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Old March 21, 2018, 11:14 AM   #1
Wendyj
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Flaring die and cast bullet size

I just got an older Marlin in 30-30. I was advised to go 311 on bullet size due to Marlins rifling. I just ordered a batch of 311 bullets 160 grain from Missouri bullet company at their recommendation. I am planning on the Lee Universal flaring die since this is the only bullet at the time I will be flaring the neck on. Is Missouri correct in the 311 size bullet in cast? Hardness is 18 if I am not mistaken. Missouri whitetail#4 was what they suggested.
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Old March 21, 2018, 11:28 AM   #2
ligonierbill
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I'm loading Missouri #1 Whitetail 0.309 165 gr RNFP for a newer M94 Winchester. These are Brinell 18. They work well. If Missouri is recommending the #4 0.311 for your rifle, go with it as see how they do. How old is your Marlin?
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Old March 21, 2018, 11:32 AM   #3
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Quote:
Is Missouri correct in the 311 size bullet in cast?
Well, you have them now so I would just shoot them unless you could change your order. I would suggest you slug your barrel if you intend to shoot cast. Order .001 over the diameter of the slug.
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Old March 21, 2018, 11:52 AM   #4
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Old March 21, 2018, 12:07 PM   #5
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When using the Lee flare die, set it so the bottom edge of the bullet juuuuuust clears the case mouth edge --- no more.

Since it's tube fed -- and with the die screwed off case mouth contact by a full turn......
- Set the seating stem to seat the bullet at/near the top of the crimp groove
- Back off the seating stem a couple of turns
- Then screw the die down to set your crimp into the groove as you desire (1/2-3/2 turn past contact).
- Screw down the seat stem to meet the bullet -- and lock the lock ring,

You can now seat; de-flare; and crimp in one step from that point on.


.

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Old March 21, 2018, 12:23 PM   #6
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Thanks mehavey!! I watched a few videos of it but not a lot of content. 5whiskey, I am stuck with them but I used their advise for microgroove rifling. I only ordered 250 which was lowest batch just to try. If they don't work I am not out a whole lot. Shipping would have been better if I knew what the rifle liked. It doesn't like Speer 150 grain bullets so I am going to try cast instead. I'm using about 28-28.8grains of imr 3031 with these. Will see what it likes and go from there.
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Old March 21, 2018, 01:49 PM   #7
Don Fischer
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Be carefull flaring. You do it to much and your gonna start splitting neck's. Voice of experience! Little bit and try it. It'll be enough when the bullet barely sit's inside the neck.
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Old March 21, 2018, 02:10 PM   #8
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Bottle necked rifle cartridges do not get flared. The case mouth chamfer replaces that. Even with an over sized cast bullet.
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Old March 21, 2018, 02:18 PM   #9
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I like the Lyman M die. You may have to have one of the type made to order by Buffalo Arms if you have an odd size bullet/barrel combination.

I am shooting .411" bullets in my Browning BPCR .40-65 with nominal .408" groove diameter Badger barrel. (NOT "bore diameter" dammit.)
A Standard Internet Recommended .409" bullet is inaccurate and a .410" is still not as good as .411". I figure it is doing best with bullets at throat diameter, which is said to be a bit large in these guns. As P.O. Ackley said, by the time it has traveled its own length in the rifling it blamed well FITS.
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Old March 21, 2018, 02:33 PM   #10
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Bottle neck rifle cartridges do get flared for cast bullets if you are opposed to chamferring as I am. I also have to flare .22 Savage Hi-Power cases with jacketed bullets to keep from collapsing the case necks.
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Old March 21, 2018, 02:53 PM   #11
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I use a Lee Universal Case Expanding Die when loading cast bullets for my 30-30. It seemed to work fine when adjusted just enough to get the bullet started. If you see a bit of lead shavings when seating bullets you probably want a little more flare.

As already mentioned the Lyman M die is excellent, but they are matched to the bullet diameter.
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Old March 21, 2018, 03:04 PM   #12
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Right. One time I seated a moly-coated bullet in a newly chamfered case, then had to pull it. To my surprise, the sides of the bullet had all the moly scraped clean off. Fresh chamfers have sharp edges and if you don't want to give your lead bullets a shave, you would have to burnish them down to dull first. Flaring will expose the bullet to smoother inside neck brass that doesn't shave it.

I'm with Jim on the M die type flare for loading a rifle. The reason is the step it puts in the case mouth lets the bullet sit straight upright, as shown below. When the bullet is set squarely upright in that step, the seating ram starts in straight, too, resulting in measurable less cartridge runout. You can also tell is it more straight looking at cartridges with a neck long enough that there is a slight bulge where the bullet base meets the resized diameter of the neck. With a straight seated bullet, the slight bulge goes evenly all around the case if the neck wall is also even in thickness, where it is often much less even or sometimes all on one side of the neck if you start with a funnel-shaped flare. In a pistol shooting jacketed bullets, it,s hard to see any difference on paper, but with a rifle that reduction in runout shrinks groups.

The shallow microgrooves are fine with cast bullets as long as they go all the way to the root, which is why a fat bullet was recommended. However, I've seen that go too far, too. You will probably have to shoot groups with some that are .310" and .312" before you can be sure you zeroed in on the best choice. If you slug the bore, for my Marlin (deep Ballard rifling) 0.002" over groove diameter shoots best, but YMMV, so be prepared to experiment.

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Old March 21, 2018, 03:11 PM   #13
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I’m going to ask stupid question. Can the 311 do any damage to rifle or myself. Maybe not a stupid question.
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Old March 21, 2018, 03:30 PM   #14
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2xNo
(not a stupid question; and not with a cast bullet of that dimension)
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Old March 21, 2018, 03:36 PM   #15
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.311 cast bullet is appropriate for a .30-30.
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Old March 21, 2018, 03:37 PM   #16
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Wendy, if you look at the SAAMI specs, even copper jacketed bullets are allowed to go 0.001" over. The throat can swage them down even more than that, but pressure starts to rise. With the much softer lead bullets you usually can widen your bullets until you can't chamber a round and they still don't cause a problem. For one thing, you're normally driving them with lower pressures so that you would have to do more than fatten the bullet for before they caused a hazard.

I just mentioned in another post that when the industry decided to change .45 Colt barrels over from 0.454" to 0.451", the industry wanted older bullet molds and bullets to continue to work, so they made the chambers for a long time to accommodate the old ones even though the barrel was now narrower. Cylinder throats up at .456" or so were not uncommon for the old lead, and yet those fat bullets went through the newer 0.451" groove barrels just fine.
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Old March 21, 2018, 03:54 PM   #17
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Seems you are about as likely to run into a .450" cylinder throat on an old .45 Long Colt. Ruger turned out a bunch of modern revolvers with undersize cylinder throats, there was one shop that did little else but ream them to groove (NOT bore, dammit.) diameter plus a bit.

Quote:
If you slug the bore, for my Marlin (deep Ballard rifling) 0.002" over groove diameter shoots best,
I know what Marlin advertises, but I have not been able to find an example or picture of an original Ballard barrel. I think it is just a term of art meaning "not Microgroove."
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Old March 21, 2018, 03:58 PM   #18
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I appreciate all the information. Now to find some loads and a flaring die.the Lyman M die just shows 308 caliber but not how far it expands. This is new to me as I only expand pistol bullet cases. Never a bottle neck.
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Old March 21, 2018, 06:31 PM   #19
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Yer gonna hate me... but if you have any RCBS pistol dies, see if you can find a 32-20 expander.
It will expand/flare in one step to perfectly fit the dimensions of 0.311 cast.
(It's what I use on my Krag rounds.... also sized 0.311)
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Old March 21, 2018, 07:08 PM   #20
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Wendyj,

The guys are right in recommending the Lyman Type M Expander Die. Get the one for the .30 Carbine that they sell. Why? Because you can use it for any .30 caliber cartridge from as short as the .30 Carbine, all the way up to the .30-06 simply by adjusting the height of the die.

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Old March 21, 2018, 07:55 PM   #21
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Wendy:
The .30 caliber M die will flare as little or as much as neded. There are two sizes as per length of the die, longer one for mag length cases and shorter one for the shorter length cases. The one for .30-30 will be the same as .308, .30 carbine, and numerous others. This can be verified if you have the Midway catalog that has the M dies listed per caliber. But just for feeling confident, get the one indicated for .30-30.
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Old March 22, 2018, 08:00 AM   #22
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This is the one on Amazon

Lyman Neck Expanding "M-Inch"die 30-30 Winchester 300 Savage (7.62 X 39-m
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Old March 22, 2018, 10:53 AM   #23
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Yes, but understand that while the flare part will go to any diameter, the step part has to be wide enough to accommodate the full bullet diameter to get the advantages of the straight seating. This is why Jim Watson said you may have to get Buffalo Arms to make one to suit your bullet diameter, or you can use the .32 mentioned by Mehavey. That gives me another idea, though. Just a minute while I head to the basement to make a measurement…

(Imagine elevator music of your choice here}

…OK. I'm back. I apologize for the wait.

What I have downstairs is a Lyman Multi-expander, a powder-through expander die for pistol cartridges. It costs more than the others because it comes with adapters for all common pistol chamberings, including .32 Auto, which uses the same bullet as the 32-20 rifle cartridge. The adapters are short, threaded things and there are two extensions provided that they may be screwed into, one being longer for reaching down into short cases and one being shorter for tall cases. So, I screwed the Multi-die into my Lee Classic Cast press to see if that short extension was short enough for a 30-30 case. It was not short enough for a .30-06, which, when I ran it up all the way, needed the die threads completely outside the press, but with a .308" case, which is just a hair longer than you 30-30 case, it worked great and left me with plenty of thread engagement. I stuck a 0.311" pin gauge in and it sat square and straight upright in the case mouth. Just what you need. However, rather than expend $34 on the Multi-expander, it looks like you can buy a Lyman M die for 32-20 for $20.25 (these are Midsouth prices; they are out of stock but Midway has them for $2 more) and that should work.

Call Lyman to verify the 32-20 die is right for your bullet diameter. They have several numbers:

800-225-9626
800-423-9704
860-632-2020

But I think that will work for you. The die threads may have to be screwed up a little higher in the press for the 30-30 case, but not too high for it to work.
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Old March 22, 2018, 01:52 PM   #24
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Just a minute while I head to the basement to make a measurement…

(Imagine elevator music of your choice here}

…OK. I'm back. I apologize for the wait.
Worth reading just for the humor. Thanks
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Old March 22, 2018, 02:25 PM   #25
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Marlin's Micro Groove rifling needs the .311 size. Some of the older Winchester model
94's with worn throats and barrels can require them also.
Newer Winchester 94's can get by .309 diameter.
A .311 cast lead bullet will not damage a .308 dia. barrel but might not chamber easily in a tight throated rifle.
Try them and see is the only way .

The Lee universal neck expanding tool will work just fine , I've used one with 30-30 and cast bullets for 10 years .... it flares the neck and the bullet can be started...gas check bullets are no problem at all.
Gary
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