The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 23, 2021, 08:53 PM   #26
rodfac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3,433
A good point made by Shadow. But I'll add that a handgun, used with one hand, leaves the other hand free for some useful chores: light switches, door knobs, window drapes, PHONE DIALING, I'm sure you get the picture...and I'll also add that potential hearing loss in a defensive shooting is near the bottom of my worry list. Fumbling around in a dark bedroom looking for your ear protectors makes no sense whatsoever. YMMv...Rod
__________________
Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.
rodfac is offline  
Old May 23, 2021, 08:56 PM   #27
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 11,391
9mm instead of 5.56 for HD

Keep in mind that decibels are a logarithmic scale. An increase of 3 dB represents a doubling of the sound intensity, even if an increase of 10dB is needed to perceive a sound as twice as loud. The point being even small decreases in dB can be significant.

http://www.sounddeadsteel.com/what-is-a-decibel.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is online now  
Old May 24, 2021, 09:43 AM   #28
Shadow9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,919
True. But at those levels, indoors, it's guaranteed instant significant hearing damage with either being up that high in the dB range.

Only reasonable way to preserve your hearing in this case is to put plugs in or muffs on asap. Suppressors are cool but cost prohibitive and can raise additional legal issues if used is a defensive situation
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.
Shadow9mm is offline  
Old May 24, 2021, 09:54 AM   #29
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 3,336
A shotgun with slugs in case you need to stop an engine block or attackers in armor, but well down the list from primary.

A rifle caliber with a suppressor is a good option to have if needed.

A pistol is smaller, more mobile.

All of the above have advantages and disadvantages that are exacerbated and or mitigated by the user, the attacker(s), the environment. To me, a PCC in 9mm with a suppressor and a light mitigates many issues and is, for me, what I consider to be a primary HD weapon. Both the wife and I have one and the boys can both shoot them as well. I have the other three options at the ready as well. The only downside there is possibly overchoicing (is that a word?) but I practice and train regularly to mitigate that as well.
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us
MarkCO is offline  
Old May 24, 2021, 10:24 AM   #30
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 11,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow9mm View Post
True. But at those levels, indoors, it's guaranteed instant significant hearing damage with either being up that high in the dB range.

Only reasonable way to preserve your hearing in this case is to put plugs in or muffs on asap. Suppressors are cool but cost prohibitive and can raise additional legal issues if used is a defensive situation

Yeah I agree. I have electronic muffs next to the firearms in my home. In the event I have the time to put them on I do. They allow me to hear better than I can without. I have been present when firearms were discharged inside standard sized rooms without hearing protection and while I didn’t find it dazed me it did mess with my short term hearing in addition to cumulative damage. I’d like to be able to hear if/when police are arriving and the electronic hearing protection is part of that.
TunnelRat is online now  
Old May 25, 2021, 03:40 PM   #31
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 2,166
Oh boy, lots of strange speculation in this thread...
Anything over 140dB will cause hearing damage, according to OSHA. That is pretty much every modern firearm without a suppressor. Those arguing that a 12ga SBS is quieter than a .223 AR-15...what have you been smoking?

9x19 out of an 8in barrel is respectable, but the terminal ballistics are definitely not as good as a .223. The wound channels and ft-lbs of delivered energy are usually much greater with the rifle round. Using 00buck or slugs at close range, the 12ga reigns supreme for wound channel and energy, in this comparison (at the cost of recoil, limited capacity, and being loud).

Using a suppressor and/or ear pro is a better answer than caliber changes, imo. That said, you can do both.
raimius is offline  
Old May 25, 2021, 06:48 PM   #32
IZZY
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2000
Location: Florida
Posts: 934
Quote:
Oh boy, lots of strange speculation in this thread...
Anything over 140dB will cause hearing damage, according to OSHA. That is pretty much every modern firearm without a suppressor. Those arguing that a 12ga SBS is quieter than a .223 AR-15...what have you been smoking?

9x19 out of an 8in barrel is respectable, but the terminal ballistics are definitely not as good as a .223. The wound channels and ft-lbs of delivered energy are usually much greater with the rifle round. Using 00buck or slugs at close range, the 12ga reigns supreme for wound channel and energy, in this comparison (at the cost of recoil, limited capacity, and being loud).

Using a suppressor and/or ear pro is a better answer than caliber changes, imo. That said, you can do both.
I guess i have been smoking my ears.

I have fired .223, 9mm ( handgun and Carbine) and one time a light sport load 12Ga to kill a Water Moccasin...of the three .223 w/o earmuffs was the worst. ( I don't generally do that, but on rare occasions....and, I am not counting the aforementioned time when us 3 brothers shot full 00 buck with just cotton wool in our ears, that would be cheating... )

Otherwise, I agree with you, EAR MUFFS please!


The OP Willie already got the SBR / NFA permit to put a stock on the MP-5 clone, taking it to the next level and getting paperwork for a Suppressor be handy indeed. Might need to re-zero the carbine w/ a suppressor...

here is a link on gelatin tests from Handguns at 100 Yards:

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/h...-at-100-yards/
IZZY is offline  
Old May 27, 2021, 08:31 AM   #33
Pistoler0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2019
Location: Conifer, CO
Posts: 569
I am curious about whether 45 ACP entered your consideration for HD.

45 ACP is a tad quieter (about 3dB) than 9mm, and even more so when out of a carbine. I once forgot to don my hearing protection when shooting my 45 ACP carbine outside, and to my surprise the blast wasn't that bad (although I wouldn't want to repeat it).

Also 45 ACP being fatter and slower has a tad less risk of overpenetration.
__________________
Life is simply an inter-temporal problem of constrained optimization.

Last edited by Pistoler0; May 27, 2021 at 08:41 AM.
Pistoler0 is offline  
Old May 28, 2021, 01:48 PM   #34
Willie Lowman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Location: Uh-Hi-O
Posts: 2,827
I had not personally considered .45. I only own one .45, a Colt 1911. I have thousands of rounds of 9mm and already have a 9mm SBR.

.45 does have things going for it but switching to it would require obtaining ammo (in this market?) and possibly a new gun.
__________________
"9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens
Willie Lowman is offline  
Old May 28, 2021, 07:12 PM   #35
Siggy-06
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,052
I wouldn't want to shoot a 12 guage in a 12x12 room, even with plugs in. 9mm is my in home defense choice, 5.56 for outside. And just a tip, if you have to fire a weapon from inside your vehicle for some reason, roll the windows down first if possible, your ears will thank you.
__________________
Flicks just like a lighter, just a different kind of fire.
Siggy-06 is offline  
Old May 29, 2021, 04:07 AM   #36
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 2,166
Quote:
I have fired .223, 9mm ( handgun and Carbine) and one time a light sport load 12Ga to kill a Water Moccasin...of the three .223 w/o earmuffs was the worst. ( I don't generally do that, but on rare occasions.
Yeah, there is a difference between unpleasant and damaging. The most unpleasant thing with firearms I've seen was standing next to a guy firing an 8in barrel SBR in .223 with a muzzle brake inside a shoot house hallway. The concussion was nauseating. That said a guy firing a 12ga under an overhang before I got my ear muffs on probably did more damage.
raimius is offline  
Old May 29, 2021, 06:55 PM   #37
Cosmodragoon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2013
Location: Northeastern US
Posts: 1,829
In many defensive scenarios, there either isn't time or you don't have hearing protection handy. Pretty much anything is going to damage your hearing, especially indoors. It's a risk most of us choose to live with, given the hopeful rarity of needing to defend life or limb.

For home defense, a suppressor is a good idea if the absurd legal challenges are worth it to you. I'd probably agree with the folks who recommend .45acp for this.

Otherwise, I choose a PCC for home defense. Honestly, 9mm from 8-16" of barrel is probably fine for most needs. I'd be happier with .40 S&W but despite some actual gains in destructive power, that happiness is probably more emotional than practical at the end of the day. I haven't taken deer with either but I know both work well on coyotes.
Cosmodragoon is offline  
Old June 9, 2021, 03:36 PM   #38
jackstrawIII
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2016
Location: Upstate NY.
Posts: 791
Quote:
5.56 is approximately 165db
9mm is approximately 160db, even with subsonic loads as I understand it.

Changing your entire platform to save 5db is kind of a moot point IMHO.
This is wayyyy over simplifying it. Having shot both a 16" barred 223 and a 16" barrel 9mm... the difference is astounding. A 9mm through a 16" barrel is MUCH quieter.

It's even noticeably quieter than a 9mm out of a pistol.

This is my (non scientific, based on experience) 1-10 scale:

223 from 16" rifle barrel - 10/10 LOUDDDDD
9mm from 4" pistol barrel - 6/10
9mm from 16" rifle barrel - 3/10

The real world difference is dramatic. Don't let the "numbers" lie to you.
__________________
In God we trust.
jackstrawIII is offline  
Old June 9, 2021, 03:43 PM   #39
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 11,391
9mm instead of 5.56 for HD

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackstrawIII View Post
This is wayyyy over simplifying it. Having shot both a 16" barred 223 and a 16" barrel 9mm... the difference is astounding. A 9mm through a 16" barrel is MUCH quieter.

It's even noticeably quieter than a 9mm out of a pistol.

This is my (non scientific, based on experience) 1-10 scale:

223 from 16" rifle barrel - 10/10 LOUDDDDD
9mm from 4" pistol barrel - 6/10
9mm from 16" rifle barrel - 3/10

The real world difference is dramatic. Don't let the "numbers" lie to you.

The numbers aren’t really lying. 5 dB is a significant difference as I mentioned in post 27. Both may damage your hearing, but less hearing damage and less blast still has benefits.

As a note, I have been exposed to a handgun firing indoors without hearing protection on three separate occasions. The first case was a smaller room (say 10’x15’), the second case was larger, and the third larger still. The first two cases were with +P ammunition and the last case was in a room with concrete walls (a fair amount of reverb). All cases were with 9mm. My overall hearing is still very good. I suffer from hyperacusis with certain sounds, but on a daily basis I’m generally fine (whether that changes as I get older remains to be seen). I have been present when rifles were fired indoors. Even with hearing protection it was not pleasant and I don’t think my current hearing would be what I have mentioned had those shots been with rifles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by TunnelRat; June 9, 2021 at 08:12 PM.
TunnelRat is online now  
Old June 9, 2021, 07:54 PM   #40
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,067
I have had the occasion to train ( hand to hand) against a foe while I am armed with a rifle. There are many inherent issues with trying to retain control over a rifle in such a circumstance. If it comes to moving around, being proceeded by a length of barrel is not a good quality. In most struggles where the foe grabbed my barrel, I was forced to abandon the rifle and attempt to transition to a secondary weapon. I find that there are several techniques of retaining a pistol that do seem to work well but I find the opposite is true in regards to retaining a rifle in a struggle. In most cases I came to the realization rather quickly that I was not going to get back working control of the rifle. Using a sling even made the problem worse as it was simply a lasso to be used against me. As I have said many many times.. shooting a gun well and fighting well with a gun are very different things.

Many of the issues are mitigated when you have aid of a team or other defenders. As a lone defender of my home, I want a very wieldy weapon. The rifle aint it.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; June 9, 2021 at 08:01 PM.
FireForged is offline  
Old July 11, 2021, 10:43 AM   #41
Shadow9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,919
You ever come to any decision on how you wanted to proceed?
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.
Shadow9mm is offline  
Old July 11, 2021, 01:32 PM   #42
Willie Lowman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Location: Uh-Hi-O
Posts: 2,827


For now, yes.
__________________
"9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens
Willie Lowman is offline  
Old July 11, 2021, 01:34 PM   #43
Shadow9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Lowman View Post


For now, yes.
That's a gorgeous setup
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.
Shadow9mm is offline  
Old July 11, 2021, 08:52 PM   #44
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,067
doesnt 3db double the sound intensity? I think that 5 db may be rather significant no matter how you look at it.

I am not a proponent of using rifles as HD weapons for a whole host of reason but I would not call a concern over sound pressure to be off-base. I would suspect that sound pressure inside 4 walls can be problematic at high levels.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old July 12, 2021, 08:22 AM   #45
101combatvet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2011
Posts: 476
Yup, based on many comments, people like to go for that Hollywood style of home defense against zombies.

Tactical shotgun with:

#00 buckshot throws eight or nine balls. (Some Magnum loads contain 12-15 balls—with harrowing recoil.)
#1 buckshot holds 16
#4 buckshot 24 to 27

Hitting the zombie is more critical than your hearing.
__________________
Special Operations Combat Veteran
Gunsmith, BS, MFA - I can outsmart you!
Competitive Shooter - and out shoot you!
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor [8 Courses]
101combatvet is offline  
Old July 12, 2021, 09:20 AM   #46
FAS1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2010
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 541
If I had chickens and coyotes were a problem I would probably use an AR for that. I would still keep my G17 for home defense and it is easy to secure next to me when sleeping. Also, as mentioned above, it might be handy to have a spare hand available, especially if kids in the home. Of course I wouldn't argue that the MP5 couldn't fill both those roles for you.
__________________
Glenn
FAS1 SAFE
FAS1 is offline  
Old July 12, 2021, 10:55 AM   #47
101combatvet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2011
Posts: 476
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
I have had the occasion to train ( hand to hand) against a foe while I am armed with a rifle. There are many inherent issues with trying to retain control over a rifle in such a circumstance. If it comes to moving around, being proceeded by a length of barrel is not a good quality. In most struggles where the foe grabbed my barrel, I was forced to abandon the rifle and attempt to transition to a secondary weapon. I find that there are several techniques of retaining a pistol that do seem to work well but I find the opposite is true in regards to retaining a rifle in a struggle. In most cases I came to the realization rather quickly that I was not going to get back working control of the rifle. Using a sling even made the problem worse as it was simply a lasso to be used against me. As I have said many many times.. shooting a gun well and fighting well with a gun are very different things.

Many of the issues are mitigated when you have aid of a team or other defenders. As a lone defender of my home, I want a very wieldy weapon. The rifle aint it.
While I can understand training situations with someone attempting to grab your rifle, I can't understand a situation where you are ending up in a wrestling match over your rifle. If you failed to shoot someone trying to grab your firearm, you screwed up and probably need to find another line of work.
__________________
Special Operations Combat Veteran
Gunsmith, BS, MFA - I can outsmart you!
Competitive Shooter - and out shoot you!
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor [8 Courses]
101combatvet is offline  
Old July 12, 2021, 06:09 PM   #48
JustJake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2020
Posts: 241
The Correct Answer is ...

... 5.56, suppressed.

Everything else is junk in da trunk.
__________________
I use the Jake Brake every chance I get.
Don't care if it annoys you.
Hear me now?!
JustJake is offline  
Old July 12, 2021, 07:59 PM   #49
101combatvet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2011
Posts: 476
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJake View Post
... 5.56, suppressed.

Everything else is junk in da trunk.
Or a possible lawsuit depending on where you live.
__________________
Special Operations Combat Veteran
Gunsmith, BS, MFA - I can outsmart you!
Competitive Shooter - and out shoot you!
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor [8 Courses]
101combatvet is offline  
Old July 12, 2021, 11:07 PM   #50
kenny53
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2015
Location: My back yard
Posts: 884
I carry M&P 9mm all day and when downstairs watching TV it is my go to HD gun. At night when I wander upstairs for the night HD changes to a M&P 45 loaded with 185gr +p HP. It works for me.
kenny53 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11724 seconds with 8 queries