The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 21, 2021, 06:49 PM   #26
sevt_chevelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2013
Posts: 256
CZ screwed the pooch big time with that. I had to source my plates from France and Czech since none are available here in the states.

Dont' know on the P10 series but the shadow 2, one could darn near have screws 1/4 inch too long

The guys that prefer the 1st gen MP are competition guys.
Both are great
sevt_chevelle is offline  
Old July 21, 2021, 06:54 PM   #27
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 11,394
No 4" seems gen update proof in the immediate future...

I was able to get my plate and sights for my P10-C in a kit through CZ USA’s web store. I was on the notification list for 4-6 months I think? I was on travel a lot at the time and periodically I would land, check my email to see a notification that the plates were in stock, quickly open a browser, and then find them out of stock when I went to the page or have them run out of stock while I was checking out. Drove me nuts. I finally did get them. They do seem to be in stock on their web store these days at least. When I heard HK was going to do the same “buy the plate later” routine I knew they were going to have the same problem, and lo and behold they did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by TunnelRat; July 21, 2021 at 07:56 PM.
TunnelRat is online now  
Old July 21, 2021, 09:28 PM   #28
wild cat mccane
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 2,595
Glock also says on their website a tighter action and trigger along with a better barrel improve gen5 accuracy. This is straight from the Glock website I posted.

I haven't heard someone say their Gen5 is less accurate than the Gen4.

The point being, if there is an agreement on a 500 dollar gun being better with a new generation, it's kinda silly not to get the improvement (let's assume it's a mechanical improvement.
__________________
My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.
wild cat mccane is offline  
Old July 22, 2021, 04:35 AM   #29
eflyguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 1, 2021
Posts: 179
Nobody is arguing against the fact that all manufacturers make incremental improvements. Some people might notice a difference.

Just saying if you need something now, choose from what's available. If you don't need it now, or are determined to get a specific feature, then sure, wait until you're happy.
eflyguy is offline  
Old July 22, 2021, 11:35 AM   #30
JDBerg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 1,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by wild cat mccane:
Glock also says on their website a tighter action and trigger along with a better barrel improve gen5 accuracy. This is straight from the Glock website I posted.

I haven't heard someone say their Gen5 is less accurate than the Gen4.

The point being, if there is an agreement on a 500 dollar gun being better with a new generation, it's kinda silly not to get the improvement (let's assume it's a mechanical improvement.
My 19X has a smooth rolling break trigger that is almost as good as the APEX Action Enhancement Trigger package that I have on my Gen3 17. I do think that this APEX package is a bit light for my Gen3 19, but I do have the APEX firing pin block and connector, and a polished trigger bar on the 19. But I like the Wilson Combat Vickers Elite F.O. Front & Blind Battlesight Rear on the 17 and 19 better than the luminescent sights I had Glock install on the 19X a while back.

My take is that my Gen3 17 & 19 with sight & trigger mods that I like and have good shooting experience with works better for me than replacing these with Gen5 versions.
__________________
Words to Live By: Before You Pray - Believe; Before You Speak - Listen; Before You Spend - Earn; Before You Write - Think; Before You Quit - Try; Before You Die - Live
JDBerg is offline  
Old August 4, 2021, 12:19 AM   #31
Lima Oscar 7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2021
Posts: 112
I have been fooling with Glocks since 1992. My first was what would be technically considered a Gen. 2 Glock 22. IMHO, the Gen. 3 is the 9mm Generation to own and the Gen. 4 is the .45 ACP Generation to own (A future Gen. 5 might be better.) and the Gen. 5 is the .40 Generation to own.

The Gen. 5 is the first generation that is an actual .40 caliber instead of a 9mm converted to .40. To get a better understanding of what I mean, go shoot an H&K .40. They are actual .40 caliber pistols versus 9mm conversions.

I too am experiencing better accuracy with the Gen. 5 and the trigger is better. The finish is also better while we are on the subject of 5th generation Glocks.

When it comes to Glocks and my needs for a defensive handgun, any generation will suit me. They’re not infallible as I have a Gen. 3, 23 that will soon head off to Smyrna to be re-built but they come close.

As far as the original posters premise, find a solid gun that fits you and be content. There will always be that latest and greatest generation around the block a.k.a. marketing.
__________________
Disclaimer: All comments or opinions regarding firearms will be carefully worded based upon personal ownership with extensive use and are not intended to offend the reader.
Lima Oscar 7 is offline  
Old August 4, 2021, 01:15 AM   #32
Desmosedici
Member
 
Join Date: April 1, 2016
Location: North Texas
Posts: 70
My older brother bought a brand new Glock 19X a few months back and I was stunned how accurate and smooth the trigger was compared to my G19 which is gen4. Many, many articles I've read have stated that the Gen5 is more accurate, although not by leaps and bounds, than the other generations. I'm sure there are folks with earlier generations that have tuned their pistols with triggers/sights and such to make them very accurate for them. I have shot the beans out of my 19 and with the loads it does best with, 10-15 feet I can hit very accurately with. The longest shot I'd ever have to take in my house is right around 15 feet, so I'm comfortable if I'd ever need it in that scenario. 20-25 feet I'm not as good with it, which is a little frustrating but that's more of a reflection me than the gun.

I realize some gun writers have bias so I don't take it that every Gen 5 is better due to the marksman's barrel. My only experience is with the 19x. And that particular copy my brother owns is very accurate with (for a stock Glock) a nice trigger.

I am pleased overall with my gen 4 19, though, and at the moment have no interest in upgrading to a 5. Luckily, I think I'm one of the few people that don't dislike the grooves on the grip, they actually work with my fingers without issue.
Desmosedici is offline  
Old August 4, 2021, 06:19 AM   #33
Lima Oscar 7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2021
Posts: 112
The grooves don’t bother me either way. I like both the Gen. 1/2/5 grips as well as the Gen. 2.5/3/4 grips.
__________________
Disclaimer: All comments or opinions regarding firearms will be carefully worded based upon personal ownership with extensive use and are not intended to offend the reader.
Lima Oscar 7 is offline  
Old August 4, 2021, 07:45 AM   #34
JustJake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2020
Posts: 241
Quote:
The Gen. 5 is the first generation that is an actual .40 caliber instead of a 9mm converted to .40. To get a better understanding of what I mean, go shoot an H&K .40. They are actual .40 caliber pistols versus 9mm conversions.
That's an important point.

Sig did that early on with their .40 P229 series. The P228, almost identical in size, was a 9mm. The 229s were beefer in comparison, built from the ground up as .40 pistols, not merely re-barreled 9mms.

It also appeared to me that 229s were the most accurate 40 pistols I ever shot.
__________________
I use the Jake Brake every chance I get.
Don't care if it annoys you.
Hear me now?!
JustJake is offline  
Old August 4, 2021, 09:03 AM   #35
Moonglum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2015
Posts: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
I don't think it's even a question that the Gen5 is more accurate than the Gen4 Glock.

So why would anyone stick with the Gen4 given this non question upgrade?

As mentioned that I didn't, the Shield 2.0 had a better trigger than the M&P 2.0. So M&P 2.0 owners, year or two away. Just seems a little like we're being fleeced for upgrades.

Meh. I just would be surprised if in one year, all current guns don't have a new generation out except for the P320 and the Gen5 Glock. Kinda lame.
Because I'm satisfied with my fourth generation Glock 19?

I went from third generation S&Ws to 1911s to CZs back to third generation S&Ws to S&W M&Ps (first generation, none of the "improvements" interest me in the slightest) and finally to fourth generation Glocks. That's where I stopped chasing the latest, greatest, whizz bang, new thing.

At some point you have to stop chasing the pot of gold and start learning to master the gun you have.
__________________
You ain't even my REAL dad
Moonglum is offline  
Old August 4, 2021, 09:10 AM   #36
Lima Oscar 7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2021
Posts: 112
I owned a P220 .45ACP West German in the 1990’s it is the handgun I most regret parting with. Like the circa 2000 P239 I carried for a while, they were highly accurate with buttery smooth triggers. Thanks for reminding me about the classic Sigs.
__________________
Disclaimer: All comments or opinions regarding firearms will be carefully worded based upon personal ownership with extensive use and are not intended to offend the reader.
Lima Oscar 7 is offline  
Old August 4, 2021, 11:51 PM   #37
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,048
I don't think CZ is going to be "updating" the P-10C any time in the near future - they are just fine the way they are. So that is a "safe buy". I carry my first gen P-10C from 2017 every single day.
armoredman is offline  
Old August 5, 2021, 07:03 AM   #38
Carl the Floor Walker
member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2017
Location: South
Posts: 1,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
Glock also says on their website a tighter action and trigger along with a better barrel improve gen5 accuracy. This is straight from the Glock website I posted.

I haven't heard someone say their Gen5 is less accurate than the Gen4.

The point being, if there is an agreement on a 500 dollar gun being better with a new generation, it's kinda silly not to get the improvement (let's assume it's a mechanical improvement.
So Glock says "on their website a tighter action and trigger along with a better barrel improve gen5 accuracy."

Ok, how much greater accuracy? 1" at 15 yds? .001" at 15 yards? You say you never heard anyone say my Gen 4 is more accurate than my Gen 5?. I never hear it either way. Most of the Glock Shooters at the range I know simply are just shooting and concentrating on their game. Fast shooting at steel targets etc. Not sure they could even tell you the difference between the two.
Will a shooter that has thousands of rounds through a Gen 4, all of a sudden be a better shooter with a Gen 5? Are thousands of Gen 4 shooters that do not shoot very often all of a sudden going to say, dang, this gun is so much more accurate?
What is you goal when training? Will a new model make you shoot better because you have reached the pinnacle of total proficiency with your present skills and must have something new to reach a small percentage more to that Proficiency?

I love marketing. In most cases it is so full of BS. The terms they use. Like "As Low as" etc. Like cereal "Now with more almonds". Could mean they threw in two more almonds.
When a person purchases a Glock for example, many do because they want a solid gun that will last a life time, or thousands of rounds. What is the point of a gun that will do this, when in a few years it is worthless because the gun you thought was so great is now obsolete because a new model came out.
Maybe Glock should Advertise like this. Get a Glock now, great shooting, (until the next model comes out).
I do not own a Glock, I do own guns that I know will most likely last me a lifetime. I cannot see getting a new gun that I am so familiar with, that has done so much for me until I wear it out. Even then might just get a new barrel and parts.
How many rounds is a Glock designed to shoot? Or does that even matter now as you are going to upgrade to a new one in a few years?
Carl the Floor Walker is offline  
Old August 5, 2021, 07:19 AM   #39
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 11,394
No 4" seems gen update proof in the immediate future...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker View Post
So Glock says "on their website a tighter action and trigger along with a better barrel improve gen5 accuracy."

Ok, how much greater accuracy? 1" at 15 yds? .001" at 15 yards? You say you never heard anyone say my Gen 4 is more accurate than my Gen 5?. I never hear it either way. Most of the Glock Shooters at the range I know simply are just shooting and concentrating on their game. Fast shooting at steel targets etc. Not sure they could even tell you the difference between the two.
Will a shooter that has thousands of rounds through a Gen 4, all of a sudden be a better shooter with a Gen 5? Are thousands of Gen 4 shooters that do not shoot very often all of a sudden going to say, dang, this gun is so much more accurate?
What is you goal when training? Will a new model make you shoot better because you have reached the pinnacle of total proficiency with your present skills and must have something new to reach a small percentage more to that Proficiency?

I love marketing. In most cases it is so full of BS. The terms they use. Like "As Low as" etc. Like cereal "Now with more almonds". Could mean they threw in two more almonds.
When a person purchases a Glock for example, many do because they want a solid gun that will last a life time, or thousands of rounds. What is the point of a gun that will do this, when in a few years it is worthless because the gun you thought was so great is now obsolete because a new model came out.
Maybe Glock should Advertise like this. Get a Glock now, great shooting, (until the next model comes out).
I do not own a Glock, I do own guns that I know will most likely last me a lifetime. I cannot see getting a new gun that I am so familiar with, that has done so much for me until I wear it out. Even then might just get a new barrel and parts.
How many rounds is a Glock designed to shoot? Or does that even matter now as you are going to upgrade to a new one in a few years?

As someone that has owned Gen 3, 4, and 5 Glocks I personally saw a noticeable improvement in shooting Gen 5 Glocks when it came to group sizes (and I had many thousands of rounds through the Glocks I had previously). I didn’t find it was marketing bs.

Now should someone sell their Gen 3/4 just to upgrade? I don’t think it’s required, but if they want to and they have the money I don’t see a problem with it. Glocks generally have good resale value and you could probably trade out of a Gen 3/4 for not much money.

We all have differing levels of disposable income and goals. I don’t think shooting development and new firearm purchases have to be mutually exclusive. You should be honest with yourself as to whether or not you’re making a decision for something tangible, but even then if someone just likes something more that’s their call.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by TunnelRat; August 5, 2021 at 07:27 AM.
TunnelRat is online now  
Old August 5, 2021, 07:52 AM   #40
Carl the Floor Walker
member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2017
Location: South
Posts: 1,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
As someone that has owned Gen 3, 4, and 5 Glocks I personally saw a noticeable improvement in shooting Gen 5 Glocks when it came to group sizes (and I had many thousands of rounds through the Glocks I had previously). I didn’t find it was marketing bs.

Now should someone sell their Gen 3/4 just to upgrade? I don’t think it’s required, but if they want to and they have the money I don’t see a problem with it. Glocks generally have good resale value and you could probably trade out of a Gen 3/4 for not much money.

We all have differing levels of disposable income and goals. I don’t think shooting development and new firearm purchases have to be mutually exclusive. You should be honest with yourself as to whether or not you’re making a decision for something tangible, but even then if someone just likes something more that’s their call.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am not a Glock fan, however that does not mean they are not great guns. I believe they are. So I have not put thousands of rounds out of one to say that each new model keeps getting better groups.
But I have had upgrades on other guns that IMO that did not shoot any better. Perhaps it is the fact that I become so familiar with a gun because of spending so much time with it etc.
But as you say, and I agree with, purchasing a new model, or more guns is a individual choice and thanks to the fact that we Live in a Great Country we can make those choices.
So in that regard, I would say that someone with disposable income should go ahead and get a new model. Even if he or she does not like it as well as the previously model they can just keep it or sell it. Each to his own.

Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; August 5, 2021 at 08:01 AM.
Carl the Floor Walker is offline  
Old August 5, 2021, 08:00 AM   #41
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 11,394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker View Post
But I have had upgrades on other guns that IMO that did not shoot any better. Perhaps it is the fact that I become so familiar with a gun because of spending so much time with it etc.
This is a very fair point and I’ve been there myself. I have a bin full of parts that I’ve tried in an effort to “improve” a firearm in some way or another. In a number of cases it didn’t seem to help, and in some cases it even made the firearm less reliable.

For me I’ve found this negative result more with putting aftermarket parts into firearms than I have with factory changes. For instance, to me the 2.0 changes to the M&P line were something I liked and made it so I no longer felt the need for APEX parts.

Of course the manufacturer, as you’ve pointed out, has a vested interest in us buying new firearms. Determining what is marketing and what is real isn’t always easy. My point is more that sometimes there actually is a difference that might be worth it. If you can try yourself before making that jump, borrowing a firearm from a friend at a range or making a rental, then hopefully you reduce the risk of regretting a buying decision.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is online now  
Old August 5, 2021, 08:04 AM   #42
Carl the Floor Walker
member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2017
Location: South
Posts: 1,422
I think most NEW owners unfamiliar with any gun will automatically go with a new GEN. One improvement I did read about is that a newer trigger has more of a rolling movement. Since I am a DAO fan, this might be something that would interest myself.

Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; August 5, 2021 at 08:48 AM.
Carl the Floor Walker is offline  
Old August 27, 2021, 11:33 AM   #43
Jeff #111
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2001
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,058
I carried a Gen 4 G19 for eight years (2013-2021) A couple months ago my agency "upgraded" me to the Gen 5 G48. Nice pistol and I scored a possible (100%) first through the qualification course. Hooray! I also scored many a possible over the past years with my "old" Gen 4 G19. Hooray!

I opted to purchase my "old" G19 for $200 when I was upgraded. I will be retiring in approximately five years and more than likely my "new & improved" G45 will be gifted to me (slide engraved with my name, badge number and years of service) by my agency. I'll happily keep it. Then I'll have two old Glocks that I will be perfectly happy with and see no need to upgrade. They will be in a safe with handguns that are (in some cases) seventy - ninety years old and still work very very well.

The last truly new handgun I purchased was a Ruger GP100 in 2016. A new handgun in terms of birth date, but almost exactly the same as the first GP100 introduced at the 1986 SHOT Show...or was it the 1985 show?? Well anyway the point is I don't understand the need to constantly upgrade ones trucks or guns. Incidentally my truck is a 1994 Ford F150; which works just fine and I'm very happy to drive. I guess that makes me a Bad American (i.e. bad consumer)
__________________
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who didn't. Ben Franklin
Jeff #111 is offline  
Old August 27, 2021, 12:09 PM   #44
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 17,221
Quote:
I guess that makes me a Bad American (i.e. bad consumer)
SF author Mack Reynolds wrote a story of a future in which one family declining to buy a new washing machine upset the whole economy.
A guy selling generic soap in paper bags was considered a saboteur.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old August 28, 2021, 02:31 PM   #45
Jeff #111
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2001
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,058
There you go. Those stories seemed over the top when they were published but in 2021 they now seem eerily prescient.
__________________
Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who didn't. Ben Franklin
Jeff #111 is offline  
Old August 28, 2021, 03:16 PM   #46
Mannlicher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: North Central Florida & Miami
Posts: 3,153
I am still waiting for an exciting upgrade to the S&W Model 65, so I can finally have a reason to buy a new revolver.
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan
Mannlicher is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.13361 seconds with 10 queries