Is a fast draw the most important skill for deadly force encounters? - Page 3

jmorris · March 3, 2019, 10:24 AM

Get a shot timer and go to the range.

Set the shot timer on delay start and go.

At the buzzer draw and shoot a target. Note the time.

Now draw and aim your pistol at the target and hit the timer again.

You will instantly realize what I was talking about in my last post.

Mike38 · March 3, 2019, 11:59 AM

I'm replying after reading the original post only, to not have my mind swayed at all. I'd say the most important thing is situational awareness. Stay out of a bad situation, and drawing a weapon wouldn't even be necessary. Second most important would be getting that first shot on target. Matters not how fast you can draw, the person with the first hit instantly has the advantage.

stephen426 · March 3, 2019, 12:27 PM

I'm guessing some people have better crystal balls or they choose to live in a bubble. Why bother carrying a gun if your situational awareness can keep you out of trouble?

Situational awareness is just that... AWARENESS. We cannot control what happens IF things do go south, but being aware will certainly give us more time to react. We should still practice drawing our guns (preferably loaded but unchambered for safety) so we have the skill IF we ever need it. While the term quick draw may bring up images of the old westerns, we should take it as a smooth, fast draw that is well practiced.

If your range does not allow for drawing from concealment, I would recommend buying a very good quality airsoft gun that is a very good replica of your carry gun. There are some that have very similar weighting. If airsoft is not available, go with a BB or pellet gun. The advantage of airsoft is that it can be done indoors with minimal risk of damage. I hang a towel behind my target and have it drop into a box.

While we might not ever need to skill, why not learn it and practice it just in case? Isn't that why we carry a gun, even though most of us have never had to shoot anyone, much less draw it?

jar · March 3, 2019, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen426

2. Drawing your weapon - Honestly speaking, how many people practice drawing their gun from concealment on a regular basis (Other than Rangerrich99 - good job by the way). If you don't practice getting your weapon into play and you fumble your draw in a poop hits the fan situation, things probably won't go too well for you. Our practical shooting club stresses that you should shoot what you carry and practice drawing from how you carry.

I like to add slightly to that. Practice presentation beginning with what you normally carry, cell phone, briefcase, computer, handbag, cup of hot coffee, whatever is normally gonna be in your hands. Also practice as part of presentation hip height, belly high and close to your body, chest high and partial extension and full extension. Do the last two one and two handed. Also practice off hand distraction/direction such as hand in stop position, hand pointed away (anywhere other than at you), hand pointed down at the threat's feet (amazing how eyes tend to follow directions).

RaySendero · March 3, 2019, 01:05 PM

Well...My mind is not suave either.
I think the most important thing in self defense is to be prepared and have a gun!
And, It sure won't hurt to be proficient with a fast & accurate draw.

jmorris · March 3, 2019, 03:30 PM

Quote:

I'm guessing some people have better crystal balls or they choose to live in a bubble. Why bother carrying a gun if your situational awareness can keep you out of trouble?

You don’t need a crystal ball to see that a threat is being created, just aware of what is going on around you and don’t be a “deer in the headlights”.

Carrying a firearm keeps you out of trouble as much as steel toe boots keep you from dropping things on your feet.

In short neither helps if you don’t do your part, they just might minimize the damage though.

HiBC · March 3, 2019, 05:55 PM

Quote:

I'm guessing some people have better crystal balls or they choose to live in a bubble. Why bother carrying a gun if your situational awareness can keep you out of trouble?

We are all different,I guess,and live with different perceptions.

All you have to do is drive in traffic. Some of us can see subtle things that tell us a driver is focused on his/her phone. Example? The migrating goose,the "Wingman" who settles into your blind spot ,keeps your car in peripheral vision,and relies on you to be the guide dog. Check your rearview to make sure its safe,then brake hard. See what it does to your wing man. He will usually brake too,then look at you for "Why?'

Some folks see the folks in the merging lane and may move over to give them room.Some folks make eye contact acknowledgement with pedestrians.

And some drivers are just oblivious.

I've worked as a doorman/bouncer in a large venue,(3 floors,seven bars) and I've worked as a school custodian.

Often,I can just sense the electricity that something is going on Its not any "psychic ability",...its just noticing the non verbals,noticing faces,noticing movement in a crowd..

Get off work at midnight and go to a Waffle House. You will notice you are being evaluated . Are you a chump? Can you be worked?

Get a bup of coffee at a 7-11 at 2 AM,sit in your car and drink it without having to drive and spil it on your shirt. Turn on Art Bell radio.

Watch the guy smoking in front of the firewood bundles and playing with his phone. Watch the guy on the bike with the back pack show up and join the guy smoking. Watch them go around the corner. Then bicycle guy leaves.So many scenarios in 7-11 parking lots.The same guy at the firewood gets two more come and go visitors. They may go inside first.

Some folks just saw a drug transaction,some never saw anything but the donut they are stuffing in their face.

Some folks drive along and see deer in the shadow under a tree.

Some folks never see a deer till it ends up in their radiator.

The ones who do not see have no way to comprehend what others mean by "awareness" because they travel through life unaware.How can a blind person comprehend the color "blue". Its in a different reality.

I'm not a Veteran,but if I may,some folks are better suited to being "Point Man" than others..Sure,being able to quickly deliver effective fire IS a key pointman skill,if things have already gone wrong. Early warning might be the most important skill,especially for a LRRP team trying to remain undetected.

Perhaps Billy walks a trail into a clearing about twice a week in the PM.If I notice he spooks the crows from the Cottonwood as he approaches near every time, Oblivious Man will believe I have a crystal ball if I see the crows fly and say "Billy is coming" 5 minutes before Billy walks into the clearing.

I'd say the man who tells his wife "Lets go. I can't quite say why,but lets go."

Has the most important skill. Not much is lost if he is wrong sometimes.

Rangerrich99 · March 3, 2019, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jar

I like to add slightly to that. Practice presentation beginning with what you normally carry, cell phone, briefcase, computer, handbag, cup of hot coffee, whatever is normally gonna be in your hands. Also practice as part of presentation hip height, belly high and close to your body, chest high and partial extension and full extension. Do the last two one and two handed. Also practice off hand distraction/direction such as hand in stop position, hand pointed away (anywhere other than at you), hand pointed down at the threat's feet (amazing how eyes tend to follow directions).

This is a very good idea. One of the classes I took last year had us hold a variety of different objects and then have to run a drill. Things like a bag of groceries, a plastic cup, a piece of wood with a handle cut-out that was supposed to simulate a briefcase or similar.

After the class we usually have a discussion period, and someone suggested that we should've used our cellphones as a prop. We didn't actually run that scenario, but it was opined that most people would be loath to actually drop their phones on the ground and how that would affect a person's ability to draw/shoot/etc.

In a future class we're going to run drills while "holding a dog leash," "someone's/a child's hand," etc. Should be fairly interesting.

5whiskey · March 3, 2019, 11:12 PM

Quote:

We are all different,I guess,and live with different perceptions.

All you have to do is drive in traffic. Some of us can see subtle things that tell us a driver is focused on his/her phone. Example? The migrating goose,the "Wingman" who settles into your blind spot ,keeps your car in peripheral vision,and relies on you to be the guide dog. Check your rearview to make sure its safe,then brake hard. See what it does to your wing man. He will usually brake too,then look at you for "Why?'

Some folks see the folks in the merging lane and may move over to give them room.Some folks make eye contact acknowledgement with pedestrians.

And some drivers are just oblivious.

I've worked as a doorman/bouncer in a large venue,(3 floors,seven bars) and I've worked as a school custodian.

Often,I can just sense the electricity that something is going on Its not any "psychic ability",...its just noticing the non verbals,noticing faces,noticing movement in a crowd..

Get off work at midnight and go to a Waffle House. You will notice you are being evaluated . Are you a chump? Can you be worked?

Get a bup of coffee at a 7-11 at 2 AM,sit in your car and drink it without having to drive and spil it on your shirt. Turn on Art Bell radio.

Watch the guy smoking in front of the firewood bundles and playing with his phone. Watch the guy on the bike with the back pack show up and join the guy smoking. Watch them go around the corner. Then bicycle guy leaves.So many scenarios in 7-11 parking lots.The same guy at the firewood gets two more come and go visitors. They may go inside first.

Some folks just saw a drug transaction,some never saw anything but the donut they are stuffing in their face.

Some folks drive along and see deer in the shadow under a tree.

Some folks never see a deer till it ends up in their radiator.

The ones who do not see have no way to comprehend what others mean by "awareness" because they travel through life unaware.How can a blind person comprehend the color "blue". Its in a different reality.

I'm not a Veteran,but if I may,some folks are better suited to being "Point Man" than others..Sure,being able to quickly deliver effective fire IS a key pointman skill,if things have already gone wrong. Early warning might be the most important skill,especially for a LRRP team trying to remain undetected.

Perhaps Billy walks a trail into a clearing about twice a week in the PM.If I notice he spooks the crows from the Cottonwood as he approaches near every time, Oblivious Man will believe I have a crystal ball if I see the crows fly and say "Billy is coming" 5 minutes before Billy walks into the clearing.

I'd say the man who tells his wife "Lets go. I can't quite say why,but lets go."

Has the most important skill. Not much is lost if he is wrong sometimes.

This one post right here should be stickied. Very well said HiBC

Blue Duck · March 4, 2019, 02:27 AM

The fast draw is not nonsense. Can one whip a pistol out and get an accurate (solid Body hit) in 1 second? If the range is close, (3 yards lets say) then I have to say yes. And 3 yards is very likely. And yes I have done with a timer, a lot.

I am aware of a real life gunfight, (happened a couple of years ago) where I personally knew the good guys. Two thugs with hoodies come into a local gunshop. They have already made up there mind to kill all three of the people working in there, two men a woman.

All three store workers are armed, the two men both have a 38 J-frame in their front pants pockets. Shots are fired by the perps, first, but miss, neither man can get his pistol out of his pocket, both have to seek cover, and it's a wonder neither one got hit, but the woman had her gun more accessible and returned fire hitting one of thugs in the upper torso with one shot out of 3 or 4 rounds fired. Not a killing or stopping shot but it was enough resistance to cause the thugs to run back out of the store. They were finally caught in a city about 75 miles away.
I seen the videos and talked to the defenders afterwards, and this all happened pretty darned fast. Bottom line is she was the real gunfighter of the bunch, and was able to react quickly. Neither man (defenders) where even able to get a shot off, because of there mode of carry and slooooooooow access to there pistols.

If either man had been carrying a decent sized gun in a strong side holster (even a singleaction peacemaker,although that would not have been my recomendation), they would have been able to return fire, at least. Fortunately, the woman's quick response probably saved at least one of the men's lives, and probably the woman herself, also.

In this real life gunfight, things had already progressed past, situational awareness, etc.
It was down to lead flying, and the desperate need for return fire, as quickly as possible. One defender cowed down behind the counter on the floor, and the other had to duck and run into the back room for a shotgun, since he couldn't get his gun out either, but the woman stood her ground and returned fire, and got a hit, which probably saved her life.

A fast draw ( or shall I say fast access to a weapon) and quick (REASONABLY ACCURATE) return fire may not be the end all of personal defense, but it sure as heck should not to be dismissed as unimportant, and it just might be the last chance to survive the situation.

Brit · March 4, 2019, 06:59 AM

HiBC.

Most of my fighting has been fists, and feet. Bouncing for 5 years in Liverpool UK. Part-time job. Thur/Fri/Sat nights. I won all my fights. Because I attacked first. See the threat, before the Person/Persons actually moved to attack me.

In the 60s in the UK, it was the way to go. Here as a Citizen of these United States, I carry a Glock 19. In my Wife shopping (me reading in my Jeep outside) at Publix. Cell phone call. "I am being followed by two scruffs, pants hanging down no basket, no cart" When my Wife exited, I was standing behind my Security Vehicle, shirt undone, G19 on right hip.
They saw me and ran.

Good ending.

You have to have the mindset to attack! Mine is alive and well, a threat to my Wife! I know what I am going to do. I have done it before, no gunplay, even though on one occasion I was armed. Again Glock 19.
But not gun time.

I have pointed guns, more than once, not fired, no need too. It really helps being in violent fights previously and just acted, no thought.

Crossing the waste of time, thinking helps. Just move.

In my late 20s, early 30s, I liked to fight. All part of the job. Now at 83, not so much! Very rarely do I go anywhere without my Wife. We love being together. And never without my holstered G19. And spare G17 magazine.

ROCK6 · March 4, 2019, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

I remember a Force-on-Force course I took where I was wearing a sweater with elastic around the bottom as a cover garment. I lifted with my weak hand to access the Glock. Then I pulled the Glock straight up and snagged the slide on the elastic, the elastic gave a little bit at first as I drew and then rubberbanded the Glock straight out of my hand and at the feet of my attacker as I tried to rotate it.

As comedy goes, it was a great success; but it did impress on me there were worse things than a slow, smooth, draw. Weapon manipulation is, of course, very important; but I just don’t think it is as important as the amount of attention it often receives.

While safety is always a concern, this is what happens when you train with how you carry. Embarrassing, yes; but also immeasurably instructive. Once I started doing the timed 3-foot drills, speed is the last part of the equation. Yes, I want a fast draw, and at those engagement distances, you're shooting once you've cleared the holster (threat is an arm's length away).

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. While I never dropped my handgun (yet), drawing quickly from concealment, funny things can happen. When you add a timer as a stressor, you start to realize how many parts play a role. While I would hope my situational awareness wouldn't let an attacker or threat get that close, it's a reality that can happen to anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireForged

The skills I consider most practical:

Awareness
Judgment
Mental Resolve (grit)
Tactics
Strategics
Marksmanship
Smooth, practiced and unencumbered presentation of a weapon
Fitness

We've all mentioned the prevention methods of awareness and avoiding potential SD situations, but there are other extremely valuable skills FireForged mentioned. Tactics don't come into play after an engagement occurs. How you position yourself in a public bathroom, the distance you walk from a wall, don't round a corner to sharply, keep cover close, and always scope out escape routes; these are pre-engagement tactics and when combined with your awareness allows you to change your direction or actions before things go south.

I really like the "smooth, practiced and unencumber presentation" point. This simply can't be stressed enough and should be practiced routinely. It should be about speed, but slow, smooth practice will result in an "unencumbered" presentation that will increase in speed the more you practice.

Fitness is one I always harp on. I don't want to get on a soap box, but your activity, health, environmental conditions will affect your access, unencumbered speed of presentation, and very likely your marksmanship. Consider your adrenalin if the "event" is played out over several minutes; your heart-rate will spike, your hands may get sweaty, you may get tunnel vision. Do a 100 meter sprint before you start your drills and see how it impacts your time, motor skills, presentation, and accuracy.

Much to consider, and there are so many factors, but many can be integrated into your training. Start slow, focus on smooth, repetition will increase your reaction times, and that practice will minimize mistakes.

Always good info to hear here, even the reminders, and others' lessons learned.

ROCK6

davidsog · March 4, 2019, 12:44 PM

Quote:

there were worse things than a slow, smooth, draw.

Slow is smooth...Smooth is fast.

The winner of every gun fight I have ever been involved with is not the first one to get their gun out...it is the first one to connect with at least an incapacitating shot.

As you found out, it does nothing to "rush to your death" or another common mistake in CQB, "clear the room with your feet".

Train with the set up and equipment you carry. Train from the holster to follow thru including the scan after the immediate threat/fight. Always incorporate magazine changes and reholstering.

When you get those nice big holes in the target and shot groups look all pretty...that is a clue to speed it up.

When your groups look like shotgun blast and you are having flyers....that is clue to slow it down again.

The two push/pull one another and with time on the range training....you get better.

Slow is smooth...smooth is fast.

stephen426 · March 4, 2019, 02:40 PM

HiBC,

You make some great points and those tactics will certainly give you advance warning that something is going down. I know that most criminals would prefer unwitting and unsuspecting targets, but if you have been chosen as the target, you still need to address the threat.

My response was to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike38

I'd say the most important thing is situational awareness. Stay out of a bad situation, and drawing a weapon wouldn't even be necessary.

briandg · March 4, 2019, 06:04 PM

Around here it is a popular game for guys on bikes to silently stalk people walking the trails and then shout as they reach them.

You really can't hear a bike coming on hard surface,and that sudden noise, at least in my case causes a real over-reaction. Since there have been a few attacks on these trails as they cross through woods, it leaves me rather edgy sometimes.

When I carried nothing but a fixed blade knife I actually drew my blade several times as I spun around. once a guy was coming up and rode through a pile of oak leaves, the racket could wake a dead deaf man. I had my pistol out of the holster as I turned but never presented it.

No matter how hard you work at it you can't be aware of what is behind you when you are on food on a curving path in dense second growth on heavy packed stone. You can hear a pedestrian usually. Hearing a bike? not until he is ten feet behind you. The slight crackling of the stone is drowned out by your own walking or the group's, your own breathing (and the creaking of your joints). The sound made by a person behind you is completely absorbed by the ambient noise that surrounds you.

Yes, if these had been actual attackers the speed of my draw would have mattered. Situational awareness is literally impossible when an invisible and silent adversary can appear at your back in a matter of seconds.

Most of the time "i didn't see it coming they came out of nowhere" is nothing but a lame excuse. A guy steps into a street and is mowed down, "gee, he came out of nowhere. he wasn't in the street when I got there!" Lame. You didn't see him wandering on the sidewalk with his face in his phone and his hand on his latte, or see him step off of the curb just before he stepped into your path? Speedy reaction time doesn't trump opening your eyes and trying to see future outcomes. the one most important reason for saying that is that only a tiny fraction of the people in this nation could draw and fire for effect under the circumstances of a guy sneaking up and whomping you on the back of the head in a bar.

Rangerrich99 · March 4, 2019, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

cool, that's a bit of shooting, now what do those rounds HIT??? (or is it time from buzzer to trigger pull with no actual shooting??)

because the fastest draw means NOTHING without good hits.

There's a story in the movie UNFORGIVEN, about the guy who might have won the shootout, if he hadn't been the fastest draw...

Something to consider, despite the obvious risk, a slower accurate hit beats a faster miss.

Sorry this is a bit belated, 44;

The 25 draws in the morning are usually in my man cave, usually with my Shield, which has a CTC laser mounted, so I can at least where I'm aiming and how steady/consistent my trigger press is that morning.

I'm aiming at an old Discountflies.com sticker I have pasted on the cork-board above my fly-tying desk; it's about the width of a softball, around five feet off the floor. Distance is about 15 feet.

In the winter I'll head over to Ben Avery, an outdoor range that allows drawing from the holster about once a week and run my 25 draws there at 5 or 10 yards. That's where I use the 6-inch x 10-inch sheets of paper.

Brit · March 5, 2019, 05:30 AM

A few years ago, a Buddy and I were at a PPC match in Rochester NY. The day of the Snubby part of the match, my Buddy went down with the nose drip of the year!

So I went on my own. My revolvers in a purpose-built instrument case. Looked like a camera case. But driving back to the Holiday Inn, my Colt Commander LW was holstered under my sweater.

Each floor of the Parking Garage was full! Except for the top floor. I backed into a spot, grabbed my case, and just then noticed two young guys, leaned against the two cars, facing each other, at the entrance to the stairs into the Hotel. Both very rudely feet up on the side of the cars they were leaning on.

They both were very interested in my case! In my left hand, in fact, very focused on it. The good old 7M distance from them, I bent from the waist and slid the case onto the gravel surface, towards them.

When I stood up, 45 was in both hands, at 45 degrees! Classic ready position, I was proud of my magic trick!

"You are in my way Lads" They just about died! Took off at a dead run, to my right, and the way I had just driven in from. One ran behind the vehicles, one in front. A loud scream from the behind the cars running young fellow.
Just after a clunk sound. He then switched to the front, with his buddy but limping like anything.

After they had disappeared around the curve, I walked over to look behind this big old Station Wagan. The type with the false wood grain finish.
The tow bar stood out about 2 ft! That must have hurt.

I told the Desk Clerk about this incident (Left out the gun part) he just looked bemused? The Liverpool accent? The 45 cal muzzle must have looked like a drain pipe! I think a change of careers might have taken place right there.

USNRet93 · March 5, 2019, 07:47 AM

Quote:

I am aware of a real life gunfight, (happened a couple of years ago) where I personally knew the good guys. Two thugs with hoodies come into a local gunshop. They have already made up there mind to kill all three of the people working in there, two men a woman.

Quote:

All three store workers are armed, the two men both have a 38 J-frame in their front pants pockets.

Yikes..attacking a business with sales people who are known to be armed with handguns probably open carried. I guess criminals are pretty dumb..

Bartholomew Roberts · March 5, 2019, 08:31 AM

Once again, I am seeing a thread drift in the direction of “You can’t have perfect situational awareness at all times so let’s all go work on our draw, which is more fun anyway.”

But not being able to remain in ninja-alertness at every moment doesn’t mean you can practice simple but effective tasks to aid the observation and orrientation parts of your loop. Play the “where are the exits?” game when you go into a place. Play the “What if?” game.

Walk with a purpose and look where you are going and you’ll be ahead of half the people around you.

Walk briskly - it is a lot harder to ambush someone if they keep on trucking right through the kill zone or they are out of your zone of control before you can even get the first few words of your sad story distraction out. If nothing else, that last tip alone will save you a lot of interaction with bums in urban areas.

Having a smooth draw that you can execute automatically and without thinking is important (but not most important). Your brain doesn’t have time to devote cycles to weapons manipulation and if you don’t do that like you breathe, you’ll make your OODA loop unnecessarily long.

Once you can do that though, contiuing to hone down your draw time 0.1 second at a time gives you no practical edge in force on force. There are just too many other places in the OODA loop where you can pick up multiple seconds instead of tenths of a second.

davidsog · March 5, 2019, 11:06 AM

Quote:

I can't remember where I saw it -- YouTube, surely -- and someone was opining that the most important, but usually least practiced, skill for CCW was a lightning fast draw from concealment.

I think situational awareness is another subject and deserving of its own thread. While it is extremely important if not the most important skill, one need only study the greatest aces in history to realize SA breaks down and everyone gets surprised. Which is why all the world's greatest aces have been shot down at one time or another.

The OP wants to know the importance of the old west concept of the "fastest gun."

tipoc · March 5, 2019, 01:48 PM

This video was posted here earlier. it's a good example of a number of things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr6UtCW5zZs

1. All quiet in the bank. 3 tellers and one armed guard chatting. Note that the guard is in a position where he can see the whole bank (the lobby and behind the heavy counters) from where he stands talking and is also behind cover.

2. Armed, masked robber runs into the bank, drawing attention to himself before he enters the bank. This alerts all inside even before he begins waving the gun.

3. The tellers take cover (good cover not just concealment) as the robber enters the bank. The guard also sees him, as he enters, and reaches for his gun, drawing it and firing at the robber. The guard stumbles as he does so and avoids a fall. He has good position behind cover.

4. The robber sees the guard for the first time, meaning he realizes that the guard is a guard, and points the weapon in his direction as the guard fires.

5. The guard has made a draw that is neither fast nor smooth but very good for the situation. The guard saw the armed robber before the robber knew the guard was a guard and armed. After firing the guard steps back out of the line of the robber 's fire and stumbles for the second time and again avoids a fall. He and the robber exchange fire and it's over quickly.

Points to note:The guard and tellers were given advance warning by the robber drawing attention to himself and that he was armed before he actually entered the bank proper (got through the foyer).

The guard and tellers had good cover and made use of it. This allowed the guard to focus on the robber. The robber had none.

The guard had a second, given him by the robber, to take stock, reach for his weapon, while stumbling, and draw, all before the robber was fully aware that he was an armed guard. The guard took aim and shot first.

The guard's draw was not fast. It was practiced and smooth under the circumstances. It was made while he was moving and trying not to fall down.

The robber was an amateur and paid the price for it.

This is a very good example of good situational awareness and a guy doing his job well. The draw is a part of what's going right. But it's not the key part. It would be a mistake to think it's "the most important skill."

tipoc

FireForged · March 5, 2019, 09:19 PM

The bottom line is that although speed is certainly helpful, you don't want to be a one trick pony. Being fast doesn't mean you can fight or even know how to fight. I have seen this in FoF training on many occasions. The more practical thing is to refrain from narrowly focusing on any one skill. Armed conflict is very much a comprehensive Kwan and if that is the case, its very much about many things and not one thing.

Bartholomew Roberts · March 6, 2019, 12:50 AM

On the bank video, note that the guard doesn’t react to the robber - he reacts to seeing the people he is chatting with dropping and seeking cover.

Brit · March 6, 2019, 07:32 AM

The one thing the Guard did not do, which is quite common! He did not freeze! He kept his cool and dealt with the situation.

One up for the good guys. Wonder what his blood pressure was?

SIGSHR · March 7, 2019, 03:06 PM

Situational awareness is important but I suspect most violent encounters are very much spur of the moment-no build up or signalling, more like an ambush. An ability to switch gears, to go from Condition White to Condition Red-0 to 60 in 3 seconds flat. I doubt if many of us will ever match Bill Jordan's time, but a fast, smooth fluid draw is a skill worth mastering.

March 3, 2019, 12:27 PM	#53
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	I'm guessing some people have better crystal balls or they choose to live in a bubble. Why bother carrying a gun if your situational awareness can keep you out of trouble? Situational awareness is just that... AWARENESS. We cannot control what happens IF things do go south, but being aware will certainly give us more time to react. We should still practice drawing our guns (preferably loaded but unchambered for safety) so we have the skill IF we ever need it. While the term quick draw may bring up images of the old westerns, we should take it as a smooth, fast draw that is well practiced. If your range does not allow for drawing from concealment, I would recommend buying a very good quality airsoft gun that is a very good replica of your carry gun. There are some that have very similar weighting. If airsoft is not available, go with a BB or pellet gun. The advantage of airsoft is that it can be done indoors with minimal risk of damage. I hang a towel behind my target and have it drop into a box. While we might not ever need to skill, why not learn it and practice it just in case? Isn't that why we carry a gun, even though most of us have never had to shoot anyone, much less draw it? __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

March 3, 2019, 01:05 PM	#55
RaySendero Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2010 Location: US South Posts: 857	Well...My mind is not suave either. I think the most important thing in self defense is to be prepared and have a gun! And, It sure won't hurt to be proficient with a fast & accurate draw. __________________ *Ray*

March 4, 2019, 02:27 AM	#60
Blue Duck Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2006 Posts: 402	The fast draw is not nonsense. Can one whip a pistol out and get an accurate (solid Body hit) in 1 second? If the range is close, (3 yards lets say) then I have to say yes. And 3 yards is very likely. And yes I have done with a timer, a lot. I am aware of a real life gunfight, (happened a couple of years ago) where I personally knew the good guys. Two thugs with hoodies come into a local gunshop. They have already made up there mind to kill all three of the people working in there, two men a woman. All three store workers are armed, the two men both have a 38 J-frame in their front pants pockets. Shots are fired by the perps, first, but miss, neither man can get his pistol out of his pocket, both have to seek cover, and it's a wonder neither one got hit, but the woman had her gun more accessible and returned fire hitting one of thugs in the upper torso with one shot out of 3 or 4 rounds fired. Not a killing or stopping shot but it was enough resistance to cause the thugs to run back out of the store. They were finally caught in a city about 75 miles away. I seen the videos and talked to the defenders afterwards, and this all happened pretty darned fast. Bottom line is she was the real gunfighter of the bunch, and was able to react quickly. Neither man (defenders) where even able to get a shot off, because of there mode of carry and slooooooooow access to there pistols. If either man had been carrying a decent sized gun in a strong side holster (even a singleaction peacemaker,although that would not have been my recomendation), they would have been able to return fire, at least. Fortunately, the woman's quick response probably saved at least one of the men's lives, and probably the woman herself, also. In this real life gunfight, things had already progressed past, situational awareness, etc. It was down to lead flying, and the desperate need for return fire, as quickly as possible. One defender cowed down behind the counter on the floor, and the other had to duck and run into the back room for a shotgun, since he couldn't get his gun out either, but the woman stood her ground and returned fire, and got a hit, which probably saved her life. A fast draw ( or shall I say fast access to a weapon) and quick (REASONABLY ACCURATE) return fire may not be the end all of personal defense, but it sure as heck should not to be dismissed as unimportant, and it just might be the last chance to survive the situation. Last edited by Blue Duck; March 4, 2019 at 02:43 AM.

March 4, 2019, 06:04 PM	#65
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	Around here it is a popular game for guys on bikes to silently stalk people walking the trails and then shout as they reach them. You really can't hear a bike coming on hard surface,and that sudden noise, at least in my case causes a real over-reaction. Since there have been a few attacks on these trails as they cross through woods, it leaves me rather edgy sometimes. When I carried nothing but a fixed blade knife I actually drew my blade several times as I spun around. once a guy was coming up and rode through a pile of oak leaves, the racket could wake a dead deaf man. I had my pistol out of the holster as I turned but never presented it. No matter how hard you work at it you can't be aware of what is behind you when you are on food on a curving path in dense second growth on heavy packed stone. You can hear a pedestrian usually. Hearing a bike? not until he is ten feet behind you. The slight crackling of the stone is drowned out by your own walking or the group's, your own breathing (and the creaking of your joints). The sound made by a person behind you is completely absorbed by the ambient noise that surrounds you. Yes, if these had been actual attackers the speed of my draw would have mattered. Situational awareness is literally impossible when an invisible and silent adversary can appear at your back in a matter of seconds. Most of the time "i didn't see it coming they came out of nowhere" is nothing but a lame excuse. A guy steps into a street and is mowed down, "gee, he came out of nowhere. he wasn't in the street when I got there!" Lame. You didn't see him wandering on the sidewalk with his face in his phone and his hand on his latte, or see him step off of the curb just before he stepped into your path? Speedy reaction time doesn't trump opening your eyes and trying to see future outcomes. the one most important reason for saying that is that only a tiny fraction of the people in this nation could draw and fire for effect under the circumstances of a guy sneaking up and whomping you on the back of the head in a bar. __________________ None.

March 5, 2019, 01:48 PM	#71
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	This video was posted here earlier. it's a good example of a number of things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr6UtCW5zZs 1. All quiet in the bank. 3 tellers and one armed guard chatting. Note that the guard is in a position where he can see the whole bank (the lobby and behind the heavy counters) from where he stands talking and is also behind cover. 2. Armed, masked robber runs into the bank, drawing attention to himself before he enters the bank. This alerts all inside even before he begins waving the gun. 3. The tellers take cover (good cover not just concealment) as the robber enters the bank. The guard also sees him, as he enters, and reaches for his gun, drawing it and firing at the robber. The guard stumbles as he does so and avoids a fall. He has good position behind cover. 4. The robber sees the guard for the first time, meaning he realizes that the guard is a guard, and points the weapon in his direction as the guard fires. 5. The guard has made a draw that is neither fast nor smooth but very good for the situation. The guard saw the armed robber before the robber knew the guard was a guard and armed. After firing the guard steps back out of the line of the robber 's fire and stumbles for the second time and again avoids a fall. He and the robber exchange fire and it's over quickly. Points to note:The guard and tellers were given advance warning by the robber drawing attention to himself and that he was armed before he actually entered the bank proper (got through the foyer). The guard and tellers had good cover and made use of it. This allowed the guard to focus on the robber. The robber had none. The guard had a second, given him by the robber, to take stock, reach for his weapon, while stumbling, and draw, all before the robber was fully aware that he was an armed guard. The guard took aim and shot first. The guard's draw was not fast. It was practiced and smooth under the circumstances. It was made while he was moving and trying not to fall down. The robber was an amateur and paid the price for it. This is a very good example of good situational awareness and a guy doing his job well. The draw is a part of what's going right. But it's not the key part. It would be a mistake to think it's "the most important skill." tipoc __________________ 1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it. Last edited by tipoc; March 5, 2019 at 01:53 PM.

March 3, 2019, 10:24 AM	#51
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	Get a shot timer and go to the range. Set the shot timer on delay start and go. At the buzzer draw and shoot a target. Note the time. Now draw and aim your pistol at the target and hit the timer again. You will instantly realize what I was talking about in my last post.

March 3, 2019, 11:59 AM	#52
Mike38 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: North Central Illinois Posts: 2,710	I'm replying after reading the original post only, to not have my mind swayed at all. I'd say the most important thing is situational awareness. Stay out of a bad situation, and drawing a weapon wouldn't even be necessary. Second most important would be getting that first shot on target. Matters not how fast you can draw, the person with the first hit instantly has the advantage.

March 4, 2019, 06:59 AM	#61
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	HiBC. Most of my fighting has been fists, and feet. Bouncing for 5 years in Liverpool UK. Part-time job. Thur/Fri/Sat nights. I won all my fights. Because I attacked first. See the threat, before the Person/Persons actually moved to attack me. In the 60s in the UK, it was the way to go. Here as a Citizen of these United States, I carry a Glock 19. In my Wife shopping (me reading in my Jeep outside) at Publix. Cell phone call. "I am being followed by two scruffs, pants hanging down no basket, no cart" When my Wife exited, I was standing behind my Security Vehicle, shirt undone, G19 on right hip. They saw me and ran. Good ending. You have to have the mindset to attack! Mine is alive and well, a threat to my Wife! I know what I am going to do. I have done it before, no gunplay, even though on one occasion I was armed. Again Glock 19. But not gun time. I have pointed guns, more than once, not fired, no need too. It really helps being in violent fights previously and just acted, no thought. Crossing the waste of time, thinking helps. Just move. In my late 20s, early 30s, I liked to fight. All part of the job. Now at 83, not so much! Very rarely do I go anywhere without my Wife. We love being together. And never without my holstered G19. And spare G17 magazine.

March 5, 2019, 05:30 AM	#67
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	A few years ago, a Buddy and I were at a PPC match in Rochester NY. The day of the Snubby part of the match, my Buddy went down with the nose drip of the year! So I went on my own. My revolvers in a purpose-built instrument case. Looked like a camera case. But driving back to the Holiday Inn, my Colt Commander LW was holstered under my sweater. Each floor of the Parking Garage was full! Except for the top floor. I backed into a spot, grabbed my case, and just then noticed two young guys, leaned against the two cars, facing each other, at the entrance to the stairs into the Hotel. Both very rudely feet up on the side of the cars they were leaning on. They both were very interested in my case! In my left hand, in fact, very focused on it. The good old 7M distance from them, I bent from the waist and slid the case onto the gravel surface, towards them. When I stood up, 45 was in both hands, at 45 degrees! Classic ready position, I was proud of my magic trick! "You are in my way Lads" They just about died! Took off at a dead run, to my right, and the way I had just driven in from. One ran behind the vehicles, one in front. A loud scream from the behind the cars running young fellow. Just after a clunk sound. He then switched to the front, with his buddy but limping like anything. After they had disappeared around the curve, I walked over to look behind this big old Station Wagan. The type with the false wood grain finish. The tow bar stood out about 2 ft! That must have hurt. I told the Desk Clerk about this incident (Left out the gun part) he just looked bemused? The Liverpool accent? The 45 cal muzzle must have looked like a drain pipe! I think a change of careers might have taken place right there.

March 5, 2019, 08:31 AM	#69
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Once again, I am seeing a thread drift in the direction of “You can’t have perfect situational awareness at all times so let’s all go work on our draw, which is more fun anyway.” But not being able to remain in ninja-alertness at every moment doesn’t mean you can practice simple but effective tasks to aid the observation and orrientation parts of your loop. Play the “where are the exits?” game when you go into a place. Play the “What if?” game. Walk with a purpose and look where you are going and you’ll be ahead of half the people around you. Walk briskly - it is a lot harder to ambush someone if they keep on trucking right through the kill zone or they are out of your zone of control before you can even get the first few words of your sad story distraction out. If nothing else, that last tip alone will save you a lot of interaction with bums in urban areas. Having a smooth draw that you can execute automatically and without thinking is important (but not most important). Your brain doesn’t have time to devote cycles to weapons manipulation and if you don’t do that like you breathe, you’ll make your OODA loop unnecessarily long. Once you can do that though, contiuing to hone down your draw time 0.1 second at a time gives you no practical edge in force on force. There are just too many other places in the OODA loop where you can pick up multiple seconds instead of tenths of a second.

March 5, 2019, 09:19 PM	#72
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	The bottom line is that although speed is certainly helpful, you don't want to be a one trick pony. Being fast doesn't mean you can fight or even know how to fight. I have seen this in FoF training on many occasions. The more practical thing is to refrain from narrowly focusing on any one skill. Armed conflict is very much a comprehensive Kwan and if that is the case, its very much about many things and not one thing. __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

March 6, 2019, 12:50 AM	#73
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	On the bank video, note that the guard doesn’t react to the robber - he reacts to seeing the people he is chatting with dropping and seeking cover.

March 6, 2019, 07:32 AM	#74
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	The one thing the Guard did not do, which is quite common! He did not freeze! He kept his cool and dealt with the situation. One up for the good guys. Wonder what his blood pressure was?

March 7, 2019, 03:06 PM	#75
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Situational awareness is important but I suspect most violent encounters are very much spur of the moment-no build up or signalling, more like an ambush. An ability to switch gears, to go from Condition White to Condition Red-0 to 60 in 3 seconds flat. I doubt if many of us will ever match Bill Jordan's time, but a fast, smooth fluid draw is a skill worth mastering.

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