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Old August 23, 2021, 09:51 AM   #1
tpcollins
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Most consistent POI - clamped down or resting free?

I’ve seen guys at the range with their rifles clamped tight to their sled and think that can’t be good. I like to have the least amount of “grip” from the front rest and rear bunny bag.

I’m most concerned about the front and rear swivel studs catching and throwing off the shot.

I would think the two different styles would have different POI but which setup would have the most “consistent” POI? Thanks.
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Old August 23, 2021, 10:04 AM   #2
Don Fischer
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I always shoot free resting. If you shoot clamped down, how do you do that in the field? Seems to me maybe the best way in in a rest that holds the butt tight and allows the rifle to free recoil. But then all you'd be testing is the rifle and not yourself.
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Old August 23, 2021, 10:21 AM   #3
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It all depends. Clamping rifles into rests is against most benchrest class rules for a reason. If it were not accurate, there would not be rules about it. Linear bearing and pneumatic shocks are the way to go, but then there are those rules again.
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Old August 23, 2021, 12:34 PM   #4
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Mechanically speaking, the most consistent system is one where the gun cannot move and the entire mechanism vibrates the same way every shot.

Anything that allows any movement can introduce variables which can result in shot to shot differences.

Quote:
Clamping rifles into rests is against most benchrest class rules for a reason. If it were not accurate, there would not be rules about it
That's not the reason.
Clamping the rifle isn't allowed in shooting matches simply because it removes the human element, and the human element is a large part of what the game is about. Its not about who can build the best shooting machine, its about how well the shooter can do with the best rifles he can shoot.

Like auto racing, its not just about who has the best car, its also about who is the best driver.
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Old August 23, 2021, 05:56 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Mechanically speaking, the most consistent system is one where the gun cannot move and the entire mechanism vibrates the same way every shot.

Anything that allows any movement can introduce variables which can result in shot to shot differences.



That's not the reason.
Clamping the rifle isn't allowed in shooting matches simply because it removes the human element, and the human element is a large part of what the game is about. Its not about who can build the best shooting machine, its about how well the shooter can do with the best rifles he can shoot.

Like auto racing, its not just about who has the best car, its also about who is the best driver.
And if that "shooting machine" were not highly accurate, it would not be illegal. No need to outlaw stuff that can't compete, unless it's unsafe. Its' lack of ability to compete will take care of it being used.
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Old August 23, 2021, 09:25 PM   #6
Bart B.
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What about the unlimited class in benchrest?

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-of-precision/

Last edited by Bart B.; August 23, 2021 at 09:30 PM.
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Old August 24, 2021, 06:36 AM   #7
old roper
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You don't need rail gun.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-nbrsa-record/
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Old August 24, 2021, 12:45 PM   #8
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Especially when you are lucky.
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Old August 24, 2021, 03:13 PM   #9
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Even I could probably set a world record group with a laser beam.
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Old August 24, 2021, 03:43 PM   #10
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In contrast to how tiny a single 5-shot group can be, check out the IBS and NBRSA aggregate records for several 10-shot groups. You'll see the average of several groups but remember that the largest group is much bigger than the average.

People have built mechanical rests that hold rifles much like we do. They let the rifle recoil normally then are pushed back to the firing position. Military teams used them to test 30 caliber semiautomatic match grade rifles and ammo. I've seen 7.62 Garand 600 yard 20-shot test groups of 4 inches with handloads.

Last edited by Bart B.; August 24, 2021 at 10:04 PM.
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Old August 24, 2021, 09:55 PM   #11
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What about the unlimited class in benchrest?

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-of-precision/
That's why in post 3 I said "most classes."
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Old August 26, 2021, 01:09 AM   #12
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Bench?

Quote:
I always shoot free resting. If you shoot clamped down, how do you do that in the field?
To duplicate field results, you must get away from the bench.
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Old August 27, 2021, 10:36 PM   #13
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To duplicate field results, you must get away from the bench.
That's why I sight in hunting rifles off-hand standing without artificial support.

Don't have to hit dead center on the target; just where the shot is called.
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Old August 28, 2021, 08:32 AM   #14
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Field results

Yep. Despite that, i rarely see anyone at the range assume a field position. It is always the bench.
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Old August 29, 2021, 09:34 PM   #15
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FWIW, my Marlin lever guns prefer to have my hand around the forearm when I'm using a rest. The other rifles, not so much.
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Old August 31, 2021, 05:52 PM   #16
reynolds357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbqncigars View Post
FWIW, my Marlin lever guns prefer to have my hand around the forearm when I'm using a rest. The other rifles, not so much.
Seems to be true with the Ruger #1s I have shot as well.
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Old August 31, 2021, 06:56 PM   #17
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If you are asking if the rifle action will shoot more accurately in a clamped fixture than in an unclamped rest I suggest you look to ways the high end rifles that send test targets to show accuracy shoot their test targets.

My Les Baer Super Varmint .223 is guaranteed to shoot 5-round groups under 0.5 inches at 100 yards with factory ammo.
It came with a test target with two 5-round groups shot with 77 grain Federal GMM SMKs shot from a 'fixture'. The two groups measured 0.105 and 0.121 inches.

Shooting from a Sinclair F-class bipod and a Protektor rear bag, I managed to shoot hand loads that averaged as small as .202.
The top 10 loads averaged 0.253 and the top 25 loads averaged 0.275.
I never got factory ammo to shoot a group better than 0.308.

My buddy bought a .308 Les Baer Monolith and it came with a test target with two groups both just under 0.1 inches. He also never got close to that with his best hand loads.

You can see why they use a clamped fixture to eliminate 'shooter induced variations'.

As for front and rear studs effecting the accuracy, I find that the rear sling stud will cause problems if it bounces on the rear bag, so I remove them when shooting from a bench.
I use the front sling stud to attach my F-Class bipod so it adds stability instead of causing inaccuracy.
If I used a front rest that the stud might recoil against, I would remove the front stud too.
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Old September 1, 2021, 01:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Yep. Despite that, i rarely see anyone at the range assume a field position. It is always the bench.
To accurately shoot a free standing rifle takes a lot of skill. Most of us do not have that.

My goal when I was hunting was to get 2 to 4 inches (depended on what caliber) above center with 3 shots rested.

Of all my game takes, none was ever free standing. Sometimes a tree, sometimes a kneel, once over the hood of a pickup (yes I was a bad boy and shot on from the road)

Huge difference between standing on a firing line all relaxed and working your way through the woods on a stalk.

My brother once shot a moose from up in a tree (yes that is extreme but it was situation specific)

So off the bench tells you the gun is sighted in, what group size you will get at best and who knows what position you will actually be in shooting game? So nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with it.

The hoot is now I am doing nothing but target shooting, I have hunters look at my groups and drool.

Hey guy, this is a game, its not what you are doing (you can always tell the hunters). Do you get your Moose or Caribou each year (usually yes).

Good deal, hunting is not bench rest shooting. Too many other factors go into a successful hunt and Dale Tubbs class shooting is the bottom of the list.

Its your stalk, knowing the area, knowing the animals, stalking in the woods as needed, having a decent camping setup if you are out extended that leaves you dry, decently fed and watered.

The only free standing shot I made was technically a hit. Unfortunately the hit split the hide above the backbone and did nothing other than to confirm I had left and right nailed.

I missed because I held higher than I had sighted the gun in for when I should have put the aim high on the animal and not above it. Dumb me (yes in the end with a lucky shot from my brother and a long chase through the woods we got it - it turned into a saga and a great story)
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Old September 4, 2021, 08:33 AM   #19
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Depends on why I am at the range.

As stated above, clamped down proves accuracy of rifle and ammo.
When sighting in a scope, I want to rifle secure, to ensure scope and bore are aligned.
When working up a load, clamped or a solid rest.
When preparing myself for hunting season, scope is sighted, ammo is ready, I shoot mostly from standing position. Practice allows / prepares me to maintain minute-of-deer groups, shooting at steel gongs, not paper. I care little about the group, just hits.
When in the field, a tree or any type of rest ensures a better shot, but confidence in making the shot free standing is important to me.


I agree, though, I see very few (zero) shooting off hand or standing, at the range.
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Old September 4, 2021, 02:09 PM   #20
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I've never seen a rifle whose bore axis points directly above the LOS to a point on target equal to bullet drop plus sight height above the bore.

That doesn't happen until the bullet leaves the barrel.
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Old September 4, 2021, 04:26 PM   #21
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It’s been years since I shot a deer or pig offhand, though squirrels, armadillos, and skunks are dispatched (or missed) offhand. I sight in rifles, work up accuracy loads, and shoot paper for fun off a bench and sandbags. Once I have the level of accuracy I want, I’m good. My confidence level in shooting offhand is pretty high, but it will never be as good as shooting braced on a tree, post, or whatever. If the offhand shot opportunity is out past 100 yards or so, I’ll usually pass. I don’t need the meat that bad.

All that said, I have a Tikka T1X in 22lr. Great trigger and scope, and I can really shoot that jewel offhand. I could never shoot my 9422 or 39A as well.
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Old September 6, 2021, 05:32 PM   #22
reynolds357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkgael View Post
To duplicate field results, you must get away from the bench.
That would all depend on how you shoot in the field. My box blinds have front and rear rests(if needed).
My other stands have shots less than 100. Assuming animal is standing still, if you miss under 100, you might want to devote some serious time to the range.
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Old September 12, 2021, 02:42 PM   #23
Bart B.
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It doesn't take many marksmanship skills to shoot precisely from a bench.
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Old September 12, 2021, 04:39 PM   #24
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Quote:
It doesn't take many marksmanship skills to shoot precisely from a bench.
It does for me, I must suck.
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