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Old April 25, 2017, 03:25 PM   #1
Dfariswheel
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Low recoil buckshot loads

I'm going to go back to a shotgun as a home defense gun.
Due to serious shoulder problems I can no longer shoot standard buckshot loads, nor can I handle and maneuver a standard type shotgun.

I've bought a Kel-Tec KSG Bullpup shotgun which is the gun I'll be using.
I need advice on the lightest possible recoiling buckshot ammo available.
Limitations are:

1. I will only consider buckshot, NO birdshot.
I don't feel comfortable with birdshot in a Real World in-your-face encounter across the living room, which is where it would be used.

2. I have the gun I'll be using so I need no advice on other types of firearms, the KSG is it.

3. Reloading is not an option.
I haven't reloaded shot shells since the 70's and I don't know any reloader I'd care to trust.

4. Ammo needs to be readily available.

My first consideration was Aguila 1 3/4 inch Mini-Shells.
Problem with that is uncertain feed reliability even in guns known to usually work with them.
Also, the Aguila is virtually impossible to find and when you do the seller is usually scalping on the price.
For those reasons I've ruled the Aguila out.

My current possibility is the Nobelsport 2 1/4 inch #00 buckshot load.
These contain 6 pellets of #00 and are "apparently" a low recoil load.

I'd like to ask if anyone has any experience with Nobelsport 2 1/4 inch buck or standard Reduced Recoil buck shotgun shells as far as actual recoil.
I fully understand that felt recoil is subjective.

I had to stop shooting high power rifle years ago, and currently all I have to compare with is my AR-15 5.56mm.
I'm still familiar with recoil of the AK-47 in 7.62x39.
As example just HOW low recoil are the standard Reduced Recoil loads offered in 2 3/4 inch standard shells by Remington, Federal and others, and how would the low recoil shells compare to the 7.62x39?

If anyone can offer actual experience of low recoil shells and possibly recommend something as light as possible, I'd appreciate it.
Experience with the Noblesport 2 1/4 inch loads would be very useful.
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Old April 25, 2017, 03:37 PM   #2
Model12Win
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Get a 20 bore gas gun with light buckshots. Low recoil.
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Old April 25, 2017, 04:43 PM   #3
2damnold4this
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I would think that any shotgun load would have much heavier recoil than your AR15. The Hornady eight pellet 00 CD load doesn't recoil as much as the S&B 12 pellet load but it still hits my shoulder harder than a .308 and worlds harder than a 5.56.
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Old April 25, 2017, 04:44 PM   #4
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I have used Federal and Fiocchi. They use 9 pellets and lower the velocity to a claimed 1140 / 1150 fps. Knocking 190 / 180 fps muzzle velocity does drop the kick a fair amount and both patterned well for me out of my Mossies.

I am hesitant to recommend the 2 1/4 " shells since they have issues in many guns. You might want to order a couple boxes and try to run them just for the educational value. If they work in your gun them get more; if not you will know without having your backside on the line.
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Old April 25, 2017, 05:47 PM   #5
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Well i'm just going to come out and say it.
Whatever damage full power buckshot is going to do to you is better than being dead.

Practice with whatever low recoil you would like but load for protection of life.
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Old April 25, 2017, 07:50 PM   #6
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I've used Remington reduced recoil 00 buck and found it more pleasant than the normal stuff. IIRC it's 7 pellets at a reduced velocity.
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Old April 25, 2017, 08:05 PM   #7
Dfariswheel
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Model12win: Please see number 2 above.

All others, thanks for the help.
I understand that no shotgun load is going to recoil like a 5.56, but I used that and the 7.62x39 only as a reference as to how much more the recoil of a light buck load would be compared to the AK round.

The problem with shoot the round and worry about the shoulder damage later ignores the possible necessity of getting off a SECOND shot, which might not be possible if the shoulder is wrecked bad enough.

I don't intend to just buy some ammo and trust it without a serious reliability verification process.
Verification of defense ammo, magazines, and gun is something I've always faithfully done and strongly recommend to others.
Just buying a gun and some ammo and trusting your life to them is stupid and tends to add bleach to the gene pool.

Just looking for good feedback on personal experience with low recoil buckshot loads.
I have looked at the Federal and Fiocchi but haven't gotten much recommendation on them from users.
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Old April 25, 2017, 08:12 PM   #8
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for 00 buck this is as light as I shoot.

https://detroitammoco.com/product/su...lets-box-of-5/

its subsonic and a bit more quiet than most 00 buck shot. they also make slugs if you want to try light recoil and low noise.
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Old April 26, 2017, 03:26 PM   #9
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I understand your situation, and I'm sorry I don't have any recommendations for low recoil buckshot, I've never used any nor looked into what is available.

Quote:
I don't feel comfortable with birdshot in a Real World in-your-face encounter across the living room, which is where it would be used.
I also get that you aren't "comfortable" with birdshot, but I need to ask this, what have you actually shot at across the living room range with bird shot??

I'm not going to recommend birdshot, but if you have the ability, you ought to get some and shoot some things at across the living room range with it. An old coat, a piece of drywall, perhaps a melon or something like that. See what it actually DOES out of your gun at close range. How big and how concentrated the pattern is at that range.

Dove loads (3 or 3 1/4 dr eq.) are about the lightest loads without going to "lite target" loads. What they can do at point blank range might surprise you.

Remember the point of defensive shooting is to STOP the attack. Whatever it takes. My Grandfather, who grew up over a century ago, and had the attitudes of that earlier era was fine with the idea of using birdshot for defense inside the house. His recommendation also included shooting the attacker in the face.

I know this is contrary to current thinking, where buckshot/slugs and torso shots are the "only dependable stoppers", but I often wonder if a 12ga blast to the face at across the room range wouldn't tend to be a bit of a deterrent as well, even if it's "only" birdshot.
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Old April 26, 2017, 03:38 PM   #10
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My concern with defense with birdshot is that no law enforcement agency will allow birdshot to be used, and no real expert will recommend birdshot to be used because of failures to penetrate, especially through heavy winter clothing.

For every case of someone instantly dying right there from a birdshot hit, there are cases where people hit with birdshot have continued shooting or were not seriously damaged enough to be stopped.

As is often stated, "Birdshot makes big bloody, gaping holes".
The problem is that "Birdshot makes big bloody, gaping, SHALLOW holes" which may fail to stop an attack.

A shot to the face would probably be effective, until you consider the difficulty of actually hitting a moving head in a dark room at 3:00am.
The head is on a very flexible neck and is moving, which is why it's so hard to hit.
Added to that the actual small diameter of the shotgun pattern at short ranges and a clean miss is very possible.
I always advise people to NEVER plan your defense on getting more then one shot.
The attacker may get in an effective shot of his own, you can miss, your gun can malfunction, a cartridge may misfire, you can trip.
One may be all you get so you need to make it a good one.

I would rather not chance a failure to stop an attack at "in your face" range when I have more assurance with buckshot.
The fact that NO real expert or professional will recommend or use birdshot for defense is telling.

Last edited by Dfariswheel; April 26, 2017 at 03:45 PM.
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Old April 26, 2017, 08:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
My concern with defense with birdshot is that no law enforcement agency will allow birdshot to be used, and no real expert will recommend birdshot to be used because of failures to penetrate, especially through heavy winter clothing.
Law enforcement has so much money to waste that they have non lethal rounds. How much do those bean bag rounds cost.

As for penetration of birdshot it depends on what bird you're shooting. 8's vs BB goose loads make a big difference. Even #5 turkey loads can have double the payload. A turkey choke would be sawing holes through people where as cylinder would be different.

I also don't want to shoot anyone with birdshot but his guy shot a bear.
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/...-bear-birdshot
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Old April 26, 2017, 08:53 PM   #12
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Does your gun have a changeable choke?
Full or extra full choke combined with a heavier bird shot like #4 or larger at 20', it may not be insta kill, but they will die.

Otherwise, one of my ready for action home defense choices is a .22lr with 50 round drum. Ya it's only a .22, but with a 5 "person" home invasions, that's 10 each.
And the 1911.... Ammo choice for today's pistol is off the hook. Just picked up some r.i.p. rounds, radically invasive projectile. It's a two part round. Several petals surrounding the hollow point rip off and travel at an angle from the main slug.
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Old April 27, 2017, 03:24 PM   #13
Dfariswheel
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The problem with heavy birdshot loads is that we're back to heavy recoil, which is what I need to avoid.

Right now my most likely ammo is going to be Nobelsport 2 1/4 inch #00 buckshot.
I'm at least going with that as a starting point, and will change to something else if it doesn't prove out.
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Old April 27, 2017, 09:53 PM   #14
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Do any of the local ranges offer rentals of different guns?

Or do you live be in an area with legal suppersors? Aka "silencers"?

Local range here has rentals. Wide selection of rem 870s, including a suppressed one. Suppressors are legal here.

Haven't tried the rem 870s yet. I got guages...
Have tried there selection of 1911s though, including the suppressed one. Really does reduce recoil. Although it obstructs sights and is very front heavy.

Personally, I can't imagine not wanting more guns. But if you can add a suppressor, it may help with what you want.
And it may be possible to test the idea out 1st.
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Old April 27, 2017, 10:36 PM   #15
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In all fairness, it is kind of hard to give you a recommendation. Recoil is the most subjective aspect of shooting... and add in that there is no way for any of us to know what your shoulder can take, we all are going in blind.

I keep Remington L/E Reduced Recoil (00) in my Ithaca... which would be what my girlfriend would use. I shoot PDX1 out of my 870 Police. The Remingtons are lighter recoiling... but you still feel an impact on your shoulder. I did get a few boxes of Federal Low Recoil (00) for my pistol grip Mossberg... never shot it (ammo or gun, which the latter was sold after I got my KSG).

While you said you had to get out of high-power rifle... and you kept your AR, I would figure a 12 Gauge pump action isn't going to be beneficial to your shoulder. No gas or recoil system to dampen the recoil, so it is all going into your shoulder. Remember, the two rifle examples (AR and AK) are both gas operated... so more complexity with people giving an answer.

What is your plan for trying these out? Is it going to be someone else shooting, and then you trying what they/you feel is safe? What about practice (especially on the KSG)?

Wish you the best with it, but no matter what your rules were, I really hope you think your decision through.
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Old April 28, 2017, 02:04 PM   #16
Dfariswheel
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My plan is to cowboy up and test fire ammo myself.
I'll know instantly if it's going to work.

For practice I intend to use the lightest load I can find of a field or target load in standard 2 3/4 inch.

Having heard more about it, I'll probably give the Remington Reduced Recoil load a try.
Others I'll need to look into are the Federal reduced load and one or two brands of "off brand" shells sold by Academy.
My first experiment will probably be the Nobelsport 2 1/4 inch load, and go from there.

It was tempting to stick with the Colt M4 or even a pistol, but at close range I've always felt more comfortable with a shotgun, so I bought the Kel-Tec KSG.
As far as the quality and "feel" of the KSG I give it high marks.
It's nothing like the fragile, low quality gun it apparently was when first sold.
It's a very solid feeling gun, and most parts other then the stock and grips are steel.
The plastic used is one of the modern high quality types.
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Old April 28, 2017, 02:43 PM   #17
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What about left handed, or just firing from the hip with a pistol grip?
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Old April 28, 2017, 02:56 PM   #18
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Without having to buy spendy buck to test... you can get Win. AA 1 1/8 oz. birdshot that is listed at 1145 fps. This will throw the same weight and velocity as the Fed. reduced recoil buck. If the Win load is too much for you then you have some birdshot that is easliy disposed of. If you can handle it then you can look for the Fed or Fiocchi buck if you so desire.
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Old April 28, 2017, 03:11 PM   #19
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I use the Federal power-shok low recoil 2-3/4 00 buck shot with 9 pellets for my 12ga home defense ammo needs. I am thinking about changing over to a 20ga though for my needs. Hope you find a setup that works for ya.
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Old April 28, 2017, 05:55 PM   #20
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20 gauge buckshot can be hard to get. Go to 16 gauge, used guns are pretty reasonable.
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Old April 30, 2017, 10:04 PM   #21
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Fiocchi 12LE00BK reduced recoil 12 gauge ammo is an excellent product at a very modest price, and in the past it was assembled in the USA.

The almost clear cases are a nice touch because it lets you see what is inside

Often available for less than $6.00 for a box of 10 shells
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Old April 30, 2017, 11:24 PM   #22
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I'm having a real problem here. ½mv² exiting the muzzle -- which is necessary to stop the TrulyTrulyBadGuy -- can't be violated to be gentle to the SensitiveGoodGuy.

You're either going to throw an effective load of buckshot -- enough of it/going fast enough -- to get the job done or you're not.

So I'm not going recommend anything reduced-recoil.
Instead I suggest taking the standard 2¾ 00 Buck out...
...and get used to it.
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Old May 3, 2017, 09:44 PM   #23
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The left shoulder, or other shoulder, is that one bad too?

I've got a flashlight/laser combo that clamps to barrel. Poi is a bit high, but it does get in the ballpark and is accurate for left to right.

I haven't tried it on my off side shoulder, but I should be just as accurate on laser pointed shots on my off shoulder.

Been meaning to experiment with turning light over and seeing if laser gets closer to poi. Laser is on outer edge of light and I've currently got it on bottom.

Picked up flashlight/laser at big 5 for $30, on sale. Flashlight also has strobe mode. Which would help to disorient the target. Sadly, laser only works by itself or in solid light mode.
Also has 2 end caps. Normal and pressure switch that attach to stock.
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Old May 4, 2017, 08:51 AM   #24
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I've shot the Federal low recoil tactical buckshot quite a bit and it is quite managable. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/12...llets-box-of-5 . It patterns quite well. Well, that is to say fairly tightly. It's not the fill the room with death horsepoop.

However, not to divert but I'll be straight forward. Ditch the shotgun paradigm for the AR. The shotgun offers nothing over that platform.

Ignore this advice if you want and do get the low recoil tactical buck that's out there if this is your decision.
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Old May 4, 2017, 09:05 AM   #25
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^Agree.
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