NFA approvals have stalled? - Page 2

Art Eatman · February 9, 2017, 09:59 AM

Feedback from a BATFE guy to my local Class III dealer is that Hq is snowed under with creation of trusts and with suppressors. It's a budget thing as to the number of people on the paperwork.

BATFE Hq is fully in favor of the Hearing Protection Act.

Ghostpepper5K · February 14, 2017, 07:50 PM

I just spoke with a friend who took possession of some form 3 guns - SBR reg lower and can - 16 mos through a trust. Background is A+.

dogtown tom · February 14, 2017, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Ghostpepper5K I just spoke with a friend who took possession of some form 3 guns - SBR reg lower and can - 16 mos through a trust. Background is A+.

Huh?

Form 3 is a tax free transfer between FFL/SOT's.
A trust wouldn't have anything to do with it and prior to 41F no one would have had their background checked.

Scubasimmons · February 16, 2017, 01:47 AM

Submitted my suppressor from 1 in late June....and counting. My check was cashed two weeks after submittal.

9x19 · February 16, 2017, 08:40 AM

Two Form 4s submitted on 5/5/16: one approved 1/30/17; the other approved on 2/7/17.

MadDawg · March 11, 2017, 03:25 AM

The way I see it, 41F was a scheme by the government to curb sales of silencers and other NFA items... Nothing more, nothing less.

It wasn't about stopping crime, or stopping criminals from getting a hold of weapons that they should not possess; criminals are criminals and don't really care about breaking the laws in the first place; all gun restrictions are merely tools against law abiding gun owners meant to discourage ownership.

41F is a great idea in that respect; it does something that would be otherwise frowned upon to be done against, again, law abiding gun owners. If a criminal got arrested for a crime, does the family members get their mugshots taken, fingerprinted, and forced to sign witness statements ? No, certainly that'd be frowned upon.. But law abiding citizens, desiring to purchase a silencer, or other nfa item, under a trust, must now do that. Prior, if I wanted to purchase a silencer, and add it to my trust, all I had to do was pony up for the silencer, and submit my paperwork, and wait. Now, I have to drag the wife, and anyone else on the trust, down, and have them fingerprinted, mugshot taken, and interviewed - all because I decided to purchase something.. Now, the wife is involved; how many wives will tell the husband - "Uh, NO honey... " and be forced to walk away.. How many will no longer bother trying ? Yes, some think it's because the HPA might get passed; honestly, I don't see it getting passed in its current form; and it won't likely get passed in the next few years; gov't folks in the ATF are now going to say - look- less people are buying now- no need to remove suppressors from the NFA as they aren't becoming as common place as trends had suggested... Some of your reps are going to vote no anyways as silencers are seen as assassin's tools...

41F was the ATF's answer to rising sales of NFA items... It was designed to slow down the process, and negatively impact those considering purchasing them- by forcing inclusion of everyone else on the trusts.. The fingerprints, mugshots, and additional forms give them reasons to "take more time".. How many wives will associate getting their mugshots taken, and being finger printed, and filling out statements, and oh, it's legal to purchase --- together ? Nope, they will feel like criminals- and not want to do it.. The truth is, you can purchase a gun with reasonable assurance that you are not a felon - using the NICS system in 15 minutes at a gun store, alone, but it now takes the better part of a year for some gov't employee to look over a handful of forms, cash a $200 check, and slap a stamp on a form, & mail it back to you.. Just by forcing inclusion of the wives, which are on many trusts, means far less NFA items will be purchased.. That was the intention of 41F, and it's working as designed.

dogtown tom · March 11, 2017, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Today 02:25 AM
MadDawg The way I see it, 41F was a scheme by the government to curb sales of silencers and other NFA items... Nothing more, nothing less.

It wasn't about stopping crime, or stopping criminals from getting a hold of weapons that they should not possess; criminals are criminals and don't really care about breaking the laws in the first place; all gun restrictions are merely tools against law abiding gun owners meant to discourage ownership.

41F is a great idea in that respect; it does something that would be otherwise frowned upon to be done against, again, law abiding gun owners. If a criminal got arrested for a crime, does the family members get their mugshots taken, fingerprinted, and forced to sign witness statements ? No, certainly that'd be frowned upon.. But law abiding citizens, desiring to purchase a silencer, or other nfa item, under a trust, must now do that. Prior, if I wanted to purchase a silencer, and add it to my trust, all I had to do was pony up for the silencer, and submit my paperwork, and wait. Now, I have to drag the wife, and anyone else on the trust, down, and have them fingerprinted, mugshot taken, and interviewed - all because I decided to purchase something.. Now, the wife is involved; how many wives will tell the husband - "Uh, NO honey... " and be forced to walk away.. How many will no longer bother trying ? Yes, some think it's because the HPA might get passed; honestly, I don't see it getting passed in its current form; and it won't likely get passed in the next few years; gov't folks in the ATF are now going to say - look- less people are buying now- no need to remove suppressors from the NFA as they aren't becoming as common place as trends had suggested... Some of your reps are going to vote no anyways as silencers are seen as assassin's tools...

41F was the ATF's answer to rising sales of NFA items... It was designed to slow down the process, and negatively impact those considering purchasing them- by forcing inclusion of everyone else on the trusts.. The fingerprints, mugshots, and additional forms give them reasons to "take more time".. How many wives will associate getting their mugshots taken, and being finger printed, and filling out statements, and oh, it's legal to purchase --- together ? Nope, they will feel like criminals- and not want to do it.. The truth is, you can purchase a gun with reasonable assurance that you are not a felon - using the NICS system in 15 minutes at a gun store, alone, but it now takes the better part of a year for some gov't employee to look over a handful of forms, cash a $200 check, and slap a stamp on a form, & mail it back to you.. Just by forcing inclusion of the wives, which are on many trusts, means far less NFA items will be purchased.. That was the intention of 41F, and it's working as designed.

Nice rant and I feel your pain......but all that has happened is that trusts and their members are treated exactly as individuals have been since 1934.

Where was your anger then?

41F has actually made it EASIER for individuals.

Tinbucket · March 11, 2017, 06:28 PM

I have no direct information, however I offer this for consideration.
Only heads of some agencies have been replaced thus far and some on down the line.
Subversives or holdovers are doing their darnedest to impede the new Leadership and even acting as moles to the Obama organization.
It appears to be taking quite a while to replace Obama Appointees, and even longer if possible those Appointees he made Career People.
Maybe in 6 months everyone will see changes across the board and easier/faster dealing with BATF, if the agency is still around.

agtman · March 11, 2017, 06:31 PM

Quote:

41F has actually made it EASIER for individuals.

Clearly, ... since it removed the most complained-about impediment, which was the necessity of a CLEO sign-off.

Now, all individual NFA applicants in a state in which it is otherwise lawful to own an NFA item can't be discriminated against any more just because a particular County or local (i.e., city, township, village, district) CLEO is anti-NFA.

Pre-41F, some CLEOs weren't, but many were; now, in the post-41-F environment, there's a level playing field when filing as an individual.

Theohazard · March 11, 2017, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadDawg

The way I see it, 41F was a scheme by the government to curb sales of silencers and other NFA items... Nothing more, nothing less.

No, I think 41F was a good thing that will increase the overall sales of silencers and other NFA items.

Since 41F went into effect, I've sold many, many silencers and SBRs to people who are getting their first NFA item. Previously, they didn't want to go the trust route and getting a sign-off was virtually impossible here. But 41F leveled the playing field for trusts and individuals and removed the sign-off permission slip completely.

The current slowdown in NFA sales is for two reasons: 1) All the trust people who spent all their money getting in before the July 13th deadline, and 2) all the people who are holding off on buying a silencer because they're waiting for the Hearing Protection Act to be passed. But even if the HPA never passes, I think 41F was a good thing for the silencer industry and NFA sales in general.

Theohazard · March 11, 2017, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadDawg

Prior, if I wanted to purchase a silencer, and add it to my trust, all I had to do was pony up for the silencer, and submit my paperwork, and wait. Now, I have to drag the wife, and anyone else on the trust, down, and have them fingerprinted, mugshot taken, and interviewed - all because I decided to purchase something.. Now, the wife is involved; how many wives will tell the husband - "Uh, NO honey... " and be forced to walk away.. How many will no longer bother trying ?

There are no interviews, I'm not sure where you got that from. If you have a trust, all you need to do is get all the other "responsible persons" on your trust fingerprinted and photographed, and they need to sign a form. That's it. And if that's too much hassle or they refuse, you have two other options: You can either buy the item as an individual or you can just remove those people from your trust, file for the item, then put them back on the trust when the tax stamp comes in.

Yes, I agree that 41F made things a little more of a pain for trust holders. But since it removed the sign-off, it made things WAY easier for individual purchases. Here in western WA, sign-offs were virtually impossible to get. I've personally sold thousands of NFA items since 2012, and I never once handled an individual NFA transfer until 41F went into effect. Now, all the people who didn't want to deal with a trust don't have to, and they're coming into our shop to buy their first NFA item.

9x19 · March 12, 2017, 09:20 AM

Why was a trust more difficult than photos, finger-prints, CLEO sign-off before 41F?

Now what used to be simple - drafting and having a trust notarized - is much more complicated - requiring photos and fingerprints.

HPA is going nowhere, but rolling back the 41F changes only requires a new Dept (still Treasury) Secretary, or ATFE head.

I'm done buying anything NFA as long as they want photos/fingerprints first.

The two local shops here that have SOTs have seen their sales flat-line since last summer. Nobody is buying, some (I suspect) because of the (I think false) promise of the HPA passing, others (like me) who are rust holders, because they don't want to go thru the 41F hassle.

dogtown tom · March 12, 2017, 03:49 PM

Quote:

9x19 Why was a trust more difficult than photos, finger-prints, CLEO sign-off before 41F?

It wasn't.

zeke · March 13, 2017, 06:32 AM

Received several Form 4 stamps last week, after 9 months. Checks cashed early June last year, and used trust.

After the pre 41f buying spree, am unlikely to add any more. Am not convinced congress is really interested in making any changes to ease future purchases, but who really knows?

fl_rich · March 16, 2017, 07:42 PM

Got mine on Monday! Liberty MysticX

Silencer Shop ordered it from Liberty 2-28-2016
Form 3 to LGS 5-12-2016
LGS received Mystic X 5-28-2016
Form 4 trust docs submitted 6-6-2016
Check cashed 6-18-2016
Stamp postmarked 3-8-2017
LGS recieved stamp 3-14-2017
I picked it all up and tested it 3-15-2017

February 16, 2017, 08:40 AM	#30
9x19 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Sherman, TX USA Posts: 3,750	Two Form 4s submitted on 5/5/16: one approved 1/30/17; the other approved on 2/7/17. __________________ Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!

March 11, 2017, 06:28 PM	#33
Tinbucket Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2015 Posts: 355	NFA approvals have stalled I have no direct information, however I offer this for consideration. Only heads of some agencies have been replaced thus far and some on down the line. Subversives or holdovers are doing their darnedest to impede the new Leadership and even acting as moles to the Obama organization. It appears to be taking quite a while to replace Obama Appointees, and even longer if possible those Appointees he made Career People. Maybe in 6 months everyone will see changes across the board and easier/faster dealing with BATF, if the agency is still around.

March 12, 2017, 09:20 AM	#37
9x19 Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Sherman, TX USA Posts: 3,750	Why was a trust more difficult than photos, finger-prints, CLEO sign-off before 41F? Now what used to be simple - drafting and having a trust notarized - is much more complicated - requiring photos and fingerprints. HPA is going nowhere, but rolling back the 41F changes only requires a new Dept (still Treasury) Secretary, or ATFE head. I'm done buying anything NFA as long as they want photos/fingerprints first. The two local shops here that have SOTs have seen their sales flat-line since last summer. Nobody is buying, some (I suspect) because of the (I think false) promise of the HPA passing, others (like me) who are rust holders, because they don't want to go thru the 41F hassle. __________________ Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19! Last edited by 9x19; March 12, 2017 at 09:29 AM.

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February 9, 2017, 09:59 AM	#26
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Feedback from a BATFE guy to my local Class III dealer is that Hq is snowed under with creation of trusts and with suppressors. It's a budget thing as to the number of people on the paperwork. BATFE Hq is fully in favor of the Hearing Protection Act.

February 14, 2017, 07:50 PM	#27
Ghostpepper5K Member Join Date: February 12, 2017 Posts: 17	I just spoke with a friend who took possession of some form 3 guns - SBR reg lower and can - 16 mos through a trust. Background is A+.

February 16, 2017, 01:47 AM	#29
Scubasimmons Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Location: Sammamish, WA Posts: 119	Submitted my suppressor from 1 in late June....and counting. My check was cashed two weeks after submittal.

March 11, 2017, 03:25 AM	#31
MadDawg Member Join Date: December 27, 2014 Posts: 51	The way I see it, 41F was a scheme by the government to curb sales of silencers and other NFA items... Nothing more, nothing less. It wasn't about stopping crime, or stopping criminals from getting a hold of weapons that they should not possess; criminals are criminals and don't really care about breaking the laws in the first place; all gun restrictions are merely tools against law abiding gun owners meant to discourage ownership. 41F is a great idea in that respect; it does something that would be otherwise frowned upon to be done against, again, law abiding gun owners. If a criminal got arrested for a crime, does the family members get their mugshots taken, fingerprinted, and forced to sign witness statements ? No, certainly that'd be frowned upon.. But law abiding citizens, desiring to purchase a silencer, or other nfa item, under a trust, must now do that. Prior, if I wanted to purchase a silencer, and add it to my trust, all I had to do was pony up for the silencer, and submit my paperwork, and wait. Now, I have to drag the wife, and anyone else on the trust, down, and have them fingerprinted, mugshot taken, and interviewed - all because I decided to purchase something.. Now, the wife is involved; how many wives will tell the husband - "Uh, NO honey... " and be forced to walk away.. How many will no longer bother trying ? Yes, some think it's because the HPA might get passed; honestly, I don't see it getting passed in its current form; and it won't likely get passed in the next few years; gov't folks in the ATF are now going to say - look- less people are buying now- no need to remove suppressors from the NFA as they aren't becoming as common place as trends had suggested... Some of your reps are going to vote no anyways as silencers are seen as assassin's tools... 41F was the ATF's answer to rising sales of NFA items... It was designed to slow down the process, and negatively impact those considering purchasing them- by forcing inclusion of everyone else on the trusts.. The fingerprints, mugshots, and additional forms give them reasons to "take more time".. How many wives will associate getting their mugshots taken, and being finger printed, and filling out statements, and oh, it's legal to purchase --- together ? Nope, they will feel like criminals- and not want to do it.. The truth is, you can purchase a gun with reasonable assurance that you are not a felon - using the NICS system in 15 minutes at a gun store, alone, but it now takes the better part of a year for some gov't employee to look over a handful of forms, cash a $200 check, and slap a stamp on a form, & mail it back to you.. Just by forcing inclusion of the wives, which are on many trusts, means far less NFA items will be purchased.. That was the intention of 41F, and it's working as designed.

March 13, 2017, 06:32 AM	#39
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	Received several Form 4 stamps last week, after 9 months. Checks cashed early June last year, and used trust. After the pre 41f buying spree, am unlikely to add any more. Am not convinced congress is really interested in making any changes to ease future purchases, but who really knows?

March 16, 2017, 07:42 PM	#40
fl_rich Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2015 Posts: 103	Got mine on Monday! Liberty MysticX Silencer Shop ordered it from Liberty 2-28-2016 Form 3 to LGS 5-12-2016 LGS received Mystic X 5-28-2016 Form 4 trust docs submitted 6-6-2016 Check cashed 6-18-2016 Stamp postmarked 3-8-2017 LGS recieved stamp 3-14-2017 I picked it all up and tested it 3-15-2017