March 8, 2018, 06:15 PM | #26 | |
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I didn't mean for the 303 Savage reference to be included in the statement about the 30-30 being the first smokeless development as is obvious that the 303 Savage wasn't developed before the 30-30. (It was developed in 1894 but first used in the Savage 99.) As to the '94 being a product of the '92's design, that's true. The design of the '92, a scaled down 1886, was taken as a starting point and stretched to allow for the cycling of the longer 30 WCF cartridge. One major change included the floor of the receiver in the '94 drops down with the lever; a change necessitated by the longer cartridge so the actions don't look exactly alike. As to the 30 WCF marking on some Savage barrels. I found that Winchester offered to authorize other manufacturers the limited rights to chamber their rifles in 30 WCF after a royalty was paid, however, the manufacturers quickly moved to name a generic 30-30 cartridge so as to avoid those payments on both the rifles and the ammunition. |
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March 8, 2018, 06:16 PM | #27 |
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"Contrary to what COSteve posted, in the original post, Stressrelief, has an older Savage 99 marked, "30 WCF". Winchester also continued to mark their model 94 barrels, "30 W.C.F.", at least until WWII. I am looking at one right now, #129XXXX, one of the so-called, "war-time", cabines with exactly that marking."
Thank you, Pathfinder. I was pretty sure that that was the case, at least with early Savage rifles. Unfortunately, Doug Murray's book, a wealth of information, is mute on how Savage stamped chambering markings on its rifles. I have seen early Savage 1899s stamped both .30 WCF and .25 WCF (the .25-35), but again, I'm not sure when those markings might have been altered. There's an interesting sidelight in all of this. UMC helped Savage develop is .303 and also sold Savage ammunition that the the company sold under its own name. But, staring around 1900, a conglomerate called the Ammunition Manufacturer's Asscoation -- UMC, Winchester Arms, and the US Cartridge Company -- formed and refused to sell ammunition to Savage, forcing the company begin manufacturing its own ammunition. By about 1905 the company had added .30-30, .25-35, .32-40, and .38-55 rounds to its ammo offerings. Interestingly enough, the 1905 catalog shows them all using that nomenclature, NOT WCF. Regarding how other companies marked their guns chambered for Winchester cartridges... I have a Colt Police Positive Special and an S&W M&P, both in .32-20. The Smith is marked .32 WCF. The Colt is the odd one... It's marked .32-20 WCF. Odd amalgam of markings.
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March 8, 2018, 06:23 PM | #28 |
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"Powders were improving fast."
Oh my God that is an understatement! Early smokeless powder development in the United States was fraught with problems, as it was in Europe. The processes and chemistry were literally being developed with each successive batch of powder, and often the results were less than wonderful. The problems in developing and manufacturing the early smokeless powders is one of the reasons why the .30-30 wasn't introduced commercially until 1895. Often batches of powder would come out of the manufacturing process and begin to degrade almost immediately. There are reports of powders going into the steam dryers and coming out the other side burning. The powders also tended to be unstable as hell. When the US Navy finally gave up on the 6mm Lee Navy rifle, Francis Bannerman purchased them all surplus, along with something like 20 million rounds of ammunition. The guns and ammo had been stored for some time. The guns were fine, but Bannerman's employees found that the ammunition was in various degrees of questionable to REALLY bad condition. The situation was so bad that all of the 6mm Lee Navy ammunition that Bannerman's purchased was loaded onto a barge and dumped into the middle of the Hudson River.
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March 8, 2018, 06:50 PM | #29 |
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All that which came first means nothing really in the big picture. The relevance of the 30-30 cartridge as the greatest or near greatest all time general purpose hunting round is proven and based on the certainty that it has taken more medium game (deer) than any other cartridge and the vast majority of them with a lever gun, the 336 Marlin. And more than a few elk, mule deer, hogs, moose and bear. 3C
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March 8, 2018, 09:37 PM | #30 | ||||
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March 8, 2018, 10:08 PM | #31 | |
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But now magnums rule and velocity is king and the good ol' steady, reliable 30-30 by what ever name you call it doesn't get the respect it deserves. But you can tell by my sig line I like the round and the rifles that shoot it. |
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March 8, 2018, 11:33 PM | #32 | |
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March 9, 2018, 04:40 AM | #33 | |
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As far as the Marlin 336, it's a fine rifle. There have been about 4 million produced, while Winchester produced nearly 8 million 94s.
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March 9, 2018, 08:12 AM | #34 |
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One point of order about the design of the 1886..
After introduction of the 1873, Winchester wanted to next bring out a rifle that would compete in power with the various Sharps and Remington, and other single shots firing large, long cartridges like the .45-70, .50-70 and .50-90. Winchester's designers couldn't come up with a lever-action design that could handle cartridges of that length, so Winchester chambered the gun for a series of bottlenecked cartridges that were shorter, but as powerful, as their single shot rivals. The 1886 was, in part, designed to allow for a lever gun that would chamber the .45-70 Government cartridge, which was at that time quite popular in the civilian area. Browning's design also allowed chambering even longer cases, like the .50-110 Winchester, which had a case length of 2.4 inches.
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March 9, 2018, 10:57 AM | #35 |
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The 1876 Centennial Winchester cartridges were generally of the "express" type with relatively light bullets. The closest they could get to .45-70-405 Govt was the .45-75-350.
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March 9, 2018, 10:38 PM | #36 |
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And the 30 W.C.F. eclipsed them all.
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March 10, 2018, 11:12 AM | #37 |
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I do not think it is a cliché' that the lever guns and 30-30 have taken more deer than any other cartridge, at least in the 20th Century. I know that the 30-06, my favorite the .270 and the .308 have certainly done their share as well. Not sure how one would ever prove that. I was child in the 60s and a baby in the 50s but do recall the grown ups all toting Marlins and the odd Winchester in mostly 30-30 or Springfield O'6. And back when we could ride around with guns in our pickup truck rear window rack, if it was not a shotgun in there it was a Marlin I would see in those racks. But today and certainly over the last several decades, the 30-30 has faded in favor of other cartridges. 3C
Last edited by 3Crows; March 10, 2018 at 01:18 PM. |
March 11, 2018, 09:38 PM | #38 |
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FWIW, the first Marlin levergun chambered in the 30WCF was the Model 1893, upgraded to the 36 and then then the current 336.
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