1947 No5 Mk1's unissued?

deerslayer303 · June 7, 2016, 06:27 PM

Hello All,
I was cruising the net and ran across a thread on the Jungle Carbine it was quite interesting and the gentleman that posted in it seemed quite knowledgeable on these particular rifles. He made a statement that 1947 No.5's were unissued. Which just by the date makes sense I guess. But it got me to thinking about the rifle that I have. I have had no reason to ever believe that its not a true No.5. It has all the tell tales, etc and is dated 10/47. But the rifle looks EXTREMELY good. The furniture is beautiful as is the metal. The serial number stamped on the stock matches the receiver. And the bore looks fantastic, like new. SO, do I have an unissued Jungle Carbine? My rifle was drilled and tapped for a scope base by some knucklehead in the past ( an issue I'm looking to correct with a local gun smith) and it has a 300 / 600 flip peep rear sight. I have to find the correct rear sight for it. Thanks for any insight.

shuvelrider · June 7, 2016, 08:55 PM

From my information, 1947 would have been the last year of production. Tooling and assembly was moved to India, since they were a colony of the Brit empire. Kept in storage as "war reserves" is possible to explain the condition of yours. The rear sight could be what they had on hand of spare parts by that time, or someone swapped it out for some unknown reason. http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/ would be a good site to find out more, find the Enfield page and select the #5 option. Someone their should be able to help, they like pics for reference. I have an unissued French MAS 49/56 that is dated on the barrel 1962, so it is possible.

kilimanjaro · June 7, 2016, 10:23 PM

I have two 1947s, both of them were issued.

They were used by British forces in WWII, as well as in Kenya, Malaya and Cyprus, so I don't see how large stocks would have remained unissued while the carbine was still in some level of service, as well as being provided to Colonial forces around the globe.

shuvelrider · June 8, 2016, 11:22 AM

Perhaps the OP could post some pics of his rifle, it could have been refurbed at some point in time. We can assume and opine all day about old war rifles, and we still might never know the story of these rifles. I wish the OP luck in having a nice condition #5JC. Mine is dated from 1945, nice condition but far from pristine.

T. O'Heir · June 8, 2016, 12:03 PM

Don't believe No. 5 Rifles were ever issued with the battle sight.
The best indication of 'real or not' is where it was made. Only made by BSA-Shirley and ROF Fazakerley. Should be finished with Suncorite too.
The "drilled and tapped for a scope base" drops its value by half.
Surplus Rifles lists the No. 5 under "Enfield-Enfield Savage Rifles".
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kh9guf4wv...MKJajVKra?dl=0

deerslayer303 · June 8, 2016, 12:38 PM

Here are a few pics.

deerslayer303 · June 8, 2016, 12:40 PM

deerslayer303 · June 8, 2016, 12:51 PM

This thing is probably my favorite of all the old war horses I have. Its so light and handy. Its not a bench rest rifle but I have no problem putting them in a 4-5" group on a paper plate at 100 yards. I feel I may do better with the original type sight, I don't know. Heck it may make a trip to the woods this season. I want to get those holes in the receiver fixed too.

kilimanjaro · June 8, 2016, 01:26 PM

You've got a nice one. Do replace that sight with the original ladder 800-yard ladder sight, and fill the scope holes and touch up the finish there.

Slamfire · June 8, 2016, 04:54 PM

Mine is a Mar 1945 and hardly looked issued. The importer claimed it came from the Hong Kong Police.

There were plenty of rifles made during and after the war, that for whatever reason, were not issued. These things happened, some lots got stuck in the Armory of a base that was deactivated, then shipped to some central location, and forgotten about for decades.

What matters is the condition now. If it looks good, it is good.

shuvelrider · June 8, 2016, 09:51 PM

Very nice! Your right, those D&T holes scream out wanting to be filled in. Perhaps some plug screws with some loctite.

deerslayer303 · June 8, 2016, 10:01 PM

I had thought about putting some plug screws in and filing them flat, then some cold blue or something. But I think you would still see them. I have talked to a local smith amd he says he can fix it. But he never elaborated how.

shuvelrider · June 9, 2016, 05:07 PM

I would use the plug screws and call it good, put them in flush and anchor with loctite. File work will highlight bare metal that would need to be finished over, which means more work. I have heard of gunsmiths who will weld the holes and refinish, but that will get pricey. As someone stated and as you know already, the collector value has been reduced simply by the presence of those holes--------if you ever sell it to a collector. I suggest plug the holes as mentioned, for the cheapest solution, and then shoot that thing and enjoy it.

deerslayer303 · June 9, 2016, 05:19 PM

Thanks Shuvelrider, I will do just that. The ole rifle isn't going anywhere while I'm breathing. Maybe after I go on the wife will probably sell it for what I told her I paid for it.

shuvelrider · June 9, 2016, 09:46 PM

My JC at the bottom, same maker as yours but dated 1945. Try Numerich Arms for the 800 yard ladder site.

Dfariswheel · June 10, 2016, 09:24 PM

1947 #5 Jungle Carbines were issued and used, but a number of them were never issued and were sold in brand new condition in the 1960's.
These were bought from the British and imported by Interarms.

I've seen several of these unissued carbines and many of them had "S" marked Short stocks.
Apparently, as the #5 was being discontinued there was no need for the Short stock models for British troops so they were never used.

June 7, 2016, 06:27 PM	#1
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,653	1947 No5 Mk1's unissued? Hello All, I was cruising the net and ran across a thread on the Jungle Carbine it was quite interesting and the gentleman that posted in it seemed quite knowledgeable on these particular rifles. He made a statement that 1947 No.5's were unissued. Which just by the date makes sense I guess. But it got me to thinking about the rifle that I have. I have had no reason to ever believe that its not a true No.5. It has all the tell tales, etc and is dated 10/47. But the rifle looks EXTREMELY good. The furniture is beautiful as is the metal. The serial number stamped on the stock matches the receiver. And the bore looks fantastic, like new. SO, do I have an unissued Jungle Carbine? My rifle was drilled and tapped for a scope base by some knucklehead in the past ( an issue I'm looking to correct with a local gun smith) and it has a 300 / 600 flip peep rear sight. I have to find the correct rear sight for it. Thanks for any insight. __________________ "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

June 8, 2016, 12:51 PM	#8
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,653	This thing is probably my favorite of all the old war horses I have. Its so light and handy. Its not a bench rest rifle but I have no problem putting them in a 4-5" group on a paper plate at 100 yards. I feel I may do better with the original type sight, I don't know. Heck it may make a trip to the woods this season. I want to get those holes in the receiver fixed too. __________________ "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

June 8, 2016, 04:54 PM	#10
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	Mine is a Mar 1945 and hardly looked issued. The importer claimed it came from the Hong Kong Police. There were plenty of rifles made during and after the war, that for whatever reason, were not issued. These things happened, some lots got stuck in the Armory of a base that was deactivated, then shipped to some central location, and forgotten about for decades. What matters is the condition now. If it looks good, it is good. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

June 9, 2016, 05:19 PM	#14
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,653	Thanks Shuvelrider, I will do just that. The ole rifle isn't going anywhere while I'm breathing. Maybe after I go on the wife will probably sell it for what I told her I paid for it. __________________ "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

June 7, 2016, 08:55 PM	#2
shuvelrider Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2011 Location: West Coast of Michigan Posts: 132	From my information, 1947 would have been the last year of production. Tooling and assembly was moved to India, since they were a colony of the Brit empire. Kept in storage as "war reserves" is possible to explain the condition of yours. The rear sight could be what they had on hand of spare parts by that time, or someone swapped it out for some unknown reason. http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/ would be a good site to find out more, find the Enfield page and select the #5 option. Someone their should be able to help, they like pics for reference. I have an unissued French MAS 49/56 that is dated on the barrel 1962, so it is possible.

June 7, 2016, 10:23 PM	#3
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	I have two 1947s, both of them were issued. They were used by British forces in WWII, as well as in Kenya, Malaya and Cyprus, so I don't see how large stocks would have remained unissued while the carbine was still in some level of service, as well as being provided to Colonial forces around the globe.

June 8, 2016, 11:22 AM	#4
shuvelrider Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2011 Location: West Coast of Michigan Posts: 132	Perhaps the OP could post some pics of his rifle, it could have been refurbed at some point in time. We can assume and opine all day about old war rifles, and we still might never know the story of these rifles. I wish the OP luck in having a nice condition #5JC. Mine is dated from 1945, nice condition but far from pristine.

June 8, 2016, 12:03 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Don't believe No. 5 Rifles were ever issued with the battle sight. The best indication of 'real or not' is where it was made. Only made by BSA-Shirley and ROF Fazakerley. Should be finished with Suncorite too. The "drilled and tapped for a scope base" drops its value by half. Surplus Rifles lists the No. 5 under "Enfield-Enfield Savage Rifles". https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kh9guf4wv...MKJajVKra?dl=0 __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 8, 2016, 12:38 PM	#6
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,653	Here are a few pics.

June 8, 2016, 12:40 PM	#7
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,653

June 8, 2016, 01:26 PM	#9
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	You've got a nice one. Do replace that sight with the original ladder 800-yard ladder sight, and fill the scope holes and touch up the finish there.

June 8, 2016, 09:51 PM	#11
shuvelrider Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2011 Location: West Coast of Michigan Posts: 132	Very nice! Your right, those D&T holes scream out wanting to be filled in. Perhaps some plug screws with some loctite.

June 8, 2016, 10:01 PM	#12
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,653	I had thought about putting some plug screws in and filing them flat, then some cold blue or something. But I think you would still see them. I have talked to a local smith amd he says he can fix it. But he never elaborated how.

June 9, 2016, 05:07 PM	#13
shuvelrider Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2011 Location: West Coast of Michigan Posts: 132	I would use the plug screws and call it good, put them in flush and anchor with loctite. File work will highlight bare metal that would need to be finished over, which means more work. I have heard of gunsmiths who will weld the holes and refinish, but that will get pricey. As someone stated and as you know already, the collector value has been reduced simply by the presence of those holes--------if you ever sell it to a collector. I suggest plug the holes as mentioned, for the cheapest solution, and then shoot that thing and enjoy it.

June 9, 2016, 09:46 PM	#15
shuvelrider Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2011 Location: West Coast of Michigan Posts: 132	My JC at the bottom, same maker as yours but dated 1945. Try Numerich Arms for the 800 yard ladder site.

June 10, 2016, 09:24 PM	#16
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	1947 #5 Jungle Carbines were issued and used, but a number of them were never issued and were sold in brand new condition in the 1960's. These were bought from the British and imported by Interarms. I've seen several of these unissued carbines and many of them had "S" marked Short stocks. Apparently, as the #5 was being discontinued there was no need for the Short stock models for British troops so they were never used.