Historically incorrect guns. - Page 2

SIGSHR · June 9, 2019, 01:57 PM

Ian Fleming received a letter from the noted British handgun authority Geoffrey Boothroyd about the mistake he made in Bond's armament. In the next story "Major Boothroyd" had been appointed Bond's armo(u)rer.
Every now and then they get it right. There's a brief scene in Rough Riders where Patrick Gorman as Colonel Wallace A. Downs of the 71st New York addresses his troops. one soldier has the rod bayonet of his M1888 45-70 extended.

vito · June 9, 2019, 04:50 PM

Since I was a kid I always wanted one of those revolvers that they used in Westerns that never needed reloading. Who needs a Glock when you have a 6 gun that carries hundreds of rounds?

Dfariswheel · June 9, 2019, 07:04 PM

There was also an actor in what was becoming a hit TV show who put a .44 Magnum loaded with blanks to his own head and killed himself by accident.

Point is these people are TV and movie actors and directors. No one ever claimed they needed to be gun experts or historians.
Usually there's someone on-set who IS (or is supposed to be) a gun expert and in charge of safety but bad/stupid things happen.

They usually hire experts in arms and history as advisers but it's questionable how much they're paid attention to, and many actual historians really know nothing about arms, just the people and places.

**44 AMP** · June 11, 2019, 12:43 PM

Quote:

There was also an actor in what was becoming a hit TV show who put a .44 Magnum loaded with blanks to his own head and killed himself by accident.

I remember hearing about that one. Reportedly, he put the gun to his temple, and the blast from the (.44Mag) blank caved in his skull, killing him.

I have noticed a change, recently, in movies, anyway. There are quite a few of the more recent movies (the last couple decades or so) where there are obviously pains taken to get something that at least looks period correct. I'm sure CGI handles that for the big items (tanks, planes, ships, etc.,) but it seems that many of the recent westerns, and other movies have tried to use the proper guns when possible. Made for TV shows (especially those made in England) much less so...

As to "backwards" bolts and such, its not a matter of the film being run backwards, I've been told its the film negative being "flipped over" not backwards.

GOOD CGI should handle that, but sometimes, doesn't. Its a matter of both budget, timing, and the guys doing it knowing what they are doing.
There is a glaring (to me) CGI error in Enemy at the Gates that most people would never notice. The scene is the tank park at German HQ. Two rows of beautifully rendered CGI Panzer III tanks facing each other. The tanks on one side have the bow machine gun in the right spot (on the right front of the hull), the tanks in the facing row are reversed, with the machine gun on the left. I'm pretty sure this was done as a shortcut, to save work (money). After doing the digital rendering of the row of tanks, correctly, they apparently just flipped it over for the opposite facing row, rather than doing another CGI creation.

it bugs me, because I've built a lot of those tanks as models. Most folks would have no clue.

I thought they did a pretty good job on Saving Private Ryan (aside from the sniper switching scopes and muttering about windage while cranking on the objective lens (focus). But there is a guy wearing a belt of 06 "ammo" where you can clearly see the holed in the cases making them dummy rounds, and a friend pointed out that the markings on the Mustang that blows up the Tiger tank are incorrect for the time and place depicted.

I give them a pass on the Tiger, its a mockup not a real Tiger, but at least they TRIED.

SIGSHR · June 11, 2019, 12:57 PM

The main point is movies-even "historical" ones-are to tell stories.

**44 AMP** · June 11, 2019, 01:10 PM

There are essentially 3 levels.

Documentaries, which are supposed to be true stories.

"based on" a true story, which is where some things will be inaccurate, and often include things that never actually happened, or mis-tell things that did happen

and

"inspired by" a true story...
Where the only connection to real events can be some character and place names....

FLYBOYS, RED TAILS, and FURY are examples of movies "inspired" by true stories, with very, very little actually being historically correct.

azretired · June 14, 2019, 01:05 AM

John Wayne movies were the worst, they made no attempt whatsoever to be accurate. "the Camancheros" is the worst - took place years before the Civil War and they Rangers are using SAA pistols and '92 Winchesters!

UncleEd · June 14, 2019, 02:05 PM

No, no, no AZRetired,

"The Comancheros" is accurate. The 1873 SAA were actually
prototypes sent to Texas for testing but with the coming of the
war, that project was put on a back burner. Those prototypes
were known as the Johnnie Walkers.

The 1892 Winchesters were also developed at that time and
again sent as prototypes to Texas for testing. Those
prototypes were known as the
OHenry. But the
schematics and other details for the gun were misplaced,
only to be found by a guy name John Browning years late.

And the rest is history!

Glenn E. Meyer · June 14, 2019, 02:28 PM

Do you have a reference for that? It's not in the SAA standard history that I've read.

**4V50 Gary** · June 15, 2019, 01:33 PM

If more Confederates were armed with Trapdoor Springfields, they may have won more battles. Saw it in the Jimmy Stewart movie, Shenandoah.

Similiarly, if the Union were equipped with Trapdoors, they may have won the war earlier. Saw that in the Audie Murphy/Bill Mauldin film, The Red Badge of Courage.

If only a few more British soldiers had SMLEs, they could have forced the Zulu regiment at Isandhlawna (sp) to surrender.

mr bolo · June 15, 2019, 03:39 PM

in the movie "WAKE ISLAND" or "GUADALCANAL DIARY" Japanese soldiers are using KRAGS & M1903 Springfields

I remember a scene with a Japanese soldier armed with a KRAG

**44 AMP** · June 15, 2019, 11:21 PM

Sgt Schultz on Hogan's Heroes carried a Krag, so what? hehe

One really can't fault movies made during (or a year or three after) WWII, for not getting the right enemy guns, planes, tanks or ships.

They simply weren't to be had for filming. Even if the producers had wanted them, which most of the time, they didn't bother. It's a movie, it doesn't have to be right, just look close enough...

Glenn E. Meyer · June 16, 2019, 01:09 PM

German use of Krags is legit, they did. Germans used Norwegian 1911s.

**44 AMP** · June 16, 2019, 10:30 PM

Congratulations Glenn, you're one of a small group who knows this.

I have a Norwegian Krag. Three digit ser# 1897 date cal 6.5x55mm

cool rifle.

While I've met a number of people who scoff at Sgt Schultz's Krag, and I freely admit the most likely reason he carried it on the show is that was the rifle the prop room handed out, its not beyond plausibility that a real Luftstalag guard might have something other than the Mauser 98.

Air Force troops, acting as POW camp guards, not the high priority for first line combat weapons. You've captured Norway. You have quite a few of their arms under your control. You need some to arm the guards. How tough is it to put a couple dozen cases of rifles and ammo on a Ju 52 and fly them back to Germany??

Did they actually ever do that? I don't know, but they could have. After D-Day the allies fighting inward from Normandy came up against a lot of former Soviet SVT 40 rifles, so many they at first thought they were a new German design.

Germany sent captured Soviet anti-tank guns to North Africa, too. Very thrifty folks, in some ways. If it still worked after they captured it, they used it, somewhere...

June 9, 2019, 04:50 PM	#27
vito Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2004 Location: IL Posts: 853	Since I was a kid I always wanted one of those revolvers that they used in Westerns that never needed reloading. Who needs a Glock when you have a 6 gun that carries hundreds of rounds? __________________ People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ― George Orwell

June 11, 2019, 01:10 PM	#31
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,795	There are essentially 3 levels. Documentaries, which are supposed to be true stories. "based on" a true story, which is where some things will be inaccurate, and often include things that never actually happened, or mis-tell things that did happen and "inspired by" a true story... Where the only connection to real events can be some character and place names.... FLYBOYS, RED TAILS, and FURY are examples of movies "inspired" by true stories, with very, very little actually being historically correct. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 14, 2019, 01:05 AM	#32
azretired Member Join Date: March 2, 2019 Location: Arizona Posts: 36	John Wayne movies were the worst, they made no attempt whatsoever to be accurate. "the Camancheros" is the worst - took place years before the Civil War and they Rangers are using SAA pistols and '92 Winchesters! __________________ Perception is Reality Retired LEO, US Army veteran, NRA Patron Member

June 14, 2019, 02:28 PM	#34
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Do you have a reference for that? It's not in the SAA standard history that I've read. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

June 15, 2019, 01:33 PM	#35
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	If more Confederates were armed with Trapdoor Springfields, they may have won more battles. Saw it in the Jimmy Stewart movie, Shenandoah. Similiarly, if the Union were equipped with Trapdoors, they may have won the war earlier. Saw that in the Audie Murphy/Bill Mauldin film, The Red Badge of Courage. If only a few more British soldiers had SMLEs, they could have forced the Zulu regiment at Isandhlawna (sp) to surrender. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

June 9, 2019, 01:57 PM	#26
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Ian Fleming received a letter from the noted British handgun authority Geoffrey Boothroyd about the mistake he made in Bond's armament. In the next story "Major Boothroyd" had been appointed Bond's armo(u)rer. Every now and then they get it right. There's a brief scene in Rough Riders where Patrick Gorman as Colonel Wallace A. Downs of the 71st New York addresses his troops. one soldier has the rod bayonet of his M1888 45-70 extended.

June 9, 2019, 07:04 PM	#28
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	There was also an actor in what was becoming a hit TV show who put a .44 Magnum loaded with blanks to his own head and killed himself by accident. Point is these people are TV and movie actors and directors. No one ever claimed they needed to be gun experts or historians. Usually there's someone on-set who IS (or is supposed to be) a gun expert and in charge of safety but bad/stupid things happen. They usually hire experts in arms and history as advisers but it's questionable how much they're paid attention to, and many actual historians really know nothing about arms, just the people and places.

June 11, 2019, 12:57 PM	#30
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	The main point is movies-even "historical" ones-are to tell stories.

June 14, 2019, 02:05 PM	#33
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	No, no, no AZRetired, "The Comancheros" is accurate. The 1873 SAA were actually prototypes sent to Texas for testing but with the coming of the war, that project was put on a back burner. Those prototypes were known as the Johnnie Walkers. The 1892 Winchesters were also developed at that time and again sent as prototypes to Texas for testing. Those prototypes were known as the OHenry. But the schematics and other details for the gun were misplaced, only to be found by a guy name John Browning years late. And the rest is history!

June 15, 2019, 03:39 PM	#36
mr bolo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2012 Posts: 432	in the movie "WAKE ISLAND" or "GUADALCANAL DIARY" Japanese soldiers are using KRAGS & M1903 Springfields I remember a scene with a Japanese soldier armed with a KRAG Last edited by mr bolo; June 15, 2019 at 03:46 PM.

June 15, 2019, 11:21 PM	#37
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,795	Sgt Schultz on Hogan's Heroes carried a Krag, so what? hehe One really can't fault movies made during (or a year or three after) WWII, for not getting the right enemy guns, planes, tanks or ships. They simply weren't to be had for filming. Even if the producers had wanted them, which most of the time, they didn't bother. It's a movie, it doesn't have to be right, just look close enough... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 16, 2019, 01:09 PM	#38
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	German use of Krags is legit, they did. Germans used Norwegian 1911s. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

June 16, 2019, 10:30 PM	#39
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,795	Congratulations Glenn, you're one of a small group who knows this. I have a Norwegian Krag. Three digit ser# 1897 date cal 6.5x55mm cool rifle. While I've met a number of people who scoff at Sgt Schultz's Krag, and I freely admit the most likely reason he carried it on the show is that was the rifle the prop room handed out, its not beyond plausibility that a real Luftstalag guard might have something other than the Mauser 98. Air Force troops, acting as POW camp guards, not the high priority for first line combat weapons. You've captured Norway. You have quite a few of their arms under your control. You need some to arm the guards. How tough is it to put a couple dozen cases of rifles and ammo on a Ju 52 and fly them back to Germany?? Did they actually ever do that? I don't know, but they could have. After D-Day the allies fighting inward from Normandy came up against a lot of former Soviet SVT 40 rifles, so many they at first thought they were a new German design. Germany sent captured Soviet anti-tank guns to North Africa, too. Very thrifty folks, in some ways. If it still worked after they captured it, they used it, somewhere... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

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