Problem, new gun - Page 2

Don P · March 19, 2018, 06:46 AM

Quote:

The 1st gun is a Springfield XD Mod2 this 2nd gun is an older Tanfoglio Witness 45acp full size all metal frame and as far as I know it has the original barre

Tanfoglio's are known for having tight chambers. make your rounds to fit the Tanfoglios and all should be good with the XD

jetinteriorguy · March 19, 2018, 06:55 AM

Another thought. Are you seating and crimping in separate steps? If not, give it a try.

Chainsaw. · March 19, 2018, 08:09 AM

Will just a sized case pass the plunk test?

tranders · March 19, 2018, 09:36 AM

Had a similar problem with a Sig 1911. From the factory no throat or lead in barrel. Made loading SWC very difficult and rounds would not pass plunk test.
Sent barrel to gunsmith to have a throat cut in barrel and problem disappeared.

The Lee FCD will also work,but make sure you are not swaging down bullet diameter.

kmw1954 · March 19, 2018, 10:22 AM

Will just a sized case pass the plunk test?

Post 5, 15 and 21.

No I am not crimping with a separate die, step. Then I never had a problem where I found it necessary before this.

**Unclenick** · March 19, 2018, 01:31 PM

Tranders makes a good point. Throating reamers for .45 Auto were made for target shooters to funnel lead SWC's a little better into the rifling, but in the day of practical shooting they seem to have been forgotten. It can still be a good thing to try. But a light turn with a standard chamber reamer would be where I would start.

kmw1954 · March 19, 2018, 02:43 PM

Unclenick, ran a brush thru the chamber again this morning and then the Bore Snake followed by doubled up clean patches. Patches came out a little dirty but not what I would call dirty. They looked like I wiped them down with Hopp's oil. Then turned the seating die down one more 1/8 turn and everything is dropping nicely now.

The guy I bought this gun from told me that it hasn't been shot in quite a while, the reason he was selling it.

So I'm beginning to think that a combination of a number of things brought all this about.

1. The gun barrel being tight and perhaps a little dirty with varnished up oil
2. The dies are new also. I don't think I have 250 rounds loaded on them yet. And yes they were cleaned before I started using them.
3. Sometimes one just needs to back up and start over from the beginning.

Real Gun · March 19, 2018, 07:28 PM

I had the same sort of symptoms with 38 Special. It was suggested to me that the bullets were canted and that I should try the Hornady seater with sliding sleeve to align the bullets. Cleared it right up. So far though I only seat with the Hornady and still use a cowboy die to roll crimp the .358 bullet. I also used a tighter sizing die but am not sure of its effect.

kmw1954 · March 28, 2018, 10:48 PM

Latest update for all.

Finally got to the range and was able to fire the rounds in both guns. All rounds fed, cycled and went boom in the Witness. There was one set of loads that wouldn't cycle reliably in the XD though they did in the Witness.

In total we shot 4 loads using the XRTEME 200gr RN and two powders, 2 loads each of the Berry's 185gr Flat point and 2 loads each of the 200gr Berry's Flat Point. Again the powder tests were done using AA#5 and Ramshot Silhouette. After I use up this jar of AA#5 I believe I'm going to try some AA#2 for the 45, 9mm and my 380.

The one thing I've learned with these 45 loads in these two guns is that they need to be loaded much shorter than suggested so the next loads I am also going to try and reduce the charge slightly.

Thanks for following along and for all the suggestions.

**Unclenick** · March 30, 2018, 09:45 AM

Be careful as you go to faster powders that seating too deeply can raise pressure excessively. It depends on whether or not the bullet was unseated and pushed into the throat by the primer before the powder pressure built up much.

I have found best accuracy with lead or other soft bullets and the lowest metal fouling happens when you seat them to jam the throat slightly, gauged as shown below. However, if they won't feed with that gaging, they are not being useful. Getting a reliability package from a reputable gunsmith is another way to go for feed issues.

kmw1954 · March 30, 2018, 06:06 PM

I was just chatting with a member on another forum only to find out he is also a moderator on one of the CZ forums to which he has told me that this is a common occurrence with CZ and Tanfoglio pistols because they are notorious for having tight chambers and short throats. He is telling me that with his guns he has to seat Flat Point and SWC so that the shoulder is barely exposed.

I also mentioned shortening the OAL AND reducing the powder charge at the same time to allow for the shorter case capacity. So when I make the change to the faster powder I will also take into consideration the length and reduce the starting charge as well.

Don P · April 2, 2018, 07:45 AM

I had to respond again after re-reading the replies. Not once unless I missed it has the OP told us what the OAL is on his rounds??????

Real Gun · April 2, 2018, 09:18 AM

Quote:

The bullets used are XTREME RN and Berry's Flat Point. The XTREME seem to be the worst of the 2. Factory rounds fall right in and right out.

I would make sure the seating stem style matches the ogive shape.

kmw1954 · April 2, 2018, 09:45 AM

Don P, apologies on the oversight.

With the RN bullet the original length was 1.270" and am now down to 1.260" and all is well now. Also because of this shortening I also reduced the powder charge from 8.2gr of AA#5 down to 7.9gr and these are firing and completely cycling both of these guns. The Flat Point bullets are down to 1.185"

I also just loaded up another 120 of these RN using the odds n ends brass I had after sorting headstamps.

While doing this I came upon 4 headstamps that would not seat in the Witness and they were; MAXXtech, GECO, A 15 and one other that I don't recall other than after trying 2 I threw them in the recycle can. Though they would not seat in the Witness they did drop right into the XD and dropped right out when turned over. Also measuring these after loading they are right on the margin of being over sized in diameter.

March 19, 2018, 08:09 AM	#28
Chainsaw. Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2015 Location: Issaquah WA. Its a dry rain. Posts: 1,774	Will just a sized case pass the plunk test? __________________ Just shoot the damn thing.

March 19, 2018, 01:31 PM	#31
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	Tranders makes a good point. Throating reamers for .45 Auto were made for target shooters to funnel lead SWC's a little better into the rifling, but in the day of practical shooting they seem to have been forgotten. It can still be a good thing to try. But a light turn with a standard chamber reamer would be where I would start. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 19, 2018, 07:28 PM	#33
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	I had the same sort of symptoms with 38 Special. It was suggested to me that the bullets were canted and that I should try the Hornady seater with sliding sleeve to align the bullets. Cleared it right up. So far though I only seat with the Hornady and still use a cowboy die to roll crimp the .358 bullet. I also used a tighter sizing die but am not sure of its effect. __________________ Not an expert, just a reporter.

March 30, 2018, 09:45 AM	#35
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	Be careful as you go to faster powders that seating too deeply can raise pressure excessively. It depends on whether or not the bullet was unseated and pushed into the throat by the primer before the powder pressure built up much. I have found best accuracy with lead or other soft bullets and the lowest metal fouling happens when you seat them to jam the throat slightly, gauged as shown below. However, if they won't feed with that gaging, they are not being useful. Getting a reliability package from a reputable gunsmith is another way to go for feed issues. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 2, 2018, 07:45 AM	#37
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	I had to respond again after re-reading the replies. Not once unless I missed it has the OP told us what the OAL is on his rounds?????? __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

March 19, 2018, 06:55 AM	#27
jetinteriorguy Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Posts: 3,168	Another thought. Are you seating and crimping in separate steps? If not, give it a try.

March 19, 2018, 09:36 AM	#29
tranders Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 233	Had a similar problem with a Sig 1911. From the factory no throat or lead in barrel. Made loading SWC very difficult and rounds would not pass plunk test. Sent barrel to gunsmith to have a throat cut in barrel and problem disappeared. The Lee FCD will also work,but make sure you are not swaging down bullet diameter.

March 19, 2018, 10:22 AM	#30
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	*Will just a sized case pass the plunk test?* Post 5, 15 and 21. No I am not crimping with a separate die, step. Then I never had a problem where I found it necessary before this.

March 19, 2018, 02:43 PM	#32
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	Unclenick, ran a brush thru the chamber again this morning and then the Bore Snake followed by doubled up clean patches. Patches came out a little dirty but not what I would call dirty. They looked like I wiped them down with Hopp's oil. Then turned the seating die down one more 1/8 turn and everything is dropping nicely now. The guy I bought this gun from told me that it hasn't been shot in quite a while, the reason he was selling it. So I'm beginning to think that a combination of a number of things brought all this about. 1. The gun barrel being tight and perhaps a little dirty with varnished up oil 2. The dies are new also. I don't think I have 250 rounds loaded on them yet. And yes they were cleaned before I started using them. 3. Sometimes one just needs to back up and start over from the beginning.

March 28, 2018, 10:48 PM	#34
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	Latest update for all. Finally got to the range and was able to fire the rounds in both guns. All rounds fed, cycled and went boom in the Witness. There was one set of loads that wouldn't cycle reliably in the XD though they did in the Witness. In total we shot 4 loads using the XRTEME 200gr RN and two powders, 2 loads each of the Berry's 185gr Flat point and 2 loads each of the 200gr Berry's Flat Point. Again the powder tests were done using AA#5 and Ramshot Silhouette. After I use up this jar of AA#5 I believe I'm going to try some AA#2 for the 45, 9mm and my 380. The one thing I've learned with these 45 loads in these two guns is that they need to be loaded much shorter than suggested so the next loads I am also going to try and reduce the charge slightly. Thanks for following along and for all the suggestions.

March 30, 2018, 06:06 PM	#36
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	I was just chatting with a member on another forum only to find out he is also a moderator on one of the CZ forums to which he has told me that this is a common occurrence with CZ and Tanfoglio pistols because they are notorious for having tight chambers and short throats. He is telling me that with his guns he has to seat Flat Point and SWC so that the shoulder is barely exposed. I also mentioned shortening the OAL AND reducing the powder charge at the same time to allow for the shorter case capacity. So when I make the change to the faster powder I will also take into consideration the length and reduce the starting charge as well.

April 2, 2018, 09:45 AM	#39
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	Don P, apologies on the oversight. With the RN bullet the original length was 1.270" and am now down to 1.260" and all is well now. Also because of this shortening I also reduced the powder charge from 8.2gr of AA#5 down to 7.9gr and these are firing and completely cycling both of these guns. The Flat Point bullets are down to 1.185" I also just loaded up another 120 of these RN using the odds n ends brass I had after sorting headstamps. While doing this I came upon 4 headstamps that would not seat in the Witness and they were; MAXXtech, GECO, A 15 and one other that I don't recall other than after trying 2 I threw them in the recycle can. Though they would not seat in the Witness they did drop right into the XD and dropped right out when turned over. Also measuring these after loading they are right on the margin of being over sized in diameter.

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