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Old November 26, 2019, 07:54 PM   #1
RayVa
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Proposed VA Legislation

Michael Bloomberg’s bought and paid for Virginia legislators have wasted no time introducing legislation that would make the Old Dominion’s gun laws worse than those of the billionaire’s home state of New York.
SB 16, introduced by Sen. Richard L. Saslaw, would create a total ban on commonly-owned semi-automatic firearms, like the AR-15. Even worse, the ban would even extend to common firearm parts. The restrictions included in the proposed legislation does not grandfather current owners. The legislation is clearly designed to be firearms confiscation, as current owners would be forced to dispossess themselves of their property or face a felony conviction.
Saslaw’s legislation provides,
It is unlawful for any person to import, sell, transfer, manufacture, purchase, possess, or transport an assault firearm.
Otherwise law-abiding gun owners found in possession of an “assault firearm,” even one they purchased prior to the ban, could be convicted of a Class 6 felony. A Class 6 felony is punishable by up to 5 years imprisonment.
The legislation lays out several criteria by which a firearm would be defined as an “assault firearm.” This includes,
• A semi-automatic centerfire rifle with a fixed magazine with a capacity greater than 10 rounds.
• A semi-automatic centerfire rifle with a detachable magazine that has one of the following characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the rifle; (iii) a thumbhole stock; (iv) a second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand; (v) a bayonet mount; (vi) a grenade launcher; (vii) a flare launcher; (viii) a silencer; (ix) a flash suppressor; (x) a muzzle brake; (xi) a muzzle compensator; (xii) a threaded barrel… or (xiii) any characteristic of like kind as enumerated in clauses (i) through (xii)
• A semi-automatic centerfire pistol with a fixed magazine capacity greater than 10 rounds.
• A semi-automatic centerfire pistol with a detachable magazine that has one of the following characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a thumbhole stock; (iii) a second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand; (iv) the capacity to accept a magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; (v) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the pistol with the non-trigger hand without being burned; (vi) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; (vii) a threaded barrel… or (viii) any characteristic of like kind as enumerated in clauses (i) through (vii);
• A shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
• A semi-automatic shotgun with one of the following characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock, (ii) a thumbhole stock, (iii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the shotgun, (iv) the ability to accept a detachable magazine, (v) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of seven rounds, or (vi) any characteristic of like kind as enumerated in clauses (i) through (v).
With this definition, SB 16 would outlaw America’s most popular rifle, the AR-15, along with countless other rifles, pistols, and shotguns that Virginians use for hunting, target shooting, and self-defense.
A knowledgeable firearms owner will take a look at the ridiculous definition and realize that such ham-handed legislation must be born out of petty vindictiveness or a complete ignorance of firearm technology, as there is no logical public safety rationale.
For example, the legislation is so broad that it would ban hunting guns like the Mossberg 935 Turkey shotgun for its “pistol grip.”

The ban would prohibit the possession of guns like this Model SP-10 Magnum Thumbhole Camo due to its thumbhole stock.

The ban would also capture guns such as this version of the Browning BAR Mark II Safari hunting rifle, as it has a detachable box magazine and a muzzle brake.

Moreover, the “any characteristic of like kind” language that appears after each list of prohibited features introduces an unacceptable vagueness into the definition of what does or does not constitute an “assault firearm.” Law-abiding gun owners would be forced to prophesy just how a court might interpret those unclear provisions.
As bad and senseless as the prohibition on certain firearms is, the proposed ban on firearm parts truly shows how Michael Bloomberg is cashing in on his political investment.
The legislation provides,
"Assault firearm" includes any part or combination of parts designed or intended to convert, modify, or otherwise alter a firearm into an assault firearm, or any combination of parts that may be readily assembled into an assault firearm.
This passage would appear to make all of the firearm parts listed under the various feature tests in and of themselves “assault firearms” and therefore prohibited. As the individual part is treated as an “assault firearm,” possession of such a part would be punishable in the same manner as a prohibited firearm, as a Class 6 felony.
Many firearms are modular. For instance, the same muzzle brake or flash suppressor could be used to turn a semi-automatic firearm into an “assault firearm” under the bill’s definition, or it could be used by a hunter or precision rifle shooter on their bolt-action rifle.
In recent years the popularity of the AR-15 platform has led to the adoption of AR-15 parts in other types of firearms. An example of this trend is the Ruger Precision Rimfire rifle. The firearm is a bolt-action rimfire rifle that accepts an AR-15 pistol grip. As the pistol grip part is a prohibited feature on a semi-automatic rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and is designed for use on a prohibited AR-15, the mere grip itself could be banned under this legislation.

SB 16 also bans the importation, sale, and transfer of standard capacity firearm magazines that are designed to hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition. Many handguns commonly-owned by law-abiding citizens for concealed carry come standard with magazines that would be banned. Otherwise law-abiding gun owners who violate the magazine provision could be found guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A Class 1 misdemeanor is punishable by up to a year in jail.
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Old November 27, 2019, 03:48 AM   #2
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A knowledgeable firearms owner will take a look at the ridiculous definition and realize that such ham-handed legislation must be born out of petty vindictiveness or a complete ignorance of firearm technology, as there is no logical public safety rationale.
I consider myself a knowledgeable firearms owner, and I disagree.

There is nothing petty about it, and they clearly are not completely ignorant of firearms technology.

I've heard there is an old saying among sharks that goes something like this.
"pointing to the mud on someone else's fins will not improve your own swimming"...

and this is a similar thing. Attacking the morals or ethics of the people proposing these laws does not help us, and may, in fact reduce the impact of your message. " Petty, vindictive", "Bought and paid for", and even "ignorant" are personal opinions, could be considered personal attacks, and are best left out of our responses to..well..everything these people say and do.

If you have actual PROOF, brother, trot it out for the world to see, but if you don't, don't claim things about other people you cannot prove. That's one of their favorite tactics and if we become them, even if we win, we lose.

Welcome to the 21st century, where some people want to make you a felon for possessing a totally inert lump of plastic in a shape they disapprove of... or a spring loaded metal box larger than they think should be allowed...
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Old November 27, 2019, 08:09 AM   #3
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Surprised people are not talking about this as its all over the internet and my friends have been texting and sending me emails about this....VA,CA,TX has lost it IMO. good bye VA.
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Old November 27, 2019, 08:46 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by popshooting445 View Post
Surprised people are not talking about this as its all over the internet and my friends have been texting and sending me emails about this....VA,CA,TX has lost it IMO. good bye VA.
Elections have consequences. VA GOP did a poor job in the last one. It's a little late to be crying foul when, once again, there were 30 some seats uncontested by the GOP in VA.

VA didn't 'lose it', the GOP did.
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Old November 27, 2019, 09:01 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
I consider myself a knowledgeable firearms owner, and I disagree.

There is nothing petty about it, and they clearly are not completely ignorant of firearms technology.

I've heard there is an old saying among sharks that goes something like this.
"pointing to the mud on someone else's fins will not improve your own swimming"...

and this is a similar thing. Attacking the morals or ethics of the people proposing these laws does not help us, and may, in fact reduce the impact of your message. " Petty, vindictive", "Bought and paid for", and even "ignorant" are personal opinions, could be considered personal attacks, and are best left out of our responses to..well..everything these people say and do.

If you have actual PROOF, brother, trot it out for the world to see, but if you don't, don't claim things about other people you cannot prove. That's one of their favorite tactics and if we become them, even if we win, we lose.

Welcome to the 21st century, where some people want to make you a felon for possessing a totally inert lump of plastic in a shape they disapprove of... or a spring loaded metal box larger than they think should be allowed...
The proof is there incessant attack on firearms and law abiding citizens.

Is this intended to stop some criminal from waking up and starting their day of crime?

Answer that question.

Do liberals really care about crime and violence? I say no. And their actions prove it. They don't enable people to protect themselves and they don't provide each citizen with their own personal cop. So without a personal cop, how would you advise someone to defend themselves? Maybe get a firearm? I'd advise that. My mother has an AR15... she has been a law abiding citizen her whole life. She is in her 70s. So now, with the wisdom and vindictiveness of the ANTI 2A liberal democrats socialists, they are coming up with a plan to take away her equalizer... they are trying to take away her ability to protect herself from multiple home defenders. That is logical? That is not vindictive? So who is it helping? I'll answer that: The Criminals... they are the only ones helped with this illogical anti 2A ideology. I grew up in Brooklyn and Queens and although I didn't write a thesis and have it published as some kind of Proof, I have made my own correlations of why the places i used to live are a Man Caused Disaster as compared to the Heaven Like place I live now. And it is all based on how they socially engineer laws and policies to protect the criminals and make the law abiding citizen think twice about everything... and if the law abiding don't think correctly, they have a plan for that. And in the meantime, not one criminal loses a bit of sleep over it.

Since you seem to think these laws are logical and are not out of vindictiveness, tell me what you think the goals of these laws are? Explain the logic please.
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Old November 27, 2019, 09:13 AM   #6
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Don’t worry boys. I’m sure after something like this passes they’ll finally declare victory and go home and stop trying to pass more gun control.
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Old November 27, 2019, 02:53 PM   #7
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Since you seem to think these laws are logical and are not out of vindictiveness, tell me what you think the goals of these laws are? Explain the logic please.
The logic is simple. Ban guns, and people won't be hurt by guns anymore.

Of course, its FLAWED, but they don't think so.

They don't see taking away our property as punishment, they see it as improving everyone's safety. No doubt some of them do take delight in what we see as punishment, there are evil people everywhere. We see it one way, they see it a much different way, we're not being punished, they taking dangerous things from "the wrong hands". etc.

Cars kill more people than guns, swimming pools kill more people than gun accidents, DOCTORS kill more people than guns with medical mistakes, but these things (and many more) have utility in their world, guns do not.

The base is the elitist worldview that "they" know what is right, we do not, and it is their moral responsibility to make us live the "right" way. With force if necessary. Force of law, preferred, force of arms (how ironic) if law fails.

We are the ignorant children who don't know what's best for us. They are the adults, who do. Once, we were called "the great unwashed" now, we're a
basket of deplorables" and other names.

some of them are true believers, many are more cynical and do recognize the truth, but they know that not admitting it gets them closer to what they want than admitting it does.

Notice how, for several years after the terrorist attack of 9/11 the major players in the gun control movement simply SHUT UP! A couple of them even publicly admitted they had been wrong, but only a couple. And, it think those later recanted...

Their logic is simple, get rid of all the bad THINGS (not bad people) and the world will be a perfect place. Without bad THINGS, we won't have bad people, etc.

Its logical. WRONG, but logical, by their standards.
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Old November 27, 2019, 03:08 PM   #8
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The Democrat hold on the VA senate is fragile; 21-19. Democrats control the house 55-45. If VA gunowners were properly organized, and i suggest they are hopelessly unorganized; a few Democrats could possibly be turned, killing gun control.

Billionaire Bloomberg bankrolled the Democrats. What are Republican billionaires doing with their spare change? The Republican party cared so much about the Virginia election that 30 seats were uncontested.
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Old November 27, 2019, 03:29 PM   #9
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I believe the real motivation is control and it's alot easier to impose whatever you see fit on a disarmed population that has no ability to fight back. Ask any North Korean, Venezuelan, Iranian or any of the other number of socialist,communist, dictator run third world holes
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Old November 27, 2019, 04:00 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by thallub View Post
The Democrat hold on the VA senate is fragile; 21-19. Democrats control the house 55-45. If VA gunowners were properly organized, and i suggest they are hopelessly unorganized; a few Democrats could possibly be turned, killing gun control.

Billionaire Bloomberg bankrolled the Democrats. What are Republican billionaires doing with their spare change? The Republican party cared so much about the Virginia election that 30 seats were uncontested.
Our opposition to the new laws are not being handled by the Republicans but by us gunowners in the state. We are working hard. See: https://vcdl.org/
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Old November 27, 2019, 04:59 PM   #11
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They don't see taking away our property as punishment, they see it as improving everyone's safety. No doubt some of them do take delight in what we see as punishment, there are evil people everywhere.
I think some of them do indeed see punishment of wrongthink as the main feature and not a cherry on top. How else do you explain people who acknowledge the policy won’t really help their stated goal and yet they push it anyway?

Not to mention I see that sentiment a lot these days on the under 30 crowd of lawyers on either side.
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Old November 27, 2019, 08:04 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
The logic is simple. Ban guns, and people won't be hurt by guns anymore.

Of course, its FLAWED, but they don't think so.

They don't see taking away our property as punishment, they see it as improving everyone's safety. No doubt some of them do take delight in what we see as punishment, there are evil people everywhere. We see it one way, they see it a much different way, we're not being punished, they taking dangerous things from "the wrong hands". etc.

Cars kill more people than guns, swimming pools kill more people than gun accidents, DOCTORS kill more people than guns with medical mistakes, but these things (and many more) have utility in their world, guns do not.

The base is the elitist worldview that "they" know what is right, we do not, and it is their moral responsibility to make us live the "right" way. With force if necessary. Force of law, preferred, force of arms (how ironic) if law fails.

We are the ignorant children who don't know what's best for us. They are the adults, who do. Once, we were called "the great unwashed" now, we're a
basket of deplorables" and other names.

some of them are true believers, many are more cynical and do recognize the truth, but they know that not admitting it gets them closer to what they want than admitting it does.

Notice how, for several years after the terrorist attack of 9/11 the major players in the gun control movement simply SHUT UP! A couple of them even publicly admitted they had been wrong, but only a couple. And, it think those later recanted...

Their logic is simple, get rid of all the bad THINGS (not bad people) and the world will be a perfect place. Without bad THINGS, we won't have bad people, etc.

Its logical. WRONG, but logical, by their standards.
I believe what you wrote is true. But what is logical to them is not necessarily logical. I believe ALL their politicians (democrats) are camouflaging their deviant agenda with a logic that they know is a lie. They know exactly what they are doing. And I believe they look at freedom loving Americans as an enemy just the same as ISIS, as depicted by a MSNBC analyst just last night... except they seem to have a bit more respect for ISIS... at least the congresswoman in MN does and a couple others. I have no interest in their lives and don't wish harm on anyone. With them, they cannot leave us alone. Bottom line is that we are the target of their legislation, not criminals. First charge to get dropped in a plea in Chicago is the possession of a firearm charge. A while back the Trump administration brought up making armed robbery a federal charge like car jacking.... just to force some of these high crime cities to have to prosecute offenders rather than allow them to make the possession of a firearm charge disappear so they can get them to plea to lesser charges.

I also think a lot of VA was caught with their pants down... then you read about all the unopposed seats which leads me to think they had more than enough advance warning to put up a better fight than they did... so where was the breakdown? Either way, they better learn from this point on. I'm not a VA resident, but I spend a lot of time there... enough time to where I got their non resident permit when Gov. McCauliffe, a couple years ago, decided he was not going to honor reciprocity with any other state CCW permits, and my county borders their state. He did say he would honor those with the VA non res permit though. So I got it cause if they elected another anti 2A governor, which they did, I would not have to worry about. That was a 100 bucks I could have spent on something else or not spent at all. So now with majorities in the house and senate, it looks like all their efforts are to go after law abiding citizens.

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Old November 28, 2019, 09:19 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Americanpatriot View Post
I believe the real motivation is control and it's alot easier to impose whatever you see fit on a disarmed population that has no ability to fight back. Ask any North Korean, Venezuelan, Iranian or any of the other number of socialist,communist, dictator run third world holes
Perhaps but this population in the US isn't going to be 'disarmed' anytime soon. Number of guns in the US is pushing 400MILLION. Not the $, structure, or political will exists with ANY present or future politician to 'disarm' the US population, regardless of the rhetoric heard on MSM. The US government doesn't even KNOW who has what and the $/time to find that out just isn't there. Making 'guns' illegal tomorrow(won't happen) doesn't mean they disappear...
Referencing 'dictator run 3rd world 'holes', is meaningless, IMHO.

Ya know, How DOES the group that favors more gun control attract that nebulous, unaligned, large, middle group?
Do they say if you disagree with them you care more about an enemy of the US than US citizens(ISIS reference)?
Do they say a war is coming and any people that doesn't agree with them will be the first victims? Violently?
Do they say anybody who disagrees with them are cowards, anti-american treasonists?
Do they say they don't want their opponents to be harmed but in the same breath say they hope they are?

No, they use calm discussions, backed by(often flawed) stastistics and talking points. When somebody 'goes off the rails' about gun control(enemy, deserves the worse things, traitor, 'love it or leave it'), the anti gun smiles and says, 'see, that's what I mean'..

I agree with a LOT of what is said on this forum and others about owning and using guns in the US(as I do..own and use) but some of this rhetoric does nothing but reinforce one side and rile up another...but does nothing to try to sway the large, unaligned middle.

Gonna get a ear full here, I am sure. But I am part of the nebulous, unaligned middle..I own guns, want to keep them but sometimes I DO think pro gun people shoot themselves in the foot. Sorry for an oft repeated pun..

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Old November 28, 2019, 10:44 AM   #14
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Surprised people are not talking about this as its all over the internet and my friends have been texting and sending me emails about this....VA,CA,TX has lost it IMO. good bye VA.
There is talk and there has been action...more action is still needed from EVERYONE in and out of VA!
https://vaguntrader.com/forums/ubbth...hp/forums/52/1
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...t-move.858689/
https://vaguntrader.com/forums/ubbth...p/forums/232/1
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=604453
https://www.vcdl.org/
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Old November 28, 2019, 11:44 AM   #15
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I hear a lot of push back on the supposed Tone of the conversation. I hear about how they can calmly rebuff angered comments that are labeled unnecessary.

But what is worse, some pissed off people who vent a little or the side that has done absolutely nothing to provide real solutions to real problems and instead single handedly devise policies and laws that made every crime & gun violence problem MUCH worse?

I'm not trying to demonize anyone on here, but I think the true intentions of the anti gunners is in a way being sanitized by some people on here... maybe to calm people down and not incite anger... might even be a good reason. But one thing I know, reasoning with the other side does nothing. All the while they are creating a generation of pot smoking low achievers who aspire to be homeless... what kind of an American Dream is that? And in 10 years, I bet the health problems of this population will cause our TVs to be flooded with commercials from the trial lawyers to "Call Now" with some line about how their cancer, depression and miserable lives are all our governments fault for not enforcing federal law.

The words I have to describe these people I guess is unacceptable... and going after guns is just a sliver of the damage they are wreaking on the US.
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Old November 28, 2019, 11:50 AM   #16
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VA has about 400,000 licensed concealed carriers. VCDL had about 8,000 members prior to the elections. That organization is reduced to ranting, raging and signing up "sanctuary" cities and counties.

Too little, too late.
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Old November 28, 2019, 12:14 PM   #17
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But what is worse, some pissed off people who vent a little or the side that has done absolutely nothing to provide real solutions to real problems and instead single handedly devise policies and laws that made every crime & gun violence problem MUCH worse?
Bit it's not going to be decided by either side that is entrenched in their position and they will never change their mind.
'Policies and laws'...'lawmakers' make those policies and laws. The ballot box is the only true 'poll' and the largest segment of the electorate is the unaligned middle. The 'independents. This thread is about Virginia..30 seat walkover for the democrats.
Quote:
Today 38% of Americans aged eighteen and older consider themselves politically "independent" of either major party. Among this group, only 1-2% indicates belonging to a specific third party while the rest are unaffiliated. A slightly smaller percentage of Americans, 34%, consider themselves Democrats today while the smallest share, 28%, identify as Republicans.
If a 'side' garners an additional 10-15% of 'independents', that side wins..pretty simple.
When nobody runs or one side's argument is bolstered by the rhetoric of the other side...

Use any comment or point of view, that the Mods agree with, here BUT when that rhetoric leaves a 'gun forum' and becomes the face of the opposition..that hurts the 'cause.
Quote:
I hear a lot of push back on the supposed Tone of the conversation.
The 'tone' of the conversation is being used against the pro gun side.
Idiots, traitors, targets, retards, ISIS supporters(sorry).
Examples are everywhere. Insulting Bloomberg, Beto, Biden, AOC, put name of Dem candidate here..does nothing but rile up their base.
Quote:
But one thing I know, reasoning with the other side does nothing. All the while they are creating a generation of pot smoking low achievers who aspire to be homeless.
Sorry but IMHO, I don't think that accomplishes anything if it were to become mainstream..BUT absolutely your right to say it..just trying to recognize the 'situation'..What happened in VA isn't any solution.

How do you 'reason' with the other side?.

Win on election day...Rules of 'war', whoever wins the war makes the rules..
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Old November 28, 2019, 12:40 PM   #18
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As a followup, PS, anybody can say anything they want anywhere, on any forum, for any reason..NOT what I'm saying..Angry, insulting public rhetoric in the trenches of politics doesn't accomplish much of anything with regards to the unaligned middle.

IMHO, of course.
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Old November 28, 2019, 12:58 PM   #19
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"Win on election day...Rules of 'war', whoever wins the war makes the rules.."

Well, we won on election day and Victory only feels like we get to stall the destruction of the US just a little bit longer. If we had a party that fought for freedom the way the democrats fight for oppression and mind control I'd say things wouldn't look so bleak for the future. Right now it is one man holding a tidal wave of Hell waiting to be unleashed on us... two if you count Pence.

VA is not the only target. But for now VA is probably Ground Zero... 2020 will be huge.

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Old November 28, 2019, 02:11 PM   #20
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You aren’t going to make any substantial changes in this country just by voting. If you want to see things change, you’ve got to get involved at the local level and start doing all that drudgery that no sane person wants to do and organizing your neighbors.

If you choose not to do that, other people will step up and do it. And those people are unlikely to reflect “good neighbor” values in my view, they are instead likely to be people who are expecting a personal payout for their work, rather than an indirect payout like a better society..

If you just vote in the general election, all you are doing is choosing amongst the people that are left over after all these other people have filtered out the candidates that threaten their personal enrichment. If you vote in the primaries, your vote counts more but there are still a lot of filters in place even at that level.

Personally, changes via democracy are going to take a sustained, lifelong effort on the level of the 60s era Weather Underground, who put down bombs to take over bureaucracy. I won’t live to see the counterculture effort to oppose that be successful.
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Old November 28, 2019, 02:37 PM   #21
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Well, we won on election day and Victory only feels like we get to stall the destruction of the US just a little bit longer.
I'd be willing to bet someone has felt that way about every election we've ever had since the first one.

"30 seats unopposed".. ok I'll assume its a verifiable fact. Now did one side do nothing? Or just nothing that you can see from outside? Lots of times things look different from the inside than they do from the outside.

How many of those seats were places where the local people decided it was simply a waste of resources fighting what they couldn't win? I don't know, but I think they do.

We are in a position where one party is actively working against something we believe in, and the other party has a lot of people who feel like "well, where else are you gonna go??" so they take our support as a given. Not all, by any means, but enough to have an effect.

It isn't one man, (or two if you count Pence) holding anything ALL BY THEMSELVES.
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Old November 28, 2019, 03:05 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
"I think some of them do indeed see punishment of wrongthink as the main feature and not a cherry on top. How else do you explain people who acknowledge the policy won’t really help their stated goal and yet they push it anyway?

Not to mention I see that sentiment a lot these days on the under 30 crowd of lawyers on either side."
Regrettably I suspect Mr. Roberts has nailed it.

There is within a significant percentage of those on the Progressive Liberal end of the political spectrum, which includes most if not all anti-gun sentiment, a sense that their goals and ends are virtuous; whereas the counter-perspective is not merely without virtue per se, but additionally is affiliated with anti-social paradigms that include racism, homophobia, misogyny, islamophobia, white privilege, hyper-patriotism, and a host of other psycho-social ills characteristic of conservative thought.

In other words, in the view of many anti-gunners people who enjoy firearms are not merely exhibiting 'wrong-think', they exhibit antisocial perspectives and rationale that are pathological in one respect or another.

As Mr. Roberts noted, individuals who favor banning ARs/AKs, for example, or who favor repealing the Second Amendment altogether are willing to admit that such measures would not stop criminals -- who after all are disinclined to obey laws to begin with.

They're able to cognitively agree that waiting periods and 'closing the gun show loophole' would not have prevented any of the mass shootings of the previous years.

Yet they want these measures passed into law anyway, because such measures would punish gun owners and those who enjoy firearms, in the same way that sinners are punished in most major religions of the world. We deserve punishment because we are sinners - we reject the more virtuous conclusions of those who believe they occupy the moral and ethical high ground.

At least in the reading I've done on the matter, in a genuine attempt to understand the point of view of those who so ardently argue in favor of more gun laws, there is a genuine sense of aggrievement over the rejection of their paradigm by gun owners.

They're willing to agree that more gun laws would not stop those who do not obey laws anyway - but there remains a punitive sense that gun owners need to be punished and punished more, until they give up their guns and change their thinking to conform to new norms.

It isn't about stopping crime. It's more about disarming America by changing the way Americans think. And, its about winning by any means necessary.
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Old November 28, 2019, 05:16 PM   #23
American Man
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
I'd be willing to bet someone has felt that way about every election we've ever had since the first one.

"30 seats unopposed".. ok I'll assume its a verifiable fact. Now did one side do nothing? Or just nothing that you can see from outside? Lots of times things look different from the inside than they do from the outside.

How many of those seats were places where the local people decided it was simply a waste of resources fighting what they couldn't win? I don't know, but I think they do.

We are in a position where one party is actively working against something we believe in, and the other party has a lot of people who feel like "well, where else are you gonna go??" so they take our support as a given. Not all, by any means, but enough to have an effect.

It isn't one man, (or two if you count Pence) holding anything ALL BY THEMSELVES.
Just how many people do you think are standing in between the next worst assault on the US Constitution? Am I off by just one person? I guess I should have included McConnell. If you think somehow that a unprecedented attack on gun rights would not be occurring right now if Trump did not hold the top spot and McConnell not hold the Senate, you are underestimating the left. They have learned from their mistakes... their mistakes being to not shred the constitution as much as they possibly can as fast as they can. They already proved they don't care about their own constituents by shoving Obamacare down America's throat with millions not being able to even afford the premiums so they paid the fine instead and did not have any insurance. If I were a middle class working democrat, I would have thought, "with friends like these, who needs enemies"... and somehow Obama sailed to his second term. If we did not have the Senate, I believe at this point in time that Pelosi and Schumer would shut down the government till an AWB was passed. And just wait till the next Democrats sits in the white house. What they do with their Pen and Phone will be nothing compared to what Obama did. The only thing they learned from Obama was how much further they actually could have pushed things... despite erasing most of what Obama has done. The left can go scorched earth because they think their constituents are expendable. I don't know of a single personality willing to disrupt the status quo the way Trump has. I could be wrong, it might just be Trump that is single handedly staving off what is coming. The left continues to underestimate him and I have no doubt that they would be bombarding any other republican president with much more cause they probably would not have fought nearly as hard as him.
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Old November 28, 2019, 06:27 PM   #24
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Quote:
Just how many people do you think are standing in between the next worst assault on the US Constitution?
Quite a few, including some card carrying union member democrats. But then, I'm counting all the little people, in the basket of deplorables who aren't in public office as well as all those who are but aren't the top names in the news day after day. The point is, it isn't just the leaders alone who do the work. Yes, they take the credit, and the honest ones take the blame when it's due, but they aren't the only people working for the cause. On either side.

I will admit, "Hell yes! we're going to take your AR-15!" does sound more than a bit spiteful. Especially when others have spent years says "no one is going to take your guns"...though it does have the rather unique place of being open and honest about their actual goals. DO note how fast that fellow got bounced out, probably for being so foolish as to speak the truth in public.
Though, of course the stated reason(s) will be something else...

National politics is tied to state politics on many levels but focusing on national politics in this thread is drifting it away from the OP topic of the proposed law(s) in VA.

The list of things to be banned is an updated, revised edit of the things that were in the 94AWB, and have been the "Standard" of the gun banners since.

A few new phrases, a couple of tweaks, but basically its the same stuff they've been trying to get passed since the AWB sunset. Except for a few years after 9/11/2001 when they focused on "bigger issues".

Since there hasn't been a major successful terrorist attack on American soil since then, they have decided its time to go back to telling America the biggest threat to our personal safety is people owning guns, and specifically the "bad guns" such as "assault weapons".

Note the proposed VA law still uses the "evil features" formula. Semi autos are only "assault weapons" if they have certain features. I wonder how much time their staffers spent going though gun data with a "choose this, not that" list to fill??

I note that a semi auto pistol that is too HEAVY is an assault weapon. All you Desert Eagle owners, take note!

Take at look at the ban of shotguns with revolving cylinders. See if there's language attached to that that include "like kind" or "substantially similar to" phrases. That's their ground work for banning revolvers, AFTER they get rid of semi autos.

WA state passed a law last election cycle, and while it wasn't a ban this NOW it turned every single semi auto rifle in the state into a "semi automatic assault rifle" in legal definition. Imposes extra waiting periods, background checks, cost, training requirement and several other things. EVERY SINGLE semi auto rifle, no matter the age, caliber or design, military style or not.

They did this with the definition in the law which was essentially, any rifle that use force from the fired cartridge to reload the chamber. There were no "if it has this feature it is, and if it doesn't it isn't" They just took the base definition of ALL semi auto firearms and applied it to turn everything semi auto and a rifle into a "semiautomatic assault rifle".

Apparently the folks looking to outlaw guns in WA are taking a slightly slower approach than those in VA.
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Old November 28, 2019, 07:03 PM   #25
American Man
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Quite a few, including some card carrying union member democrats. But then, I'm counting all the little people, in the basket of deplorables who aren't in public office as well as all those who are but aren't the top names in the news day after day. The point is, it isn't just the leaders alone who do the work. Yes, they take the credit, and the honest ones take the blame when it's due, but they aren't the only people working for the cause. On either side.

I will admit, "Hell yes! we're going to take your AR-15!" does sound more than a bit spiteful. Especially when others have spent years says "no one is going to take your guns"...though it does have the rather unique place of being open and honest about their actual goals. DO note how fast that fellow got bounced out, probably for being so foolish as to speak the truth in public.
Though, of course the stated reason(s) will be something else...

National politics is tied to state politics on many levels but focusing on national politics in this thread is drifting it away from the OP topic of the proposed law(s) in VA.

The list of things to be banned is an updated, revised edit of the things that were in the 94AWB, and have been the "Standard" of the gun banners since.

A few new phrases, a couple of tweaks, but basically its the same stuff they've been trying to get passed since the AWB sunset. Except for a few years after 9/11/2001 when they focused on "bigger issues".

Since there hasn't been a major successful terrorist attack on American soil since then, they have decided its time to go back to telling America the biggest threat to our personal safety is people owning guns, and specifically the "bad guns" such as "assault weapons".

Note the proposed VA law still uses the "evil features" formula. Semi autos are only "assault weapons" if they have certain features. I wonder how much time their staffers spent going though gun data with a "choose this, not that" list to fill??

I note that a semi auto pistol that is too HEAVY is an assault weapon. All you Desert Eagle owners, take note!

Take at look at the ban of shotguns with revolving cylinders. See if there's language attached to that that include "like kind" or "substantially similar to" phrases. That's their ground work for banning revolvers, AFTER they get rid of semi autos.

WA state passed a law last election cycle, and while it wasn't a ban this NOW it turned every single semi auto rifle in the state into a "semi automatic assault rifle" in legal definition. Imposes extra waiting periods, background checks, cost, training requirement and several other things. EVERY SINGLE semi auto rifle, no matter the age, caliber or design, military style or not.

They did this with the definition in the law which was essentially, any rifle that use force from the fired cartridge to reload the chamber. There were no "if it has this feature it is, and if it doesn't it isn't" They just took the base definition of ALL semi auto firearms and applied it to turn everything semi auto and a rifle into a "semiautomatic assault rifle".

Apparently the folks looking to outlaw guns in WA are taking a slightly slower approach than those in VA.
Along with a lot of your other points, I definitely agree that a lack of a major successful attack breeds major complacency... to the point it is advantageous to those working against us. I believe even a minor attack... of course it's only minor to those not in the kill zone, would be enough to stop, at least temporarily, this push like the one in VA.

I do hold out some hope for us... we have a chance to gain more ground. I just can't help but recognize the severity of the threat/left... and VA is practically my second home state. There may be a few days a month that I don't enter VA.
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