Tell me what you think ...350 Legend hunting rifle

[dahermit]

Originally Posted by Txhillbilly

The 350 Legend is a solution for a non-existent problem.

Here in Michigan's zone 3 requirement of a straight wall case if you want to use a rifle in the shotgun zone, the .350 Legend may very well be interpreted as a solution to a problem.

[mehavey]

Originally Posted by Txhillbilly
The 350 Legend is a solution for a non-existent problem.

People keep saying that...
But they've been regularly saying that every time a new cartridge has come out.

[Wildernesshunter]

I dove in and hope the Kool Aid is good!

I needed and wanted a compact little brush gun, as my property is a thicket of Oak Brush with abundant wildlife in the Western US. We purchased the property 6 months ago and through the fall months, Black Bear have have been a nuisance (getting into trash and breaking into out-buildings), and according to the local Fish and Game officer.... way over populated. There is also a good group of Mule Deer and I will be hunting them the fall of 2022.

Anyway, after some reading and research.... I just wanted a "cool", little 350 Legend.

I opted for the Savage 110 Switchback from Sportsman Warehouse.

I mounted a 1.25-4.5x26 and love the look. Can't wait to get her on the range to sight in and enjoy.

I purchased 7 boxes of the $16 a box, Winchester 145gr ammo to break it in and get it 'rough' sighted. I also purchased 5 boxes of Winchester 180gr soft tip for hunting. I will be purchasing dies and after I run through those 140 rounds... I will be reloading that brass.

[MarkCO]

I keep pondering it. I'd like to play with it, but I don't need it, want it, nor will I use it. I should probably sell my die set to eliminate the temptation.

[stagpanther]

Somehow people take it on faith this is a big game cartridge--it's not, and I think it's an exaggeration that it "vastly exceeds 30-30." At its core IMO it's basically a slightly aerodynamic/heavy 9mm that you are lobbing out (it has a "peculiar" trajectory so you have to be aware of that too in relation to what the short point blank range is) there but must be aware of how fast its ballistics go over the cliff past 100 yds. My axis 2 though is a great heavy woods close range gun--ideal for new shooters or the PC only states.

[HiBC]

Generally speaking, if a cartridge will punch a hole through the vital organs of whatever you are hunting,it has potential. If we can cast or buy a bullet that will perform at the velocity the cartridge will deliver,all the better.
Maximum suitable range? Folks get by with bows,handguns,muzzle loaders,and shotgun slugs.
Some folks hunt by getting close.

Cartridge rifle folks have been putting meat on the table since the late 19th Century. They didn't have ballistic tables,chronographs, etc.

They took game with 38-40,44-40,25-20,32-20 etc.

Of course the 350 Legend will do for a big game cartridge. Apparently part of its niche is about the straight wall cartridge. I take it that it fits in the AR-15.

Its not a cartridge I have any use for. I like AR's,but I prefer a bolt gun for hunting. I don't have cartridge restrictions to deal with.

I'd be more likely to pursue a 6.5 Grendel, but thats not even on my list. If I did,it would likely be on a Howa mini bolt.

Apparently the 350 Legend works.(feed and function) I have no experience.

For myself,a concern with untapered straight cartridges, is "going around the corner" feeding up from a magazine into a chamber.

Apparently, the 350 Legend works out.. I'd look at that before jumping in.

[stagpanther]

For myself,a concern with untapered straight cartridges, is "going around the corner" feeding up from a magazine into a chamber.

Apparently, the 350 Legend works out.. I'd look at that before jumping in.

It can jam pretty easily in an AR if the magazine isn't just right, even CMMG's can have issues as the cartridges are stacked and swell the magazine, that's what happens with the 5 round ones I have (my state allows hunting only with 5 cartridges or less if a semi like AR). Some cartridges might be short around 2" or so.

[std7mag]

Personally, it's burning my biscuits that while looking for for a 280AI, or 7mm-08 the only thing my LGS has is 6.5 Manbun or 350 "Legend".

I see not much that the "Legend" can do that the 357 Mag, or 357 Max can't, aside from not having a rim.
Heck, for that matter, there isn't much difference between it and 30 Carbine. (A severely under rated cartridge)

As far as building a rifle that you want, i say go for it!

[mehavey]

Heck, for that matter, there isn't much difference between
it and 30 Carbine. (A severely under rated cartridge)

Other than twice the bullet weight at the same 2,000 fps.

(But I'd better be quiet or Stag will get mad at me)

[stagpanther]

(But I'd better be quiet or Stag will get mad at me)

LOL--actually it's a good thing we disagree and provide different points of view. ; )

[std7mag]

Twice the bullet weight?
Wondering where your finding 220gr .357"( -0.003") bullets?

Most people tend to shoot in the 125-135gr bullets in the 357 Mag.
Although, you can finnd the 158gr.
Still, only 48gr heavier than the typical 110gr 30 Carbine bullet.

As for the design of the 350 Legend, i'm at a loss as to what the heck they were thinking!!
0.357" -0.003" for bullet, but 0.355" groove diameter??

[mehavey]

Twice the bullet weight?
Wondering where your finding 220gr .357"( -0.003") bullets?

Easy (well.... mostly )



Note I'm also running 0.358" here.
Note also the low (less than 44,000) pressure w/ Norma-200(magic dust)

(My 245gr SAECO #352 running at 1,800 is the family slowpoke)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
While I'm thinking about it . . .



It's not a perfect cartridge set-up to be sure.
But it's 'good enough' within design restrictions.

.


.

[stagpanther]

Chrono that same bullet at 150 yds or more--I bet it jumps overboard by that time. It has a similar rainbow trajectory to a 9mm--curious coincidence, since that's essentially what it is.

I notice your pressure estimate is derived from Quickload (QL)? I'd take that with a grain of salt since I'm guessing your start pressures are going to be elevated when using jacketed larger diameter bullets.

[mehavey]

Chrono that same bullet at 150 yds or more--I bet it jumps overboard by that time.

But so does every cast bullet, save perhaps that Jacketed Speer. (And I haven't seen 180, 200, or 240gr 9mm's)

In the case of my (Tom Elliss') 180gr ACC-36-180LG -- which starts at 2074 fps/Muzzle -- the LABRADAR's velocity at 90 is still over 1,700 measured. That measured 0.182 Ballistic Coefficient means point-blank aimpoint ± 4" out to 215 yards with a cast bullet.


Now if I run that Speer 180* (BC .236)... it's down to ± 3½" out to 215 yds
It would seem "good enough" is once again... (drumroll please) "good enough" when viewed practically.

The Speer, by the way, calculates out at only 46ksi -- 86% of theoretical MAX.
I keep things low (calculated) for a safe margin-of-error reason.
*(BTW again: I size that Speer down to 0.356 to load it -- no big deal in a Lee Sizer using sizing lube)


The Legend has picked up 60-year old Charlie Brown as its theme song:
"Why is ev'ry body aw-ways pikin' on me?"


.

[std7mag]

So, let me get this right...
Your running a 0.358" bullet through a 0.355" swager barrel?

What do you think is happening to your bullet?

Your elongating it.
But not only that, by doing so the elongation isn't over the entire base area of the bullet.
Your creating a ridge around the circumfrence of the base.
Raising pressures as you do so. Note the velocity for a 16" barrel.

Things just don't seem right to me about your predicted results.

Paging @Unclenick!
Could we get a second Quickload oppinion?

[stagpanther]

means point-blank aimpoint ± 4"

means point-blank aimpoint ± 4"*2

[mehavey]

So, let me get this right...
Your running a 0.358" bullet through a 0.355" swager barrel?

No... I'm running a pre-sized 0.356" bullet through the barrel.
(Read the 2nd-to-last paragraph op cit)

And no... there's no ridge created on the bullet base with that level of reduction -- any more when one sizes a cast bullet by 0.002".

OOC#1: Are you a caster ?

OOC#2:

Things just don't seem right to me about your predicted results

Those aren't just predicted results, Those are actual measured (velocity) results. Note the (starting) burn rate (Ba=0.588) is adjusted to match measured velocity, which drives pressure results to accommodate total work under the pressure (force) curve while shoving the bullet down the barrel.
(Work being Force x Distance)

OOC#3: 180gr @ 2,060/70fps is what "other" internet sources are reporting for 16" Ruger Americans firing Winchester commercial 180s

OOC#4: I've run more than a dozen reloads on the subset of these combo's above to judge primer pocket condition changes that would indicate pressures much over 55ksi. So far, still good.


QuickLoad is self-admittedly quirky w/ straight wall as a predictor before the fact -- which is why you adjust internal burn characteristics after getting actual test velocities to approach the real internal ballistics being generated.


.

[mehavey]

means point-blank aimpoint ± 4"*2

Nope. " ± 4 " means ± 4.


(but you knew that )

[GeauxTide]

I should have reported in my prior post that I bought a Bushmaster 450 AR when they came out. A 250gr FTX at 2200 from 16" that puts 5 into 1/2" and kicks like a 20ga shotgun. At the other end, I bought a 6.5 Grendel and a 300 HAM'R.

[stagpanther]

point-blank aimpoint ± 4" out to 215 yards

OK--so I know from having shot LOTS of 350 legend this is a bit of a stretch--and not everyone has access to your one-off loads. So, I decided to have a bit of fun today and load 10 cartridges of 180 gr powerpoints since they are still the best all-around bullets for the legend IMO. I used Hodgdon's maximum charge of 24 grs for win 296 @ 2.11" COL--what I believe is a VERY close approximation of most people are going to be able to buy for an off-the-shelf hunting cartridge. This was shot through my 20" faxon barrel on an AR--I know my savage bolt gun would probably do better--but hey--we are talking AR's here and that's what they market them at in addition to the bolt world.

Conditions were in the 20's with a slight crosswind of about 13 mph--which in Maine terms is about as close to calm as it gets. Tomorrow's forecast is warmer--but winds up to 60 mph. A perfect hunting day IMO and I think very good conditions for simulation. I took ten shots starting at 20 yds which I think is a very close approximation of the near-zero and starting with 50 yds shot 25 yd increments out to the much-acclaimed distance of 250 yds for the legend. My zero for the Burris RT3 3x fixed prism was set at about 130 yds which I found to be very good for maximum MPBR without adjusting the holdover. The last ammo I had shot was a much lighter 145 gr bullet, thus the lower impacts from POA.

All shots were taken using the center of the target dot as POA. Notice that the shots out to 100 yds are quite tight, and realistically speaking for the energy delivered I would consider this the true MPBR for the legend. After that, both the energy and trajectory deteriorated rapidly--the last shot at 250 yds predictably hit the ground at 10 yds in front of the target.





Most "reasonable" assessments on MPBR that I've seen are not based on your POA being able to pinpoint the exact center of the "kill-zone"--thus often conservatively it's considered 3" +/-. That's what I use for 300 wby magnum which has a far superior ballistics profile to the legend.

[Pumpkin]

How about a resurrected CZ 527 Carbine in 350.

[mehavey]

use for 300 wby magnum which has a far superior ballistics...

I do so love it when you talk dirty Stag
...and I'll spot you that 70fps
and that OTS is close.

I'll run the 180 Speer load (mine with Norma-200) in the 22" Win XPR and see what happens out to a 100.
Beyond to 300 will have to wait until it quits snowing here, and climbs above 19°

[stinkeypete]

I've shot big deer with .357 Magnum in handgun and carbine. I thought it was too little.
I've shot big deer with .44 Casull in handgun and carbine. I felt like I was hit with a brick, it was too much and rattled my rivets. Deer went down hard.
I've shot big deer with .44 Magnum handgun and carbine. Deer went down just as hard, it seemed.
I've shot big deer with 30-30 and that worked too. So did 30-06 but it was overkill. 20 ga slugs are too expensive to practice with. Punkin balls work, too.

It's fun to look at wildcat cartridges and ballistics graphs but that all goes out the window in the field. What matters hunting is "does your game go down hard and quickly or leave an enormous short blood trail." In the end, I learned that expecting my marksmanship to be perfect in the woods is a foolish and disrespectful attitude. What I can do sometimes isn't the same as what I can do most times. I want the odds in my favor.

This is for Wisconsin. Big deer, shots under 100 yards.

A Ruger bolt action in 44 magnum would wallop anything. Reload down if it pleases you. Start with a big hole.

[Wildernesshunter]

Fantastic post, Stag..... Thanks for the data and pic.

You've helped me make a decision. I will be sighting in for 100 yards. I am going to the range this week and am eager to shoot my little gun.



........

[stagpanther]

Like stinkypete says we need to have responsibility for the realities of what we are shooting. 100 yds the legend would be a great thick woods soft skin rifle IMO--no way I'd consider anything beyond 150--if that. But that's me, and I don't claim to be an especially good shooter.