. It was so different from all the in service training BS that I've had that it is hard to make a comparison. In this class, we believe the old adage that the more you hurt in the dojo, the less you hurt on the street. When someone is really trying to take your gun and will hurt you to do it instead of making a half assed grab and then letting go when you do a simulated strike, it is hard to hold onto. I found that the best thing to do is not let them get close enough to get touch the gun if you can. Once they reach for it, anything goes. If you are on the ground, roll over onto your gun side and get the gun between you and the ground. Fight for time and if you can get the breathing room, shoot the SOB. We went until the gun was taken, somebody tapped out, or a the good guy was able to get a shot. Another thing we discovered was that most of the shots (simulated obviuosly) taken were at contact range and to the chest or stomach area. I pointed out that I always wear body armor on duty. Not that I would just let them shoot me by any stretch, but if they do get the gun in a grappling match and you get shot, don't stop fighting unless you are unconcious. Also, I believe that just about everytime a shot was taken, the fight was still on with hands all over the gun. Once that first round goes off, count on that weapon being jammed up if it is a semi auto. If you are on the trigger end this is bad, but if you are on the muzzle end and don't get hit or are hit in the body armor, it is good. I guess my main point is that most weapon retention classes I have been in are full of BULL! Train with people who like you enough to put you in some pain when you screw up. It might save your life later. I know that 30 seconds on the mat with someone who can and will bruise me up is a lifetime. 30 seconds on the pavement with someone trying o kill you is a real possibility and if you don't train for it, you are selling yourself short. Lewis

October 30, 1998, 12:45 AM	#4
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	As the head of my dojo (Bud Malstrom) says, "Fight until you can go home or the light goes out." He instructs one of the local PD's...

December 2, 2005, 09:02 PM	#6
k9lwt Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2005 Location: Posts: 123	If someone tries to take my unholstered weapon, he is going to get shot until the threat stops. Attempting to take a weapon from a LEO will be an instruction in justified deadly force. Handgun retention is something that has been in every defensive tactics class that I have been in. I don't know how someone could be issued a weapon and not be trained how to keep it from prying hands.