Red army 9mm

[Shadow9mm]

I generally avoid steel cased amno. I have personally seen a glock and a HK both with fired casings stuck in the chamber. I also reload so shooting steel does not make sense for me.

Yesterday I took a co-worker to the range and he had a box of red army 115g 9mm, steel cased. He said that's all they had. I was not super happy with it but decided to go ahead as he had driven an hour.

4th gen G17
First round goes bang, but weak ejection, no big deal
Second round goes click, light primer strike. Fires the 2nd time, not the end of the world
Third round goes click, slide won't open. Take it to a table and jam the muzzle against it. It opens up 2nd try. Bullet in the casing, but the primer backed half way out. I'm guessing it went off but no powder and expanded the case just enough to make it stick.....


So, no more steel cased for me.... not doing it again.

[TunnelRat]

I’ve shot a fair amount of steel cased ammunition in both rifles and pistols, though most of that was through Soviet designs such as AKMs and Makarovs. I did shoot a fair amount as well through an HK 45C. With the 45C it functioned fine for a while, but what I found was the case never expanded fully in the chamber after firing. The end result was a fair amount of gases escaped around the case and back into the firing pin channel. The pistol became filthy and eventually stopped functioning.

My experience has been that not all steel cased ammunition is created equally. Red Army Standard, as you used here, I found to be some of the least accurate out of my AKMs. I personally have had better luck with Wolf, I think the QC is a bit better.

Since you don’t need to shoot steel cased ammunition as you reload, just keep not shooting steel cased ammunition. My experience is it can work, though in pistols I shoot brass these days unless I am shooting my Makarov.


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[Shadow9mm]

In my experience, steel cased, in guns designed for steel cased, ak, Mosin, Makarov, tokarov, etc. Work great with steel or brass. However guns designed for brass, generally don't like steel. Whether thats mild dislike or hard failures, they don't do well.

[TunnelRat]

I’ve used it in a number of non Soviet designs without too many failures albeit with more cleaning required. Certainly not as bad as what you described in your outing. If your description had been my experience I would have given up entirely unless I was teaching malfunction clearances.


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[Jim Watson]

I don't know if it is international trade or covidism, but there seems to be more and more variation in guns and ammo. This combination is fine, that one is junk.

[Bill DeShivs]

There are no guns "designed for steel cases."
The Soviet guns were designed to use standard ammunition. Steel cased ammunition was designed to be used in those guns, just like steel cased .45 ACP was designed to be used in 1911s in WW2.

[dogtown tom]

Bill DeShivs There are no guns "designed for steel cases."
The Soviet guns were designed to use standard ammunition. Steel cased ammunition was designed to be used in those guns, just like steel cased .45 ACP was designed to be used in 1911s in WW2.

This x1000

I wouldn't want any gun that could not operate with a wide variety of ammunition.

I shoot steel case Wolf, Tula, Barnaul in Colt AR's, Glocks, Colt 1911's, Beretta Cougars, and dozens of others.

In tens of thousands of rounds of .223, .45, 9x19 and .380 I've yet to experience an ammunition problem.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by dogtown tom

This x1000

I wouldn't want any gun that could not operate with a wide variety of ammunition.

I shoot steel case Wolf, Tula, Barnaul in Colt AR's, Glocks, Colt 1911's, Beretta Cougars, and dozens of others.

In tens of thousands of rounds of .223, .45, 9x19 and .380 I've yet to experience an ammunition problem.

Guess I have just been unlucky then. Because I have seen it 3 times now. The first 2 were 40 s&w with wolf, the other was the red army 9mm the other day.

Never had any issues with steel in sks, Mosin, or ak. I did test some tula in my ar years back, but I only fired 40rnds, no issues.

[jmr40]

These guys put the idea to a test using 223. They fired 10,000 rounds of Federal brass cased ammo and 30,000 rounds of steel cased ammo through AR's. 10,000 rounds each of Wolf, Tula, and Brown Bear.

In a nutshell the brass ammo out performed steel, but steel wasn't as bad as some claim.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bra...el-cased-ammo/

The summary:

Federal: 10,000 rounds, 0 malfunctions.
Brown Bear: 10,000 rounds, 9 malfunctions (5 stuck cases, 1 magazine-related failure to feed, 3 failures to fully cycle)
Wolf: 10,000 rounds, 15 malfunctions (stuck cases)
Tula: DNF (6,000 rounds in alternate carbine, 3 malfunctions)

Wolf and Brown Bear didn't do too bad, 24 failures in 20,000 rounds. Tula was more problematic.

The rifle barrels used with the steel cased ammo were worn out after 5000-6000 rounds, but that was due to the metal in the projectile jacket, not the steel case. The rifle used with copper jacketed Federal ammo was still usable after 10,000 rounds.

[mr bolo]

the only time steel cased caused a problem was shooting steel cased TULammo in a a S&W .38 Special revolver , the cases got stuck in the cylinder , needed to be tapped out

the cases didnt drop out easily , brass & aluminum worked fine

[eflyguy]

The ammo my daughter and I use for USPSA is brass-plated steel cased 9mm.

We've shot a fair few thousand rounds without issue. I have an XD, she has a G17.

[TruthTellers]

I've never shot Red Army before, but Wolf and Tula yes. No issues with them, however when I've shot them in Glocks it was using a Lone Wolf barrel.

[JJ45]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

I generally avoid steel cased amno. I have personally seen a glock and a HK both with fired casings stuck in the chamber. I also reload so shooting steel does not make sense for me.

Yesterday I took a co-worker to the range and he had a box of red army 115g 9mm, steel cased. He said that's all they had. I was not super happy with it but decided to go ahead as he had driven an hour.

4th gen G17
First round goes bang, but weak ejection, no big deal
Second round goes click, light primer strike. Fires the 2nd time, not the end of the world
Third round goes click, slide won't open. Take it to a table and jam the muzzle against it. It opens up 2nd try. Bullet in the casing, but the primer backed half way out. I'm guessing it went off but no powder and expanded the case just enough to make it stick.....


So, no more steel cased for me.... not doing it again.

To each his own and this has been your experience so....

As for me, I have four military Makarovs in 9X18

I have only one SKS now but have owned several in the past.

My son has a Mak and a Romanian SAR1 AK47 clone.

For the last 20 years we have shot thousands of rounds of steel cased ammo of various Eastern Bloc makes (Red Army, which is Polish, among them) and have had only one failure that I can remember that can be attributed to a bum cartridge, and this was a failure to fire not caused by a light primer strike.

Out of literally thousands of rounds ( and yes, we do keep records), one failure...I think we are getting our moneys worth

[JJ45]

Originally Posted by jmr40

These guys put the idea to a test using 223. They fired 10,000 rounds of Federal brass cased ammo and 30,000 rounds of steel cased ammo through AR's. 10,000 rounds each of Wolf, Tula, and Brown Bear.

In a nutshell the brass ammo out performed steel, but steel wasn't as bad as some claim.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bra...el-cased-ammo/

The summary:



Wolf and Brown Bear didn't do too bad, 24 failures in 20,000 rounds. Tula was more problematic.

The rifle barrels used with the steel cased ammo were worn out after 5000-6000 rounds, but that was due to the metal in the projectile jacket, not the steel case. The rifle used with copper jacketed Federal ammo was still usable after 10,000 rounds.

"Federal: 10,000 rounds, 0 malfunctions" ??? Where as the 3 steel case makes show multiple problems.

jmr40, I am not doubting your reporting but I am doubting " these guys" from Lucky Gunner.

Some weapons, like the Makarov, SKS, CZ82, AK variants and many other former Warsaw Pact weapons were supposedly designed around steel cased and bi-metal bullet ammo, much of which was corrosive. This might have something to do with it as I have had no problems with steel cased in these weapons.

Also, in most cases these weapons have chrome lined bores and chambers. This may or may not improve reliability and barrel life in these weapons....

I have also heard claims that the mild steel jacketed bullets from this ammo was actually less abrasive than copper...it depends on what you want to believe...I will admit one thing though, steel cased runs dirtier and stinks and might cause sticky extraction in some weapons due to the lacquer or polymer coatings on the cases....but in the weapons I shoot steel cased in, it doesn't cause any problems.

[gc70]

Originally Posted by JJ45

Some weapons, like the Makarov, SKS, CZ82, AK variants and many other former Warsaw Pact weapons were supposedly designed around steel cased and bi-metal bullet ammo, much of which was corrosive. This might have something to do with it as I have had no problems with steel cased in these weapons.

How does "designed around steel cased and bi-metal bullet ammo" work? Does that involve tighter or looser chamber dimensions or barrel bore size? Is there something special that prevents lacquer or polymer coatings from building up.

I think the concept is fascinating, but I can't even begin to imagine how it might really be done.

[Carl the Floor Walker]

I love Steel Case ammo. I can only imagine how much money it has saved me over the years. Right before the riots and Covid (two infectious disease's) came swooping down on America I was shooting Steel case ammo more than any other. I started shooting Steel case ammo back when we had the previous shortage (from another Disease) and never looked back. And even back then we had the same ole internet garbage of how bad it was, and in the meantime I was laughing the whole time. Just doing the usual study of the ammo back then proved the many Myths were just that, myths. And the proof is in the pudding as my guns which I still own are just fine.
Before the Disease's hit the Country I was buying Tula, Wolf etc. at $6.46 per box and buying case's of 9mm and that included shipping right to my front door step.
Thousands of rounds down range in a variety of guns. I thank the Gun Gods for steel ammo. I had the insight to stash it away for years. Never dreamed at the time it would actually be such a great investment.


[B]RED ARMY STANDARD- 9mm. Just found a box and guess what? It looks like Tula, has a Tula head stamp and the box say's manufactured in Russia TULA Cartridge WORKS.

[JJ45]

Originally Posted by gc70

How does "designed around steel cased and bi-metal bullet ammo" work? Does that involve tighter or looser chamber dimensions or barrel bore size? Is there something special that prevents lacquer or polymer coatings from building up.

I think the concept is fascinating, but I can't even begin to imagine how it might really be done.

The Makarovs, SKS, CZ82 that I own all have chrome lined bores AND chambers. This might have something to do with reliability and steel cases although the primary reason for a chrome bore is to be less susceptible to the ill effects of corrosive ammo.

Chrome bores and chambers are, in my experience, much easier to clean with non corrosive also.

My first SKS was a 1950 Tula before chrome was used to line SKS bores. It also had a spring loaded firing pin which they discontinued in later models. No matter what, I could never get the bore on this weaopon clean! Using all manner of technique and chemicals, the last patch would always come out dirty....I very foolishly sold this rifle as it is a somewhat rare variant of the SKS carbine.

I think your suspicion of looser tolerances in these weapons may also be relevant as they are military weapons designed first to function reliably in varied conditions, and to be able to function with ammo that might be wet, dirty, damaged, etc....you will also notice primer sealant as well as sealant at the case mouth, usually red but sometimes green. This used to be standard in all this ammo but has been discontinued in much of it lately.

This sealant is also a military precaution against solvents and possibly moisture in combat environments, etc.

[dogtown tom]

JJ45


Some weapons, like the Makarov, SKS, CZ82, AK variants and many other former Warsaw Pact weapons were supposedly designed around steel cased and bi-metal bullet ammo, much of which was corrosive. This might have something to do with it as I have had no problems with steel cased in these weapons.

Myth. There were designed to shoot any ammunition regardless of case material....as are most guns. During wartime, ammunition components are chosen more on what materials are available than what works best.

FYI all ammo used by the US during WWII was corrosive except .30 carbine.

The steel case has nothing to do with being corrosive, its the primer compound.

[44caliberkid]

I don’t use a lot of steel case, but I built an AR pistol in 45 acp and it loves Wolf 230 gr. FMJ, which was cheap before the current shortages and since high volume of fire is kinda the point with this gun, it works for me.

[wild cat mccane]

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bra...el-cased-ammo/

[Ignition Override]

Clean your chambers fairly often -- even when using brass-cased ammo.

There is far less chance of having any extraction issue. Steel is known to expand much less than brass, therefore more residue accumulates outside chambered, rigid steel cases.

This is not high school physics -- is it? It's not that difficult to do light cleaning.

Let's be very frank.
Much of the bias against Russian, or "Russian contract (Ukraine, Romanian)" ammo has Nothing to do with the ammo. It started with the Cold War, and is deceptive.

[Rob228]

I put 500 rounds of Winchester Forged steel case through my Shadow Systems MR920 L. It was dirty, but I didn't have any issues with the pistol. I did find that it would not feed with PMags, it only fed reliably with factory Glock magazines.

[2wheelwander]

I've never had an issue with steel case, though I usually avoid it.

[HistoryJunky]

Winchester Forged is probably the worst ammo I've ever shot.

Bad groupings and caused malfunctions in firearms that had never malfunctioned, even steel case.

Aside from that, I have shot plenty of steel case from Wolf and Tula. Neither has ever caused any malfunctions in either pistol or rifle.

It does seem to be a little bit underpowered in pistol cartridges though.

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