Help with Bolt Rifle Die Set

[Savage_The_Barbarian]

Been awhile since I have been here. Sorry for the long post. Moderating another forum takes my spare time but I come here when I need sage advice on reloading and reloading supplies including dies which this is about.

Have been reloading for many years off and on but my main concern now is loading for a long range bolt action rifle. The rifle is an FN A5M XP 20" fluted chromed lined 1:10 RH twist sitting under a Vortex Viper PST FFP 6-24X50 MBR-1 mrad. I also have a Remington AAC SD 700 and a SCAR17. I may decide to see how far I can get with the SCAR17 but that will come later. So I need some help with a selection of dies for the FN bolt and Remington bolt, which I think should be the same, but you never know because of the chambering.

Anyways, on the SCAR17 gas gun, I am using my Hornandy LnL progressive and some Lyman Delux 3 die w/carbide button and a Lee Factory Taper Crimp die.

On the other two, I plan to use my RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme single stage press to do the honors with. I have all the blah blah blah stuff that goes with the reloading including the Hornady comparator but I do not have the head-space gauge as up until now, I did not need it and am still not convinced that I do need it. But I do have the AOL gauge set so I know the dimensions for bullet seating.

This issue I am now facing is which die set to utilize because I do plan on trying to reach out to 1000 yards (if not more) and I realize that 80% of this is shooter related, 10% is ammo construction, 8% is equipment and the rest is just things like weather and blind luck. I want to use fire formed brass for both platforms. I am of the belief that if you are selective in your brass that you can achieve great outcomes and not have to use brass that cost $2.50 each piece if not more. So I weigh, don't mix, and use same run (or year) brass. I have not fired either tof the bolt guns so I have no measurements that I can provide on fire formed brass for these guns.

So because I want to use fire formed brass, I am looking at dies that will neck size, a seating die that will do the job and seat properly, and a crimp die if necessary. So people say Redding are one of the best, Forsters come around RCBS, then the rest of them follow. I see that Redding has some new "Compitition" and "National Match" and this and that and it is all confusing because they talk about S and A, B, C, D, I grade and all sort of other stuff that just confuses everyone who does not do 3 years of research. There is also the small base and bushings and full length sizing which I may or may not need and whether the Competition with the micrometers are really necessary for obtaining that near perfect round that can be repeated time and time again.

So help....what do I need for a quality die set for use to meet my needs? While I do not have a budget per say, I find it hard to swallow spending $300 on a set of dies, but will if it is warranted. And do I need a head-space gauge and which should I get, RCBS, Hornady, other??? Ideally, I guess that I should look at a neck sizing die, a bullet seating die, and crimp die (if necessary) and a FL sizing die for first fire formed brass loadings. I can use the Lyman for that I guess. I have some bi-metal .308 rounds but they will never see my bolt guns so unless I load up some or buy some match grade ammo, I have no first time fired formed from my bolt guns. What about a concentricity setup for run out measurements?

Components are Sierra match grade projectiles 175gr 2275C with Win, CBC or LC brass (weighed, sized, trimmed to specs and weighed again), Federal 210M primers and IMR 4064 or Ramshot Tac or X-Terminator powders. I have some 147gr ball projectiles as well. Should I even think about crimping and if so, taper or what?

I know, lots of questions but thanks for any assistance. New to LR shooting but an old hand at mid range shooting (<400meters) and mid level reloader. Largest cal I have loaded is .308 for my 300 Savage 99. Pistol all the way from 5.7X28 to .45 cal. I do re-load the dreaded 5.7X28mm and have been doing it for years without mishap because I Pay Attention to Detail and track spent cases very well.

[4runnerman]

I use Redding and Forester, don't think you can go wrong with either one. For my F Class rifle I did send 5 rounds and my Die set back to redding and for $10.00 the will custom hone your die to your chamber. Also- Full Length sizing is still more Accurate then neck sizing is. For your brass I would suggest Lapua Brass.
Pay more up front, but you get more reloads out of it and the quality is much better. Crimping has also been shown to reduce accuracy and is never needed on a bolt rifle. Some other stuff I have picked p along the way. The number 1 thing that throws your neck out of whack is the expander ball being pulled back out of the neck. Now while it is a lot more work and I only do it on my match ammo, after you deprime, take the expander/decapper out of die and run them through again. This will give you the same neck tension on all cases. It also aids in much more straight necks to the bore. This is a simple test, Take 3 or 4 cases done with expander ball in, and 3 or 4 cases redone with out expander ball, Line them up on a table and roll them. Watch the necks. You will see the necks will have zero wobble in them.

[tobnpr]

This issue I am now facing is which die set to utilize because I do plan on trying to reach out to 1000 yards (if not more) and I realize that 80% of this is shooter related, 10% is ammo construction, 8% is equipment and the rest is just things like weather and blind luck.

Oh....so, so wrong, grasshopper...
"Ammo construction" is MUCH more than 10% of this game... I won't even try to assign a percentage, but development, and implementation, of a CONSISTENT load is critical to hitting "smallish" (2-3 minute) targets at 1000 yards.

You can bang steel, or whatever, at 600 yards with any capable 1000 yard chambering, and small variations in velocity will not greatly affect your ability to hit the target.

It's been a long day and I'm not inclined to plug the numbers- but go ahead and check to see how much a difference of 75 fps in MV is going to affect that bullet's drift and drop at 1000. Even with a flat-shooting, throat burning monster it's going to make a difference. Take a typical .308, even more so.
And, better make it a heavy, high BC one at that...

You need to develop a load with not only the accuracy/velocity trade-off (usually) maximized- but also with minimal standard deviation.

"The rest", meaning the 2% you assigned to "weather and bad luck" is also way off-base. While we all need luck, what you really need is lack of wind- or at least, a consistent wind- and the ability to dope it.

ALL of these- shooter, stick, and ammunition- are equally important. The best marksman in the world can't make an inaccurate rifle shoot, nor an accurate rifle with inaccurate ammo at 1000 yards. Doping the wind, well- you'll find out all about that

[Savage_The_Barbarian]

It was just "guesstimates" to throw out there and really had no intrinsic value to the conversation. I know that the percentages are off but in terms of not using numbers, the shooter is the biggest obstacle. You can have everything else perfect but if the shooter can not hit the broad side of a barn, then everything else for that particular shooter is a waste.

I know the deviations and what the smallest breeze can do to the trajectory, and the smallest spread can do to projectiles flying consistently.

It was just an ad hoc statement and I guess I should have clarified that. However the main issue remains, dies, dies, dies..... I knew someone would say brass and there is probably good reason for that but I have found that using range brass at times is just as good as using Lapau brass, if you take the time and effort to cull the differences in the brass. Like a foundation in a house, hose the foundation and the entire house will fall. Hose the brass prep, and the entire round is suspect. Alloy construction, yield points, and a host of other things. Just no room nor inclination to bore the membership of the minor details at this time.

But still the issue remains, dies, dies, dies.

I am sure someone else will chime in on powder selection as well, and that is all good information because I am new to this and want to learn, and THAT is the biggest thing about all this. The willingness to learn and grow and I had found out many years ago that this is the "fun" part, just as much fun as hitting the steel plate at 1000 yards.....

So yes, I agree, the percentages are off because there are way too many variables that are constantly shifting to even come close to accuracy on this.

[4runnerman]

Savage- Most of what you say is good, I think the point tobnpr is trying to make is once you move to 1000 yards it becomes a different story, I shoot my 6MMBR out to 1400 yards. I can tell you, Brass makes a HUGE difference. Heck at 1000 yards and beyond the way you comb your hair is going to make a difference.
What I can tell you is going from 400 meters to 1000 yards is like going from 25 yards to 400 yards. Your bullet drop will totally be astounding. 200 to 300 inches or more depending on your zero. things that don't matter at 300 yards are a killer at 1000. Loading is by far your number one priority. No numbers in front of me but plug it in with just a 15 to 20 FPS deviation and see what I mean. On the flip side-- It will be the most fun thing you have ever done.

[Savage_The_Barbarian]

Thanks for that. I knew he was kidding. I guess I should use more smileys

Yup, I know that brass is a big issue. I have read for years that people have success with the use of all sorts of brass and the Lapau is the number one brass for selection. Yet the M118LR is Lake City. The Israeli use IMI. Germans use something else, etc, etc, etc.

Many people use Win brass and are happy with that.

The brass is just another variable that has to be worked with, just like bullet selection, powder selection, primer selection and I have loaded long enough to know that any one of these can cause issues that will need to be corrected.

I am not opposed to buying Lapau but my primary concern right now is dies. A great set of quality dies that will do the job, and like you said, not at 400 yards but at 1000 yards.. New rifle, new scope, I have lots of work to do before I even get to 100 yards, let alone 1000 yards.

I am not trying to be obstinate or anything, and I will take all advice and utilize it because I know that I will need help and I know that you are trying to help me and I thank all of you for that.

[4runnerman]

Savage- Back to your question- As I said before, Both Dies are very good. You will be haapy with either or.

[tobnpr]

I think the point tobnpr is trying to make is once you move to 1000 yards it becomes a different story,

Thanks- that was exactly my point.
I've stated here before- that I can hit a ten inch plate at 600 nearly every shot- as quick as I can run the bolt...it's child's play (as it is for many shooters, nothing special here).

But 1000 yards, it's like being in a different world- and hits become very elusive for me, partially due to the geography of where we shoot- but still very doable. I still have a lot of work to do...

It's fascinating- and frustrating sometimes as well- when you can spot your own hits (long flight time makes it possible)- and end up with wildly varying points of impact when you swear you just made the necessary correction. Wind, wind, wind...

I've just purchased components for a .338 LM- and went with a Redding Type S FL bushing die (I FL size, every time) and RCBS micrometer seating die.

Neck sizing vs full length is always hotly debated. Even with neck sizing only- you will eventually still need to FL size- and I've found that by not oversizing I have no issues with brass life.

Others may have different choices, but I use the Hornady OAL gauge and bullet comparator to determine/experiment with bullet jump and eventually finalize a loaded round comparator length.

[Mobuck]

"The rest", meaning the 2% you assigned to "weather and bad luck" is also way off-base. While we all need luck, what you really need is lack of wind- or at least, a consistent wind- and the ability to dope it.

With the current crop of rifles, rangefinders, and bullet drop computer programs, wind doping is the MOST difficult factor to accommodate.
Personally, I think you're beating your head against a wall expecting to shoot 1000 yards using a .308 factory rifle with a 20" barrel.

[AllenJ]

I use RCBS and Forester FL dies for 308 Winchester and I'm happy with both. I do not remove the expander ball either as I have measured the cases after sizing and there is no run-out. As much as I've read on that I think I got lucky there. I'm a firm believer that you are better off having a sizing die for each rifle, this way once adjusted it can be locked down and never have to change. I bought a RCBS Precision Mic but you can measure using a spent pistol case and get the needed dimensions to properly adjust the die.

[Savage_The_Barbarian]

@ 4runner: Thanks for that. I am looking hard at them. Why the small base? Is that not what the "S" is for on the Reddings?

@ MobUck: I know that it is not optimal but it is achievable. I looked at different platforms and larger caliber and I may eventually go to a .338 but I want to "play" with this set up for awhile and see if I can push it. I am well aware that I may fail miserably but that in itself is part of the learning process and this setup may only be good for 800 or less. Only time and effort will tell.

@ AllenJ: See your point. I am still hesitant about FL sizing each time, especially if it is not necessary. I have never used FF brass before and I want to try and see if there is a mark difference.

Decided to get some Lapau brass as it is on sale right now. Still looking at the dies though and wonder if these Redding Compitition Bushings are really worth the price considering there are lesser cost that seem to do just as well. Guess you get to pay lots more for the "micrometer".

Can someone fill me in on why the small base dies and if indeed the Redding "S" does mean small base?

[gwpercle]

Ever hear of CH4D ? Give those nice people a call and they will take care of your needs.
I have a rifle that has an odd chamber, slightly out of spec. After disscusing my problem with Dave , was told to send in 3 fired cases from my rifle and TA-DAH he sent me back a set of dies that perfectly resized the case so I could more than 3 reloadings before the case started showing signs of seperation.. The fit was just right. If dave can't fix you up ....nobody can. CH4D check em out.
Gary

[Savage_The_Barbarian]

Gary: No I have not. But I will definitely check them out. Thanks.

[4runnerman]

Savage- A small base sizing die is only needed if you have a very tight chamber,
Most times they are not needed. All they do is size a little farther down the case. The full length Sizing does not really damage your brass as most think when you have the Die set right. All you are really doing is bumpinng the shoulder back .002.

Allen- The main purpose of removing the expander ball is not for run out( though it does help). It is to ensure your necks are uniform, By that I mean- Watch for this next time you seat bullets, Every now and then , sometimes a lot you find the amount of pressure you put on the handle to seat bullets is not always the same?. Some slip easy some a little easier. Some go in a little harder. This is a by product of 2 things. Brass needs annealing and the expander ball being pulled out of neck which pulls the neck back up. When you have that situation ( And I know everyone does) those 2 bullets are not going to shoot the same. Your MV is going to be more erratic.
Which is going to affect your POI. Now at 300 yards maybe not to much, but at 1000 or 1400 it is going to be a big deal. Most times I can keep my deviation to 8 to 10 FPS. I also run a case neck brush down all cases before I load. When I go to a Match-I want every little bit of edge I can muster.

[Savage_The_Barbarian]

I should have worded that a litter better. Is there any particular reason that I should consider a small base die instead of a regular die for this particular firearm?

[4runnerman]

Savage- That is a question I can't answer. Only your chamber can. If you don't need one there is no reason to get one,but on the other hand even if you don't need one there is nothing wrong with using one all the time. What would be great would be if someone you know has the die you need, Have him size one and see if it chamber easy or if it sticks the last 1/4 inch when you chamber it.

[Savage_The_Barbarian]

Thanks. I knew that it was chamber specific, I just had not heard of any issues with anyone with an FN SPR chambered in .308 ever having an issue with needing a small base die.

It is my understanding that the small base works the brass more than a regular die, especially mil brass because of the thickness of the base wall. I have never used a small base die so am wondering if this is really an issue or just more internet banter.

[4runnerman]

Savage- I have 2 Small Base die's. One for 6MBR and one for my match 308.
They do not work the brass any more that a standard die. The simple size the brass down farther. Not in size, but farther down the base. Closer to the base.
When you size a case in a FL die it only sizes down about 1/4 inch from the base. The rest of the case down it does not really size. When you have a tight chamber that small deviation will make the bolt hard to close. Example-My 6BR.
A full length die will size 80% of the case fine. But next to the base it is .473.
That will not fit in my chamber. My small base die sizes the base down to .471.
That .002 will cause your bolt to close hard. It does not hurt the rifle in any way at all, it's just a pain in the backside to chamber and eject.

[Savage_The_Barbarian]

Thank you. Again, that is what I though and I was concerned that a small base die might work NATO brass more than necessary because of the thickness of the walls. But seeing as I will be using this die set exclusively for my bolt guns, it seems beneficial to get the die set with the small base, or just add a small base die if needed.

I'll have to look at the options. Again, thanks for this information. No matter how much I think I know, I know that there is tons more room to learn.

[tobnpr]

I have no idea what the "S" stands for with the Redding bushing dies...but it's not "small base".
Their neck size-only bushing dies are also called "Type S".

[Savage_The_Barbarian]

I wondered about that. Redding has some weird alphabet soup naming for the dies. And it changes each year based on sales so one year the A dies might be next years C dies.

I guess if you use Redding dies exclusively, you get to know this stuff but until now, the only Redding stuff I have are some 45ACP & AR "A" dies and a Titanium Carbide GR-x Push Through die.

Thank you for that information.

[4runnerman]

Savage- The thickness of NATO brass is inside not outside. Outside dimensions are still the same.

[Savage_The_Barbarian]

I understand that the outside of the case dimensions are almost identical across the board per given caliber to meet SAAMI specs for chambers. What I meant is that the thickness at the base of NATO brass gets worked utilizing small base dies whereas the normal resizing dies do not work that part of the brass. The entirety of the brass under pressure of the dies gets worked, not just the "outside" of the brass, but the "inside" of the brass as well, as it flows while being resized.

So does the small base die used on NATO brass due to the extra thickness at the base of the brass cause early failure at the base?

I suspect that failure will occur at the case shoulder and neck prior to case failure any place else unless overpressure events happen. I'm just concerned, because I do not know, whether a small base die is inherently bad for use on NATO brass.

[4runnerman]

basically- Once you size wih a small base it is not different then a regular die from there out.