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Old November 19, 2000, 03:17 AM   #1
Viceroy808
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I lost my dog about a decade ago and I've always thought of adopting a new one once I settle down. Probably another samoyed - I have a fondness for that breed. Thing is, I need to know if obedience/attack dog schools work? My old dog was the gentlest thing in the neighborhood ... never got into a fight ... i basically defended it with a bb gun from all manner of four-legged evil ... i'd be damned if i sent my dog to a school and it came back a snarling, raving tasmanian devil, or worse, a drunken armadillo ... anyone have experience or advice?

LASur5er I'll write you back soon ... promise.
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Old November 19, 2000, 06:55 AM   #2
fubsy
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I wouldnt do it.....depending on the dog, it might not have the level of aggression in it to be trained even up to the standards of a police K-9 dog. If you have one that is and you train it to be aggressive to people, you have a weapon with the mind of a two year old human at best. It will become an animal that you will have to have constant control over its environment and surroundings. Not that you shouldnt with all dogs, but in a protection dog case even a greater degree of control is needed, you must work this dog continously, in untrained hands or unwilling hands this dog can be dangerous to most everyone. Now Im not against protection trained dogs, I like them, but you have to accept and realize the commitment it will take from you to possess and maintain such an animal. With people today sueing companys for spilling their coffee on themselves, its an added risk that I wouldnt take. I generally just work with mine for obeidence, I do not train them to be aggressive at all, if anything I restrict some of that. I generally work about every other day for 5-10 mins., only with each dog. I use them primarily as a warning device.....fubsy....
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Old November 19, 2000, 08:37 AM   #3
johnr
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Viceroy808- what you need is a protection dog, not an attack dog.
I'm an old Schultzhund handler-- that's a K-9 who speaks German so the bad guy can't confuse him with bogus commands.
You & your dog train together, as a unit. Properly trained & handled, the dog will guard you, pin suspects, track, etc. It does require a pretty big, aggressive dog, and a handler mentally hard enough to control the dog-- it's not for every person, or dog.
Check in with your local animal shelter ( or maybe your vet ) to find the nearest Schultzhund chapter, and talk to them about training, suitable breeds, etc.
There is a down side, though-- I look out my kitchen window to the stone that reads "Clancy--1983-1990
Schultzhund-Companion-Friend" and I still grieve for him like a child...
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Old November 19, 2000, 10:38 AM   #4
C.R.Sam
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What fubsy said. Liability exposure exceeds the benefeits.

Sam..
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Old November 19, 2000, 12:10 PM   #5
Viceroy808
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fubsy, sam ... thanks ... i'll keep it in mind ... don't want the dog to be ordered "put down" by some court ...

johnr ... thank you for the info ... prayers for your dog
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Old November 19, 2000, 04:04 PM   #6
MTAA
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Attack dog is a dog thats been abused and tortured to be mean and is uncontrollable, "protection" dog is what your looking for. Go to http://www.molossermania.com if you want to learn about protection dogs.
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Old November 19, 2000, 07:40 PM   #7
Viceroy808
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sorry if i used the wrong term here ... i have NO experience with dogs other than with the ones formed from natural bonding (feeding, walking, vet trips) and all ... "attack dog" as i understand is just about as bad as "offensive knife" i think ... thank you everyone for the correction.

i do NOT wish to abuse, torture, or maim a dog that trusts me. if "protection dog" is the right way to go about it, then that's what i'm going to look for ... a way to make my (future) dog into something like that.
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Old November 21, 2000, 05:59 PM   #8
Marshal
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We live outside the city on several acres. We're just far enough out to where the burglary rate is higher than many parts of the city. After the first time we were burgled, we got a protection trained German Shepherd. We participated in his training and used German commands. We then got another Shepherd. Why two? Because the first one, Marshal Dillon, was a protection dog trained to protect his family - us. So when the burglars kicked in the front door one day when we weren't home, he just sat there and watched. He didn't need to protect us, because we weren't there. His trainer, who trains K-9s for a living, told us that dogs usually will be suited either for protection of people, or protection of territory. It's a rare dog that can be trained to do both well. So we got him a companion - this time trained to protect the perimeter of our place. The combination worked the next time the bad guys tried to come in. No one has tried since. Unfortunately, they have both passed on, and we miss them; they were great dogs.

What the others have said about control is correct. You have to love dogs, pay attention to them, and be especially careful about visitors - legitimate ones, anyway. We had to put the dogs in their kennel when the kids friends came over to play. We also posted warnings on our fences and gate. We haven't replaced the dogs because we can't give them that kind of time anymore.

The great thing about our place is that we keep two horses belonging to sheriff's deputies who ride horse patrol in county neighborhoods every two weeks. They come out in their patrol cars to feed the animals, and bring the department trailer when they go on horse patrol. It's good for the whole neighborhood. It doesn't mean deputies can get there any faster, but merely being present and visible has made a difference.
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Old November 21, 2000, 06:20 PM   #9
nbk2000
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If you get a protection dog than you need to realize that it may be killed doing what it's been trained to do, protect you.

So I wouldn't get emotionally attached to it. Obviously it would be easy to get attached to it like a pet but I'd treat it like any other weapon, like a gun or knife. Something dangerous that needs careful and respectful handling and that may have to be damaged or destroyed in combat.

Dogs are very useful for defense (or offense) since they're self-targeting and self-guided weapons. Think of them as such because if you get emotionally attached to it you might hesitate to deploy it as the weapon it is. Hesitation in combat equals death.

Scenario:

Your asleep at home with your wife, your dog sleeping at the foot of the bed, when you are awoken by the sound of breaking glass. You get up and see that there's a truck outside that belongs to your wifes ex-husband who swore he would kill her one day. Now you know who's inside and what he intends to do.

Your dog is up and scratching at the door, ready to attack the intruder, but you know the ex is armed (fellow gun-nut) and the dog will be killed if you let him out.

Do you let the dog out to attack the intruder and while it's taking the bullets, you bring up the rear and take out the ex who's busy with the dog? Or do you keep the bedroom door closed because you don't want fido to get killed, all the while hoping the ex doesn't come busting in guns blazing?

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Old November 21, 2000, 10:52 PM   #10
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Good point NBK2000, however, in your particular scenario, if your potential attacker is unaware of your presence, and you have a firearm, you have the upper hand. More often then not, just the sound of the dog barking is enough to deter a would be attacker. No way would I waste my "tool" if I knew the guy was armed. I'd call the cops, get into position where i could fire on him, and if I saw a "grave danger" I would take care of business.

Your post reminded me of a personal situation that drives me nuts. I moved into an apartment that doesn't allow pets, so, for the meantime my parents have my dog. Shes a really sweet pitbull, and like many other pits, is a poor protection dog. Anyways, my parents are in the jewelry business, their building is comprised mostly of wholesale jewelers and has lax security. Three people have been robbed on their floor, the next door jewelers most recently, the owner was shot point blank in the face. Most of the jewelers are gunowners, naturally, my parents however, the old hippies turned yuppies that they are, abhor guns. The last time I was at their office, I asked them what kind of security they had. "We've got Daisy (my dog)!" "She'd be shot instantly" I said...my mom responded "But isn't she a pitbull?"........ God I hate the media.... They also have a security door, its glass ! But my mom said it was bullet proof, I could break it one one kick, and I offered to prove it, she declined.

Well, it sucks knowing that not only are my parents sitting ducks but so is my dog (I actually like the dog more, I know, I'm evil). Just owning a "tough" breed isn't enough, you have to train them hard and like any tool, know when its best to use them. A well trained Shepard is better than any poorly trained Fila, Dogo, or Presa.
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Old November 22, 2000, 10:33 AM   #11
nbk2000
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The ex-husband knows of your presence in the house. All stalkers know about the new "intruder" in the life of his "love". So he knows you're there, and let's assume that you DON'T have a gun, it's at the smithy being repaired or something. You won't have a gun on you 100% of your life and that's when s*** usually happens.

You could try holing up in the bedroom which is the first place he'll look for you in the middle of the night and call 911 (what's the likelyhood of them arriving in time? ). It's not an armored safe room either because you just moved in.

Or you could let the dog out. The dog will find the intruder and keep him busy while you climb out the bedroom window and run away. Or you follow right behind the dog and bean the ex long distance with a paper weight (or something else very heavy) while the dog is chewing on his arm.
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Old November 22, 2000, 11:16 AM   #12
Dave R
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Viceroy, may I suggest an Akita as a defense dog? They were bred in Japan to care for the Emporers' children. They are affectionate toward their family, even-tempered and protection-prone. Especially good with children. Very Politically Correct, too. The neighbors won't worry like they would with a pitbull or doberman.

They tend to be non-violent in their protective mode. For example, when my son was taking our Akita for a walk, one of the neighborhood "yippy dogs" got loose and came to investigate my son--very energetically. The Akita positioned herself between the yipper and my son, and when the yipper approached, she calmly put out a big paw (95lbs behind that paw), knocked the yipper down and held her down until my son pulled her back. Ears forward the whole time.

They have a LOUD bark. The one night our Akita (possibly) foiled a (possible) break-in, I was awaken by a bark so loud I thought she was in the room with me. Had never heard her bark that loud before. Found her by the back door with the door ajar and her hackles raised. She barked again for my benefit and I almost soiled myself. No footprints or other evidence found, but my wife thought she saw a shadow pass over the window very fast just after the bark... Glad we never found more.

I knew OJ was guilty when I learned he had two Akitas and they made no unusual noises the night of the murder. Had a stranger been on the property, those two dogs would've set off car alarms all over the valley.

They are also very athletic dogs. Though they sometimes appear lethargic, they are amazingly quick, especially considering their size. Our dog has killed squirrels and two ducks!! (how does a dog catch a duck??)

As you can see, we are very fond of our Akita.
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Old November 22, 2000, 12:33 PM   #13
Viceroy808
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That's an idea worth considering ... thank you Hadn't realized it ... so set on samoyeds. Akita is now on my top 3 list
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Old November 22, 2000, 03:16 PM   #14
MTAA
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Akitas are great dogs, and the chicks dig em. It's a Spitz type dog like the Samoyed. Large though, not apartment dogs.
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Old November 23, 2000, 02:13 AM   #15
Viceroy808
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I know, I used to live in Japan ... Akita means "Autumn Fields" ... it's a northern Japanese province, famed for its sweet rice and beautiful women (seriously)

Cute dogs. They're not that large though in Japan. Cute curved tails too

I didn't know they were such great guard dogs I learned something good today.
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Old November 24, 2000, 12:24 PM   #16
Robert Teesdale
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My own situation

To All:

Interesting threads here. I'd like to drop my own $.02 into this one....

My wife and I have two dogs. One's still a pup; 1/4 chow, 3/4 husky. A useless fool when it comes to protectiveness... he's not adult enough yet.

His father, on the other hand - 1/2 chow, 1/2 husky - is the sweetest, gentlest animal you'll ever meet.

But don't try to come in the house when we're not home!

He's about 75 pounds, lots of black hair, and has a powerful bite. Deep impressive bark. Protective, too. We love the dog tremendously - but in a situation where we have an aggressive home invader, my wife and I are both ready to shoot THROUGH the dog if we have to.

If it comes down to terminating a threat to the lives of human beings in the household, the dog is utterly expendable. I'll carry his body up the mountains here in Colorado, and bury him there with pride and gratitude.

I don't think it would ever come to that. But that's the plan.

Best regards,

Robert Teesdale
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http://www.teesdale.com
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Old November 24, 2000, 11:00 PM   #17
blackamos
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Wile I am typing this a Black German Sheapard is at my feet. I have always had hunting dogs before this one (my partner gave me this one as a gift) and he is the best dog I have ever owned, great with kids, gentle with my girl freind, tough as nails if he has to be. Look in to one and you can not go wrong!
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