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Old November 13, 2000, 12:18 AM   #1
dragontooth73
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First off I'd like to say that I will henceforth stop whining about life. I've done a bit too much of that lately.

Second off I know I said I'd disappear for a while, but that was before my roommate got stuck in Tel Aviv. Roomie comes back Tuesday, so that's why I've been posting a lot.

Now as for the topic at hand:

I've lived in countries where guns are rare (Japan, Canada) where CCW is next to impossible (Hawai'i) and traveled where I'd never get very far with them (Europe) ... now walking home last night in the cold through a slum area, having a crack dealer try to sell me a rock and having the local police contingent (fat, dumb, myopic) search me and let him walk, I had a lot of time in between that incident and when I got back home to think about what I've got in my pockets.

I usually carry knuckledusters. I'm very choosy about design because I have relatively delicate hands and I've bruised fingers punching with them. I've already mentioned the "F-bar" punching tool/keychain, which is currently in the hands of my fiancee over in LA. Right now all I use is a keychain, a big fat ring I can put into my hands and have the keys stick out between my knuckles. That's it. No folding knives, no mace, no baton.

What do you carry besides your CCWs? If you had a choice, what would you prefer to have in your pockets? I got off very lucky last night because I only had the keychain in my pockets - if I had any of my usual kit I'd have had a tough time. I've heard LASur5er mention socks with soap bars in them. Would you insist on a folding knife? Have you any experience with anything else?

And please note that I'm not trying to break any laws or encouraging them to be broken. I travel so damn much that local ordinances are impossible for me to check anyways; I can't be bothered to ask if a 4 inch balisong knife is legal or not in Holland, for example. Besides I don't like small blades as a general rule; I prefer something with knockout ability, like a swiss army knife on the temple.

Thoughts?
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Old November 15, 2000, 12:54 PM   #2
dragontooth73
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hooray ... life is back to normal
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Old November 15, 2000, 01:33 PM   #3
David Scott
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I would suggest an elegant walking stick, whose style masks its strength. I'd rather have a weapon that can keep someone out of contact distance. The old British sport of single-stick playing was designed around the use of a walking stick as a weapon.
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Old November 15, 2000, 02:46 PM   #4
ctdonath
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Go study the "kubotan" - lets you use a MiniMag flashlight as a "pain compliance device".
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Old November 15, 2000, 04:23 PM   #5
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In the winter, when vest season comes around, I carry a can of spray. Otherwise, I carry a serrated Spyderco Endura, a CRKT M16 with the plain tanto blade, and swiss army knife. I can fix or cut darn near anything. Now if I can just rig up a duct tape dispenser, I'll be ready for McGuyver II...


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Old November 15, 2000, 05:17 PM   #6
voodoo
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I always carry a folding knife with me, not so much as a weapon but as a tool. I use my knife all the time, just never as a weapon...yet. The fact that it does make an effective weapon is an added benefit. FWIW, I'd hesitate using my knife if I know my opponent also has a knife. Knife fights, unless one is trained, always tend to end up with both combatants cut - severly in many cases.

I also carry pepper spray. Great stuff, though it's effects can be unpredictable. Some people aren't affected by it.

I also carry a Rotring pen. Machined out of solid brass, it's what I consider the ultimate "tactical" pen.

Keys can be, and are,very formidable weapons. I don't stick them between the webbing of my fingers (like you see in the movies). I just take my longest, pointiest key and pinch it between my thumb and forefinger. I can use it for slashing, or if you're really in my face, poke your eye out. I have a buddy that carries his keys on a full size carabiner, using the carabiner as a knuckleduster.



[This message has been edited by voodoo (edited November 15, 2000).]
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Old November 15, 2000, 07:25 PM   #7
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A nice, innocent folding knife (nothing labelled combat or tactical), an ASP KeyDefender and a stout, albeit elegant, walking stick.

Be advised that some States (voted for Gore) won't let anyone but military or law enforcement carry OC spray -- check your local regulations.

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Old November 15, 2000, 08:40 PM   #8
justice4all
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I don't "carry" him, but I am often accompanied by my 95# Chesapeake Bay Retriever, Ragnar Buckshot Justice. He's a very well-behaved dog, and very good at distinguishing between friend or foe. He doesn't spaz at everyone and everything, but he switches to a defensive mode when people come out of unusual places, or when we are camping. But basically he is my best friend, with the added benefit of being an effective deterrent.

Occassionally, I carry a knife that I can open quickly and with one hand. I've been considering carrying some sort of spray. My keychain has a whistle, for calling my dog, getting people's attention, and because I sometimes find myself deep in the Colorado Rockies, and it's easy to get lost.
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Old November 15, 2000, 08:53 PM   #9
George Hill
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A good sturdy folding knife is essential.
The make or model do not matter as long as it is made with some quality to it.
It must be able to cut well, open one handed, and have a lock strong enough to not let you cut off your own fingers.
You can spend 40 or 400 depending on your taste.
Mine are generally in the 60 to 170 range. I like good working knives that can do double duty as a fighting knife... and not fighting knives that try to do work.
My personal favorites are the Benchmade AFCK and Mini AFCK... and the Spyderco Endura, Delica and Native. A Spyderco Wegner Jr is on my belt right now... But I understand these are out of production. Too bad - sweet knife.

The knife is man's oldest tool - and I dont think a day has gone by that I didn't use one.
Today its proven its merit in helping me open a couple boxes, slice an apple, open a letter, and trim a hangnail.
So - as a Weapon... its only a weapon should I use it as one.
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Old November 15, 2000, 09:43 PM   #10
Spectre
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I currently carry a Native, just like George mentioned. It doesn't look horribly agressive, but is well-suited for the task.

I also carry my full-size carabiner/keys. I often carry these in a back pocket. I began carrying a carabiner after an ex-infantry friend told me about using one on a troublemaking drunk in the barracks. I can dent softer woods with a half-hearted swing.

A good stick is hard to beat, easy to find, and is often congruent with your surroundings.

A good pen, on the other hand, can always be with you. 10 minutes of practice with one, or a similar object, 3 times a week, will soon have you proficient. You can look for "yarawa" stick techniques, or "eda koppo" movements from the old koryu lineages.
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Old November 16, 2000, 04:26 AM   #11
dragontooth73
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A pen ... I always have one. There's a Chinese weapon that looks like a pen with a swivel ring attached to it in the middle; middle finger slots through it, enabling it to be held lengthwise for poking at pressure points, or flipped outwards to serve as a knuckleduster. Honestly though I'm going to have to find some info on Pen-fu. Suggestions anyone?

I used to have a dog too, a samoyed. He died I need a new dog ... *sniff* sorry I get sentimental over dogs.

Anyways ... a stick ... that's something I'll probably forget ... I'm forgetful nowadays ... especially in COLD weather ... voodoo, when I use my keys I make sure the non-serrated part is away from the webbing of my hand and I only have one poking through between the index and the middle finger. It's worked for me in the past ... poking though seems to be the universal theme though (like in Pen-fu) ... any more tips on Key-fu?

I carried a minimag flashlight for the past 3 years in a pocket ... recently stopped ... will have to get a new one now. Why didn't I ever think of that as a weapon in itself? Dumb me ...

Anyways there seems to be

Pen-fu
Key-fu
Flashlight-fu
Stick-fu
Dog-fu

I think as for folding knives, I'm going to have to get something with a nice clip ... like the Duane Dieter CQB knife that I can put inside my waistband ... just in case I get one of those annoying late night searches again. Speaking of which in patting me down they used bare hands and fingers in my pockets. No real patdown on my breast pockets or anything. and they didn't have me with hands on a wall, just raised above my shoulders. I could have taken both of them easily. Some LEOs it seems are ... dumb.

By the way with that much stuff in my pockets, how will I ever get to my keys? Where will the dog fit in?
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Old November 16, 2000, 07:26 AM   #12
Dave McC
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I learned working in prisons, that just about anything can be used as a weapon. I carried a Bic Pen in my shirt pocket for years with the cap off the tip, for use in a grab and stab crisis.

These gentler days,I tend to be better armed, if not prepared. There's a Gerber EZ Out in my jeans, and a Bucklite rides my belt. Since I work in DC and Northern VA as well as Md, getting a CCW permit is not possible,so I take what precautions I can. When I work, there's a Mini Mag in my brief case, and oft a sturdy umbrella.
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Old November 17, 2000, 08:33 AM   #13
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Never without my Spyderco Endura.With me 24/7.
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Old November 18, 2000, 06:25 PM   #14
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In the departments that I've worked for, a pat-down done for Officer Safety is only supposed to hit the areas where you are reasonably expected to carry a weapon: belt line and pockets. A full frisk is only done when someone is taken into custody.

Other places, States and/or departments may have different guidelines, so don't take this as Gospel.

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Old November 18, 2000, 08:17 PM   #15
BIGWINR69
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sounds funny but using a oversized belt buckle works well,spitting in there face diverts there attention,bikers wear motorcycle chains as belts....they are heavy duty and can be used as a club,steel toe boots,and wear rings on your fingers.
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Old November 18, 2000, 09:11 PM   #16
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A yawara stick, particularly one made of a hard plastic, is effective and appears to be innocous.
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Old November 19, 2000, 12:07 AM   #17
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A roll of nickels can be better than nothing and is legal everywhere. Your knuckles are unprotected but it lends support to the finger and hand bones. The extra bit of weight is nice too.
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Old November 19, 2000, 01:01 AM   #18
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LawDog, George Hill, I sincerely apologize if I sounded bitter about the patdown I mentioned in my initial post. Truth is, I didn't mind one bit. Cooperating with the law is really not a problem. What I did mind, is the following:

(1) Upon being approached by the crack dealer, I stopped only long enough to say "no" and walk on (he was blocking my way) ... he followed me, and cut a 180 once he saw the police. They stop me, do not stop him (!?) and when they asked me to empty my pockets, I didn't mind one bit, BUT
(2) What I did mind was, Officer #1 was to my 2 o'clock position. Officer #2 was to my 10 o'clock position. Both were within a yard's distance of where I was standing - if I'd stretched my arms sideways I'd have ELBOWED both of them. They were that close. Neither was really ready at all to ward off any serious attack.

I could have executed any number of drills and seriously hurt both of them. They didn't seem to have the usual panopoly of baton, spray, sidearm. They weren't in a cruiser, but in some sort of paddy wagon clearly marked CHICAGO POLICE. What I did mind was how damn careless both of them were. Now I'm sure that they're much more capable of handling most situations, and maybe I should give them more credit, but they were both obviously

(1) Over 40 by far
(2) Clearly overweight. EXTREMELY by my standards.

In all honesty they put themselves at severe risk and I think it was stupid of them to expose themselves in that way. I hope they learn better fast.

Needless to say, what a Chinese-American like me was doing walking through an all-black Housing Project is another question entirely.

animal, I used to carry coin rolls for that purpose. I loved to use them lengthwise for temple and jaw hits. Problems are:

(1) You end up spending the roll. "Damn I need that issue of 'Playboy' ... wait ... here's some change."
(2) You can't easily get them at airport exchange centers, only at banks. "What do you mean I can't get a roll of fat lira? It's worthless anyways."
(3) They come in plastic roll or paper roll. Overseas, plastic is more common. It tends to scratch and unravel; I pass a lighter over it to fuse the edges. Paper ... well in a rainy day it goes mush.

Anyways, when I get a free day I am going knife shopping asap ... I'd love to get that curved knife by Cold Steel,
http://www.coldsteel.com/scimitar.html ... but

(1) I don't like Cold Steel. I keep on hearing how much of a jerk Lynn Thompson is and how the products are grossly overpriced.
(2) I don't like the idea of curved knives in folding configurations.
(3) I seriously doubt the sanity of a company that makes and pitches boar spears and assegais.

BUt I'll probably get it anyways ... *sigh*
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Old November 19, 2000, 02:32 AM   #19
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First off... My condolences on the loss of your Sammy! I've got a Sammy / Golden retriever mix that's my `buddy' and I know that losing him would leave a *big* `hole' in my life, too. (Actually *all* the dogs I've had over the years that I've `lost' in various shapes and forms have left `holes' but that is a completely different subject altogether. {WAN GRIN!} And not for here.)


Onto what *I* carry... (Beyond what a CCW means.) It's gotten to the point that I feel `undressed' if I *didn't* have my old Swisschamp in it's case on my left hip along with my *big* ring of keys and other `goodies'. (`Goodies' mean things like my `solitaire' flashlight, diamond strope in it's machined aluminum case, and the like.) On my right hip rides either a SOG `Power pliers' or a Kershaw `visegrip style' multi-tool with the Kershaw residing there the majority of the time. In my left front pocket can be found the `usual?' odd assortment that seems to find it's way into one's pocket but amazingly enough there is always an old, one might even say `antique', round machined aluminum pocket lighter that's *very* close to the size of a roll of nickles and has the added advantage of having both ends, filler cap and `lid', in an almost rounded nosed bullet shape. (Which by `sheer coincidence?' just `happen?' to nicely protrude a `nice?' distance out on either side of my balled up fist. {BSE GRIN!} Finally... *If* `worse come to pass' there is my nice big `trophy' belt buckle on my saddle leather belt. (Oh, did I mention that I can usually be found wearing cowboy boots with `dogger' heels? While `dogger' heels amy not be the `best' for really extended walking with `proper' placement they can ruin someone's day. {CHORTLE!}) Oops! I did forget that I also carry a very nice aluminum cane that while the handpiece looks like the `normal plastic sort of `saw handle' is one that a friend of mine machine out of a good solid chunk of *very* hard aluminum and then put a nice thin, yet very comfortable, rubber like skin on. (I was showing some `nice? young men' one night the `manual of arms' with it and I `slightly slipped up' gave one of them compound fractures of an arm and a leg. As his friends drug him off screaming and hollering they were `complaining' that , "Old man all we wanted was some `spare change'!" Yeah! Right! Then why did you `ask' me with knife in hand was my reply. {BSE GRIN!} When the officer that was in the cruiser across the street finally pried himself out and sauntered over I asked him just why he'd just sat there and watched and then let them get away. His reply was that he was having too much fun watching me work them over and that if I'd just watch they weren't going to get very far. Sure enough another cruiser went rolling by and turned down the street they'd gone down and I heard the officer in that one on his PA telling them to `hit the pavement spreadeagle'. Then the office I was with asked me if I'd like to get into his car and take a little ride and identify them. Shocked, I got into his car and we went around the corner and down a bout a block and a half and there they were. The other officer asked me if these were the ones who'd `accosted' me to which I replied in the affirmative and the two officers bundled them up for a ride, first to a hospital for the one, and off to the `greybar hotel for the others. Finally calming down I asked the first officer if there was anything more and he just offered me a ride to wherever I was staying or to my car explaining that `this isn't a good neighborhood to out in late at night'. Since I wasn't driving that night having come into town on the train I asked if he could take me to a good hotel so that I could rest up before catching my next train connection. He did that and then he gave me his card and told me that if I needed a ride to the station the next day I could just give him a call and he'd gladly come out and do it. [For those wondering just *where* was my luggage... It was already at my destination having gotten there with my wife who had gone ahead of me a few days before. I'd had to spend a couple extra days back where we'd split up at and didn't see any reason to carry anything more than what I was wearing and `usually' carried. *That* one incident was *more* than enough `payback' for all the time I'd spent practicing for years before! I was *very* happy about all the time spent *and* very happy that I'd run across a *real*, and refreshingly honest to boot, Police Officer! [Capitalization of Police Officer *intentional* since he treated me, even though I'd had my doubts at the beginning of our `encounter', as a `fellow human being' and didn't bother to `shuck-n-jive' me.])


So... There are *a lot* of things you can `carry' besides a firearm. And *if* you practice, practice, practice they'll work for you. In *my* case it *wasn't* all the `hardware' I originally thought would be used, and that what some people might have be used, that `saved the day... err... night. It was something that was actually more a part of my day to day life and also something I had practiced with only as an "Oh, BTW, why not give this some practice, too?" I guess that in the end it's what everyone else has said and then some? {GRIN!}



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Old November 19, 2000, 03:13 AM   #20
Viceroy808
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lol ... u sound like a hardware version of "the sharper image" catalog ... i wouldn't be surprised one bit if u had a detachable chainsaw secreted somewhere ... lol

honest police officers are ... wonderful people. make most of the priests in the various parishes i've been in (i'm catholic) look like ... nvm. don't feel like doing hail marys ... anyways ... really ... glad to hear you had such a positive experience ... i've made a committment long ago, once i stop traveling to go apply to my local pd ... reason i haven't yet is because i know once i start i won't be able to go far afield in the world ever again.

i'm going to take a hard look at all my clothes. see where i can hide things. once i do that again i'm going to go get a nice folding knife to replace my lost primary. once i get that squared away i'll get a maglite, and a small multitool. i think that's about it.

"sticks and gas will break them up but knives will never betray me" ... is the way i think about it. so that's that.
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Old November 19, 2000, 05:16 AM   #21
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Almost always have a Spyderco Endura on me... mundane looking. As far as blunt insturments go, unless I can grab a stick or projectile I'll have to be satisfied with the damage elbows can do. Basically my knife is my SHTF scenario weapon when I don't have a pistol.
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Old November 19, 2000, 09:32 AM   #22
Tamara
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One or more of the following, depending on time and place...

1)Monadnock "Persuader" keychain.
2)Small can of OC.
3)Large can of "Dog & Bear Grade" OC.
4)CRKT K.I.S.S., non-serrated, tanto point.
5)Kershaw Ken Onion 'semi-auto' folder, semi-serrated.
6)24" ASP collapsable baton.

Obviously not all at once... But the kubotan and the CRKT are pretty much givens for their utility purposes; the stick and the sharp rock were mankind's first tools and still prove remarkably handy in a myriad of odd ways.
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Old November 21, 2000, 12:49 AM   #23
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when i'm w/o my ccw/knife, i carry & drink from a coke bottle;if i can't run away from a bad guy, hopefully bashing the bottle on his head will result in a sharp weapon + the 2 steel pens i always carry.

offtopic, in some public places(mall, beach, etc), i carry my keltec9 in a small fastfood/paper bag; i hold the bottom of the bag which allows me to grasp small fries & muzzle of the gun; an inmate gave me this idea when i used to work as a prison psych. nurse.
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Old November 21, 2000, 03:16 AM   #24
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Another Vote for Spyderco

I agree with everything Krept wrote, except instead of an Endura, I go with a Delica. Delica seems to be acceptable in more jurisdictions than an Endura. At the same time, it is still long enough to be effective.

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Old November 21, 2000, 06:07 PM   #25
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Gee - I haven't seen a glass-bottled coke in a long time... If I'm out for a walk, I may pick up a bottle of wine - More expensive, but hey, it'll be used sooner or later... I also tend to wear boots - And, since I'm on that subject, let me put in a plug for the Belleville Shoe Company's combat boots - These are new style, and are among the most comfortable boots (including a $250+ pair of Asolo hiking boots) I've ever worn. They've got a web site. Search for it.

I don't like steel toes.

I also occasionally use an adjustable aluminum cane. I've been considering rendering it non-adjustable via a treatment of epoxy and lead shot...

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