What happened to Muzzle Loaders?

[aspen1964]

...when I need a diversion from today's stupidity in the sporting world, I pull out an old Sports Afield Hunting or Fishing Annual from the 40s or 50s or so and enjoy a littlie lost paradise adventure with sportsmen such as Elmer Keith, Col. Townsend Whelen, Ted Trueblood, Pete Brown, Howard Hill, Ben Pearson, Ed Zern, George Heinhold and many others....it's like seeing an awful sitcom today and then watching Andy Grifith or Dick Van Dyke...awww..refreshing....

[butch50]

Trip, your argument isn't an argument at all. You are apparently angry and responding without logic.

That's good, because maybe now that you are angry, you will start thinking hard about the subject. If you do, then you might start to realize that hunting is quickly degenerating because of a mass of brainwashed consumer gadget buyers who think they are pursuing a sport, when in fact they are ruining the sport.

As for what technology do I use? A traditional .50 caliber muzzle loader, Hawken style, with round ball and gasp actual black powder. I use it during blackpowder and rifle season. I do drive my truck to the hunting area, then walk in a long long ways. I used a compass and a map when first exploring the area, but have it pretty well mapped out in my head now so I don't bother with those anymore. Oh, and a sharp knife. Once in a while during the rifle season I will switch over to my 12 gauge slug gun, that's it for technology. I have been considering a long bow for bow season, but haven't actually made one yet......

[HOKIEHUNTER]

I have been considering a long bow for bow season, but haven't actually made one yet......

well you have fun with that Mr. Crockett, but for me I'm stickin to what works the best for a novice...

shoot while we're at hiking has become something disgusting with the advent of camel packs, hiking shoes, etc...
Shoot, if you're not gettin around on horse and carriage you're not living traditionally...
and how many of those original hunters used computers? do you make your own black powder too???

look you don't like the way things are goin, buy some land and hunt that land by yourself with your own "traditional" equipment. but since my hunting doesn't affect you at all, you have no right to say anything at all. In fact a portion of the amount I pay on those expensive gadgets I buy and all those hunting fees I pay for the right to hunt go to improve the quality of hunting for all of us. plus me buying a $500 muzzle-loader from TC gives them a little extra dime in their pocket to give to a PAC (that's political action committee if you didn't know) to make sure some liberal bastards don't restrict my gun ownership / hunting rights.

[n3twrkm4n]

I can only contest to the ability of modern day equipment to easily dispatch any game reliably and properly. Primitive manners may sometimes be less than humane or quick. There is a way to be primitive without being cruel.

[butch50]

plus me buying a $500 muzzle-loader from TC gives them a little extra dime in their pocket to give to a PAC (that's political action committee if you didn't know) to make sure some liberal bastards don't restrict my gun ownership / hunting rights.

Brilliant, you have reduced your argument down to gibberish, all by yourself. Quite lovely.

I can only contest to the ability of modern day equipment to easily dispatch any game reliably and properly. Primitive manners may sometimes be less than humane or quick. There is a way to be primitive without being cruel.

Humane kills come from skill, not the equipment. Bows do not make humane kills. Relatively speaking, a well placed shot from a firearm is as humane as hunting gets.

[n3twrkm4n]

I don't know about your state, but up here it's beneficial for our hunter's to have modern day firearms if it's something else that helps them because honestly we have some pretty stupid people out in our woods.

We get lots of people from other states with one-day hunting permits who feel they 'own' our land and are mostly of the yuppy type that order one of everything from the Cabela's catalog. There are others around here that are avid hunters and keep it simplistic.

By equipment I'm referring to the ability of newer bullet technology, accurized (sp) triggers and weapons, scope technology, bow technology and whatever. ALL lead to the less error the human can make and blame it on the equipment. Yes I understand it takes skill, I've been shooting since I was a little kid and still can't bullseyes ALL day. We're only human, and no matter what SKILL you have you can still mess up, and wouldn't it be better to have a quicker, more accurate follow up shot at 100 yards with a scope, and a bullet you KNOW is accurate by today's factory load standards, than have an inconsistent bullet, a broken scope, or bent iron sight?

I'm just saying technology is an 'enabler' sometimes a crutch. It enhances God given talent and skill. If someone sucks, they are going to suck no matter what technology is given, like my friend... he couldn't shoot a bow accurately to save his life he just doesn't have that talent.

Hope that clarifies things, I'm sure the OP will close down this thread anyhow because it's just turned into a nasty flame war over one guys interpretation of logic over blackpowder firearms. If anything he's snickering and grinin' at us trying to explain ourselves to each other through this witch hunt.

[butch50]

I'm just saying technology is an 'enabler' sometimes a crutch.

Muzzleloader seasons were specifically created for traditional muzzleloader guns. The seasons were made and designed just for them. What has happened to MLs since the seasons became popular is that corporations have competed with each other to gain more sales. But they have taken the spirit of the law and violated it exactly the way an attorney will violate the spirit of the law by arguing the letter of the law. Hunters who use these loophole guns are violating the spirit of the season, out of small mindedness.

Using modern MLs during centerfire season is great, it is awesome, it means you are providing the deer with an extra edge. That takes guts and spirit to do. Using them during ML season takes just the opposite.

[Lonestar.45]

I know what you mean. "Gadgetitis" has infected everything in hunting. But by the same token, there are many dozens more "traditional" muzzleloaders available on the market now too than there were 20 or 30 years ago, so it's not all bad.

I bought a first class compound bow in 1991 or so and got into archery. I kept up with the new trends for a few years, then just quit reading all the archery mags and going into the bow shops, and just hunted. Now, I go into Cabelas, and I don't recognize some of the new sights and other gadgets. So much has changed in the last few years.

I have a great uncle who is 75 yrs old. He's been bowhunting with the same recurve now since the 50's. No sights, about 70lbs pull. Last year, he shot 3 deer at 8 yds (that's how close he builds his brush blind to his feeder because his eyesight isn't so good anymore). I don't think he even knows what a fiberoptic sight is or what it's used for. When I get a case of the "gadgetitis", I think about him, put the gadgets back on the store shelf, and just go hunt.

[Acegoesbang]

my father and i used to shoot comp muzzle loaders and well he still does he shoot a custom built flint lock that he assembled with a duglas barrel its a 54 cal and the he has a smooth bore flint in the same 28 ga. we both have shoot the nmla and i placed 1st like 3 years in youth when i was 9/10/11
we used to shoot at fort hartfort muzzle loaders association and went to friendship indiana every year ...i shot a 45 cal thomson with duglas barrel percusion

[Lawyer Daggit]

I agree with folks about high tech archery and black powder guns. Black powder in line guns are about finding loop holes.


Interestingly in Australia where there is no black powder season no one bothers about these new high tech muzzle loaders and someone who wants a muzzle loader buys an authentic one.

[Acegoesbang]

thinking back when my father got me into it most peopel didn't know what black powder rifles were lol they were not known to most people. i think our old club might have a website one sec

[Acegoesbang]

fort hartford muzzle loaders my father is prob in there some were he come up with the burning powder and haveing fun slogan might have pic of me dunno

[impact]

This is funny! I hear so much talk about making humane kills. There are better bows and black powder rifles being made today. But they are bad because they are better and more accurate . Hay you only get one shot with a bow and black powder rifle. .

[butch50]

This is funny! I hear so much talk about making humane kills. There are better bows and black powder rifles being made today. But they are bad because they are better and more accurate . Hay you only get one shot with a bow and black powder rifle.

No matter what you are shooting, bow, muzzleloader, bolt/lever action, semi-auto - if you are not 100% sure of a clean one shot kill, then you should not be taking a shot at all, until you are 100% sure of it. The precision of the gun can not make up for the lack of skill of the shooter, or the lack of patience and skill of the hunter to get close enough to shoot within his personal skill range.

[impact]

What about the new design in muzzel loader bullets and broadheads for bows? should we use flint rock and round balls?

You are never 100% sure of a kill till it happens.

[butch50]

You are never 100% sure of a kill till it happens.

I have been hunting for a few years now, about 44 or so, and I have killed my share in that time. You can be 100% certain that you are making a shot that is well within your ability to make, before you pull the trigger. There is no excuse for making an iffy shot, in hope of making a kill. Can you miss? Sure, but it should be a very rare occurrence, and if you miss it should be for a darned good reason and not because you were making a "Hail Mary" shot.

[impact]

and if you miss it should be for a darned good reason and not because you were making a "Hail Mary" shot.

Yah I agree with that. When people say 100% it reminds me of what an old guy told me one time. Only a woman is 100% sure the child she had is hers.

[454c]

When they allow single shot rifles that use a cartridge,I'll stand beside ya and yell "foul".As long as somebody is throwing powder and lead down the muzzle,I'll wish them good luck."Buffoon" or not.

Butch,you still didn't say if you use camo or not.
Do you have any trouble lighting the fuse on that smokepole of yours?WHAT?You don't use a fuse? Aaaaarrrggg!!! What is it with hunters these days?They're all gadget drunk I tell ya.DRUNK!Why there oughta be a law.

[HOKIEHUNTER]

The precision of the gun can not make up for the lack of skill of the shooter, or the lack of patience and skill of the hunter to get close enough to shoot within his personal skill range.

I beg to differ. my marlin 917 with a 10-40X50 scope can put 5 shot inside .5" at 100 yards regularly. over and over again i've killed groundhogs and squirrels in a single shot out to 200 yards. no i also have an ancient savage .22 lr. a classic. belonged to my granddad as a kid. great gun, but cannot hold a candle to my 917 the better bullet / powder / trigger makes me a better shooter. my skill doesn't change when i pick up one or the other, just the gun's ability.

When i pick up my Enocre it makes me a better shooter. do i still have to get close? yes. where i hunt 50 yards is a long shot so the increased range of the gun really doesn't make a difference. the Encore is much more forgiving and shoots much tighter groups than a traditional ML.

I don't know if you're a math wizz or not, but i'm an engineering student right now. One thing you learn in math classes esp. statistics is called COMPOUND error:
when you have 2 objects interfacing (gun and person) the error in the system isn't governed by whichever has more error, it's a combination of the two. the less error you have the more accurate your problem is. in our case if we have a good shooter with a good gun, guess what, THEY'RE MORE ACCURATE THAN A GOOD SHOOTER WITH A BAD GUN! it's as simple as that. so you're argument that a better gun does nothing for the shooter is BS.

and how about broadheads. if you cannot respond to the broadhead and the camo questions you might as well give up. DO NOT BOTHER responding if you can't tell me whether you carve your own broadheads out stone or not. Do you use carbon shafts? aluminum? do you buy feathers / vanes off the shelf? do you epoxy to re-fletch your arrorw? b/c none of that stuff is primitive. do you use a flashlight goin in and out of the woods? do you use a tree stand? do you wear insulated clothing? do you bring candy / lunch in a plastic bag with you? do you have any device to help drag a deer out the woods? do you wear a watch? do you use trail markers?

there are many inventions that have "bastardized" hunting. you're so caught up in the "good ole way" you miss the fact that the new stuff is helping to get the next generation into hunting. like i said before, i'm pretty new to hunting and will eventually revert to more classic style weapons, but for right now i'm learning and honing my skills. it's alot easier to learn and be confident with better equipment. so in several years when i have a steady job and hopefully some land i'm sure i'll get into kit rifles and recurve bows, but for the time being i'm hunting on public land where the competition is incredible and i'm gonna take every advantage i can.

[Trip20]

Originally Posted by butch50

The precision of the gun can not make up for the lack of skill of the shooter, or the lack of patience and skill of the hunter to get close enough to shoot within his personal skill range.

I can hardly believe my eyes. You've come full circle. I'm proud of you.

[butch50]

Hokie:

I don't bow hunt. I used to, but eventually I became uneasy with the manner in which an arrow kills, so I stopped. I may return to it in the future, and if I do it will be with either a long bow or a recurve.

The real point is this: ML seasons were created to suit traditional ML rifles. The idea was that it was a separation from the centerfire rifle technology. Since the inception of the ML season however, MLs are being designed that come closer and closer to the centerfire, which is taking advantage of a season that was designed to be limited by the ability of the ML rifle as they were known at that time; out of a kind of greed for killing more deer.

I hunt public land also - and if you are willing to do some real walking, you can take advantage of the fact that the vast majority of the hunters are too lazy to work their way into the most remote areas - which is where the deer go to avoid the lazy hunters. Those lazy hunters work to your benefit by concentrating the deer into the most remote areas Have you noticed that most hunters seem to hunt within 1/4 mile of a road? Look on your map, find the largest area without access to wheels, and head for the center of it. You might bump into me, but I doubt you will bump into anyone else; I will be the one wearing blue jeans, typically a khaki shirt a blaze orange vest and a blaze orange hat.

There have been many gadgets in the past, but recent technology is becoming too good for deer hunting. Technology now is far superior to anything in the past, and every single year it jumps by leaps and bounds.

[MEDDAC19]

After reading many of your "hunting" posts I realize there is no point in argueing with you. Your mind is closed and it would not matter what facts were given to you. If all hunters were like you there would be no hunting, the anti's would have outlawed the sport. But that said, I'll put in my .02.

Any season or method of hunting that is legal is OK by me. Styles or techniques that I don't like I just don't do. I don't go on rants and disparage the people that utilize those techniques nor do I try to get those method banned. Most states that have primitive weapon seasons do so to sell more licenses and to control their deer populations. In PA there are two BP seasons, One that is flintlock, open sights only; and one that is any muzzleloader with any sighting system. The latter, or for the gadget morons, fools, and diseased, is doe only and for herd control. The PGC wants more guys out in the woods. What is wrong with that? I hunt with a flintlock, should all percussion rifles be banned?

You also state that bows do not kill humanely, you obviously did not become proficient with your bow. A deer that is correctly hit with a broadhead does not know it has been killed until it faints from blood loss. Many more deer are wounded, and suffer, from gunfire than from archers.

As I told you once before, any method that gets people out in the woods is OK. The anti's just love guys like you, they love to quote your insults of hunting styles that you don't like. They use your words when trying to ban trapping or archery, "It's cheating, its not humane, its not sporting"

If I use your definition of hunting: "a sport that is based on the traditions of what once was a necessity", then all methods to legally kill game would be included. The subsistance hunters embraced every innovation that came down the road that made hunting easier. From club to spear to bows to muskets to punt guns that soon wiped out waterfowl, to the new fangled centerfire repeaters.

Lighten up, can't we all just get along?

[n3twrkm4n]

Your mind is closed and it would not matter what facts were given to you. If all hunters were like you there would be no hunting, the anti's would have outlawed the sport. But that said, I'll put in my .02.

Posting comments like that then asking people to get a long do not go hand in hand. This has turned into an outrageous flame war of people bashing others and that is just what anti-firearm people want, is for us to turn on each other.

Thank you for giving the people that we ALL hate as a WHOLE the chance to prove themselves right for saying that we are subtle and quick to anger...

Good job

[butch50]

You also state that bows do not kill humanely, you obviously did not become proficient with your bow. A deer that is correctly hit with a broadhead does not know it has been killed until it faints from blood loss. Many more deer are wounded, and suffer, from gunfire than from archers.

My personal choice was to no longer kill deer with arrows. First and foremost you should understand that I do not have the misconception that hunting is a humane sport - it is a killing sport. It is a blood sport. Your statement that a deer that is correctly hit won't know it has been hit, is not borne out by humans who have been hit - they knew it. Can you for one instant truly imagine that you just wouldn't notice an arrow with a 1" wide broad head passing through your body? Hunters who have been hit with arrows knew they were hit with arrows. What is the first thing you do after shooting a deer with an arrow? You wait 30 minutes before tracking right? And why is that? Because a deer hit with an arrow bleeds to death, and not too quickly. So, I prefer to shoot them with a gun, killing them within seconds. But I am thinking of taking the bow back up again too - so for me it is not a big issue.

As I told you once before, any method that gets people out in the woods is OK. The anti's just love guys like you, they love to quote your insults of hunting styles that you don't like. They use your words when trying to ban trapping or archery, "It's cheating, its not humane, its not sporting"

If hunters can't have honest open discussions about their sport because they are afraid that the antis are going to get excited by hearing the conversation, then everyone might as well quit talking about anything important.

If I use your definition of hunting: "a sport that is based on the traditions of what once was a necessity",

Already answered in previous posts.

I am going to be gone all weekend, will pick this back up next week. Hope everyone has a good weekend.

[Lonestar.45]

"Most states that have primitive weapon seasons do so to sell more licenses and to control their deer populations. "


The key word being "primitive". I don't define an inline muzzleloader with plastic sabots, powder pellets, and a 3x9 scope as being "primitive", is the thing. Don't get me wrong, I think anything that gets more folks hunting and into the woods is a good thing, but let's be honest, much of it doesn't deserve a special "primitive" season.

For instance, in many places, shots over 100 yds rarely happen. What's the big difference between a 30-30 lever action at that distance, and a modern inline with powder pellets and a scope? Actually, the inline is MORE modern, being as how it was developed way way after the lever action, and will more than likely have a scope and the lever gun will not.

I'm definitely not against inlines, hi tech archery, etc., if it generates more people hunting, it is a good thing. But I am against special seasons for some of the more advanced weaponry.