9mm +P

tac_driver · January 30, 2009, 11:56 AM

Trying to duplicate the speer 124gr. 9mm +p gold dot defensive round.
using MG 124gr bullet over bullseye, unique or WW231 the 3 powders i have.
But finding data for this round is turning out to be a chore. Easy to find +P
data in 38 special and 45ACP.
Please point me to some sources for 9mm +p loads. Thanks

goodspeed(TPF) · January 30, 2009, 12:17 PM

Umm, I would have to say that in my extensive experience with the HOT 9 that you are better off buying commercial ammo if you want +P pressures. (Cor-Bon) A second alternative would be to use AA-5 and or AA-7 and check in to the Lapua: Vihtavuori powders for faster speeds. If you do not know what you are doing you can get yourself into trouble really fast with loading 9mm past SAAMI spec pressures. (I am not saying that "YOU" do not know what you are doing, I do not presume:-) I have loaded pretty much ALL of the HOT 9s out there and have to say that the difference between BANG and BOOM is a fine line. I spoke to a few ammo loaders on HOT 9 loadings years ago and have even gone so far as blending powders myself to achieve desired results. I have NOT had any mishaps in my over 20yr experience with reloading (looks for piece of wood to knock on) but I have seen firsthand what can happen with the wrong recipe in 9mm. Proceed very cautiously my friend. Vihtavuori would be my best recomendation for what I think you are looking for. -Goodspeed

P.S. IMHO I would NOT use any of the powders you have listed. I have experience with all 3.

P.P.S. Two to the body, one to the groin. ;-)

45Marlin carbine · January 30, 2009, 02:30 PM

'MG"? is what type?
I load +P jacketed 124gr useing Power Pistol. usually Golden Sabres

dlb435 · January 30, 2009, 03:01 PM

I have looked in vain for +p or +p+ load formulas and found nothing. Nobody wants the liability involved with really hot loads. I can tell you that you are looking for a chrony reading of about 1200~1290 fps for +p+. Your choice of 115 or 124 grain bullet. You need a minimum of a 4" barrel and really good pistol. Don't try these loads in anything but a top quality modern gun. These loads will shorten you guns life a lot.
The limiting factor is the CPU (copper pressure units) 42,000 is the absolute max before your gun fails. You can examine your spent brass to see if your pushing the limit. Your reloading manual should have pictures of over pressure load damage to the case. Slower burning powders can help but only if your barrel is long enough. I had worked up a load for a 9mm Uzi that clocked 1500fps, but I used a slower powder and had a 16" barrel. I had no problems with over pressure.
Good luck!

Jimbo-Indy · January 30, 2009, 03:39 PM

I load 124 gr. Rainier plated flatpoints over Power Pistol for my 9mm bowling pin load. Can't remember the exact powder grains but it is in the Lee manual. Getting high 1100s out of a High Power. Also works great in a S&W 639. Fairly hot load. The fire is neat in the evening.

goodspeed(TPF) · January 30, 2009, 03:39 PM

One final note. Whatever you do DO NOT go by "flattened primers" or "gee, I think my cases are starting to look bad" as these are NOT a reliable indication of pressures that are to high. With all new components a friend of mine loaded up what he thought was "just a little bit hotter" 115gr 9mm. The first three rounds sounded really ferocious with a lot of muzzle flash to boot. He was having a blast let me tell you. I remember being slightly behind him and a little to the left that day. He was shooting right handed and I usually stand this way with my students so it's natural for me. I remember distinctly the first three rounds.

1) BANG! "Woah!" (brass looked absolutely fine)
2) BANG! "Yeeow!" (brass looked absolutely fine)
3) BANG! "WOOO!" "Heh, heh." (brass looked absolutely fine)
4) BOOM! "MOTHER******!"

After the 4th shot I noticed right away something was wrong due to the HV blood spatter on the wall right next to us. And because the side of the slide/frame was peeled like a banana. He survived and shoots lefty now. Tough lesson to learn. After I got his things home with me I pulled all of his loaded ammo and it turns out he calculated wrong. All of his ammunition was WAAAAY higher than any sane person would load. A simple thing like math can bite you badly. I am not saying this can't happen to any of us at any time. What I am saying is that the first three casings looked ABSOLUTELY FINE. Please do NOT rely upon this method to tell you when to STOP due to high pressures with your 9mm loadings.

Please stick to what is printed in current reloading manuals. Please. -Goodspeed

Alleykat · January 31, 2009, 09:26 AM

Quote:

The limiting factor is the CPU (copper pressure units) 42,000 is the absolute max before your gun fails.

Sounds authoritative, all right, but patently fallacious! Proof rounds have a lot more pressure than you indicate. The case will fail way before the firearm will.

To the OP: Get yourself some AA#5. Keep adding powder slowly, until you either reach your "doesn't make any sense to me" velocity goal, or you blow up your pistol.

mnw42 · January 31, 2009, 10:43 AM

You always upgrade to .38 Super

zxcvbob · January 31, 2009, 10:54 AM

Get Quickload software and you can calculate your own load data using whatever parameters you want.

My BHP has a 32# hammer spring, so it likes hot ammo. I tend to go straight to the max published standard loads and that's about right. I'm thinking about ordering a 26# spring to see if that lightens the trigger, then I'll have to reduce my loads a little so I don't beat the slide to death.

I think Pat's Reloading had some Israeli 9mm SMG ammo that was loaded really hot. You might check and see if they still have some.

nate45 · January 31, 2009, 10:56 AM

This has been a safe load in my pistols. I need to take it out and chronograph it, but the old hand and ear chrono say its pretty zippy.

124 grain Gold Dot over 6.7 grains of Power Pistol, virgin Starline brass and Winchester Small pistol primers.

I don't know if it is P+ or not, but as a comparison I use the 135 grain Gold Dot SB and 5.8 grains of Power Pistol as a max +P load in .38 Special.

edit: One drawback, I fired that 6.7 grain 9 mm load just after dusk and it has alot of flash

wncchester · January 31, 2009, 12:04 PM

Purely personal opinion: Anyone who recognises the need for a 9mm+P load for "defense" should also understand the desirablity of going to a .45 ACP.

Alleykat · January 31, 2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Purely personal opinion: Anyone who recognises the need for a 9mm+P load for "defense" should also understand the desirablity of going to a .45 ACP.

I own several .45s and a few 9s. I trust my life daily to a G26. Carried a G30 for a few years, until I "matured".

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · January 31, 2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Purely personal opinion: Anyone who recognises the need for a 9mm+P load for "defense" should also understand the desirablity of going to a .45 ACP.

I would rather have more rounds than more stopping power. You think you are a great shot and won't need all those rounds....? Hopefully you are never in a position you actually need to use your pistol for self-defense...self-defense shooting and shooting at the range with your buddies is 2 COMPLETELY different scenarios. I understand that this is your opinion, and I respect it. I have stated my opinion.

wncchester · January 31, 2009, 09:07 PM

"You think you are a great shot and won't need all those rounds....?"

Not at all, you seem to have missed my point.

I just don't think missing 15 times and maybe hitting once with a .38+P Special with a light bullet is as effective as hitting once with a small boulder.

Missing won't save anyone. Personal marksmanship at any level can improve. The maximum effeciveness of the weapon/ammo won't. The FBI deternined in a fire fight in Miami several years back that the 9mm was a poor choice for combat in the streets, that's what led them half-way back to the ideal balance for a pistol cartridge with the .40 S&W.

It's worth mentioning that, after a LOT of critical expericence over the last several years, many of our GIs in the sandbox have come to agree with me!

Good luck...

goodspeed(TPF) · January 31, 2009, 10:05 PM

Way to hijack a thread guys. I think the OP is genuinely looking for some valid information on the subject. Let's try to stay on topic. Thank you. -Goodspeed

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · February 1, 2009, 02:10 AM

The FBI determined that the 9mm was not good for street combat???? OK then why do hundreds of PDs across the country still employ the 9mm?? You are right...personal marksmanship can improve....BUT how will you know if you can perform under rigorous conditions (ie self defense)? I am just saying that I would rather have 18 or 20 shots at hitting a target. Couple this with +p rounds and you will have higher velocities and more muzzle energy = more stopping power. We will probably never agree on this subject....so we should end it here. We can agree to disagree...how about that???!!!

Sorry for hijacking the thread!

dlb435 · February 2, 2009, 04:16 PM

Proof rounds are a one time deal at the factory (and only in Europe). As noted above, your brass can look just fine even when you have pushed the limit. +P+ loads can be very tricky. For hangun use, I just buy them. Why take the risk? Most published 9mm loads don't exceed 33,800 CUP.
As for 9mm carbines, slow burning powders and long barrels can easily get a bullet moving. If you really want to try your own +P+ loads you may want to build a shooting fixture and pull the triger from 10 feet away.
Just one little legal note: If you use your own homemade ammo to stop a criminal he, or his family, may sue you for making "killer ammo". If you use ready made defense rounds, you don't have that risk. Also, +P+ ammo is not as good as shot placement. Why not make more practice rounds at a safe load and get in more shooting time?

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · February 2, 2009, 04:33 PM

+1 on the leagl note!!! It is sad, but true!:barf:

Regular Joe · February 2, 2009, 04:58 PM

I think it unwise to struggle for the last few FPS, especially when you're using a powder that can spike in pressure with a very small increase in charge weight. I find that Blue Dot is "the right" powder for my hot 124 gr. 9mm loads, because pressure builds very evenly as charge weight increases, and it remains low in relation to others, even at max. Alliant says I'm getting 1,238 fps with 7.9 gr. The case is FULL at that point. That's over 400 ft./lbs. energy, with a 4" barrel. There just isn't any need for more than that, if you know which way to point the gun. IMO, this is the correct load for 9mm, period.
For 115 gr. bullets, I find that HS-6 is my choice. Hodgdon says that 7.0 gr. drives a 115 gr. JHP @ 1,234 fps., while pressure is just 29,400 CUP. I really like the Nosler 115 gr. JHP with that load.
When you pay attention to burn rate and pressure, the "+P+" is a bit of a misnomer. You don't have to exceed design pressure to optimize performance, nor should you, EVER.
Believing that the installation of a heavier recoil spring is a viable approach to gaining anything is totally fallacious. While the slide won't bang as hard on recoil, it slams closed with greater force, and this is battering defined.
9mm is my handgun caliber of choice. If you want more power, move to a cartridge that was designed from inception to be more powerful. As for the caliber debate, all I have to say to anyone who doubts the capability of properly loaded 9mm is "want some?"

zxcvbob · February 2, 2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Believing that the installation of a heavier recoil spring is a viable approach to gaining anything is totally fallacious. While the slide won't bang as hard on recoil, it slams closed with greater force, and this is battering defined.

A heavier hammer spring absorbs recoil and shouldn't much affect how hard the slide slams closed.

Also, I've found Blue Dot to be very "peaky" in other calibers; that's why I've stayed away from it in 9mm.

Good thing there are so many powders that work in 9mm. Everyone can have a different favorite.

dlb435 · February 2, 2009, 07:09 PM

"For 115 gr. bullets, I find that HS-6 is my choice. Hodgdon says that 7.0 gr. drives a 115 gr. JHP @ 1,234 fps., while pressure is just 29,400 CUP. I really like the Nosler 115 gr. JHP with that load."- Regular Joe
Hey, thanks for that load data! Sounds like a great performer. What is you LOL?

tac_driver · February 3, 2009, 12:58 PM

9MM+P
the link above will take you to the round i'm talking about.
It says the muzzle velocity is running at 1220 fps.
These are my defense rounds.
Shooting them from a glock 19.
Want to load some of my own for practice and recoil management.
Will not be shooting these in self-defense that is what the factory rounds are for.
I have 3 powders i work with Bullseye, Unique and W231. 4# each. Duplicated the 38 spcl +P 135gr gold dot round using Unique.
Looking to do the same for 9mm.

Alleykat · February 3, 2009, 05:26 PM

If one uses a recoil spring of proper weight, per, for example, Wolff Springs' guidelines, then one need not worry about rearward or forward battering.

1911 Shooter · February 3, 2009, 06:07 PM

Foer self defense, My full Uzi likes those hot loads

January 30, 2009, 11:56 AM	#1
tac_driver Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 61	9mm +P Trying to duplicate the speer 124gr. 9mm +p gold dot defensive round. using MG 124gr bullet over bullseye, unique or WW231 the 3 powders i have. But finding data for this round is turning out to be a chore. Easy to find +P data in 38 special and 45ACP. Please point me to some sources for 9mm +p loads. Thanks __________________ http://home.roadrunner.com/~cuttingedgz/ 22/45 Ruger S&W 640 Glock 21SF,S&W 67 Combat,Colt series 80 Combat,Glock 19

January 30, 2009, 12:17 PM	#2
goodspeed(TPF) Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 1,162	Umm, I would have to say that in my extensive experience with the HOT 9 that you are better off buying commercial ammo if you want +P pressures. (Cor-Bon) A second alternative would be to use AA-5 and or AA-7 and check in to the Lapua: Vihtavuori powders for faster speeds. If you do not know what you are doing you can get yourself into trouble really fast with loading 9mm past SAAMI spec pressures. (I am not saying that "YOU" do not know what you are doing, I do not presume:-) I have loaded pretty much ALL of the HOT 9s out there and have to say that the difference between BANG and BOOM is a fine line. I spoke to a few ammo loaders on HOT 9 loadings years ago and have even gone so far as blending powders myself to achieve desired results. I have NOT had any mishaps in my over 20yr experience with reloading (looks for piece of wood to knock on) but I have seen firsthand what can happen with the wrong recipe in 9mm. Proceed very cautiously my friend. Vihtavuori would be my best recomendation for what I think you are looking for. -Goodspeed P.S. IMHO I would NOT use any of the powders you have listed. I have experience with all 3. P.P.S. Two to the body, one to the groin. ;-) __________________ It's a trick. Get an axe. http://www.thepiratefleet.com/index.shtml

January 30, 2009, 03:39 PM	#6
goodspeed(TPF) Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 1,162	One final note. Whatever you do DO NOT go by "flattened primers" or "gee, I think my cases are starting to look bad" as these are NOT a reliable indication of pressures that are to high. With all new components a friend of mine loaded up what he thought was "just a little bit hotter" 115gr 9mm. The first three rounds sounded really ferocious with a lot of muzzle flash to boot. He was having a blast let me tell you. I remember being slightly behind him and a little to the left that day. He was shooting right handed and I usually stand this way with my students so it's natural for me. I remember distinctly the first three rounds. 1) BANG! "Woah!" (brass looked absolutely fine) 2) BANG! "Yeeow!" (brass looked absolutely fine) 3) BANG! "WOOO!" "Heh, heh." (brass looked absolutely fine) 4) BOOM! "MOTHER******!" After the 4th shot I noticed right away something was wrong due to the HV blood spatter on the wall right next to us. And because the side of the slide/frame was peeled like a banana. He survived and shoots lefty now. Tough lesson to learn. After I got his things home with me I pulled all of his loaded ammo and it turns out he calculated wrong. All of his ammunition was WAAAAY higher than any sane person would load. A simple thing like math can bite you badly. I am not saying this can't happen to any of us at any time. What I am saying is that the first three casings looked ABSOLUTELY FINE. Please do NOT rely upon this method to tell you when to STOP due to high pressures with your 9mm loadings. Please stick to what is printed in current reloading manuals. Please. -Goodspeed __________________ It's a trick. Get an axe. http://www.thepiratefleet.com/index.shtml

January 31, 2009, 10:54 AM	#9
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	Get Quickload software and you can calculate your own load data using whatever parameters you want. My BHP has a 32# hammer spring, so it likes hot ammo. I tend to go straight to the max published standard loads and that's about right. I'm thinking about ordering a 26# spring to see if that lightens the trigger, then I'll have to reduce my loads a little so I don't beat the slide to death. I think Pat's Reloading had some Israeli 9mm SMG ammo that was loaded really hot. You might check and see if they still have some. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

January 31, 2009, 10:56 AM	#10
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	This has been a safe load in my pistols. I need to take it out and chronograph it, but the old hand and ear chrono say its pretty zippy. 124 grain Gold Dot over 6.7 grains of Power Pistol, virgin Starline brass and Winchester Small pistol primers. I don't know if it is P+ or not, but as a comparison I use the 135 grain Gold Dot SB and 5.8 grains of Power Pistol as a max +P load in .38 Special. edit: One drawback, I fired that 6.7 grain 9 mm load just after dusk and it has alot of flash __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

January 30, 2009, 02:30 PM	#3
45Marlin carbine Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2007 Location: South-Western North Carolina Posts: 1,124	'MG"? is what type? I load +P jacketed 124gr useing Power Pistol. usually Golden Sabres

January 30, 2009, 03:01 PM	#4
dlb435 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 654	I have looked in vain for +p or +p+ load formulas and found nothing. Nobody wants the liability involved with really hot loads. I can tell you that you are looking for a chrony reading of about 1200~1290 fps for +p+. Your choice of 115 or 124 grain bullet. You need a minimum of a 4" barrel and really good pistol. Don't try these loads in anything but a top quality modern gun. These loads will shorten you guns life a lot. The limiting factor is the CPU (copper pressure units) 42,000 is the absolute max before your gun fails. You can examine your spent brass to see if your pushing the limit. Your reloading manual should have pictures of over pressure load damage to the case. Slower burning powders can help but only if your barrel is long enough. I had worked up a load for a 9mm Uzi that clocked 1500fps, but I used a slower powder and had a 16" barrel. I had no problems with over pressure. Good luck!

January 30, 2009, 03:39 PM	#5
Jimbo-Indy Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2008 Location: Owasso, OK Posts: 334	I load 124 gr. Rainier plated flatpoints over Power Pistol for my 9mm bowling pin load. Can't remember the exact powder grains but it is in the Lee manual. Getting high 1100s out of a High Power. Also works great in a S&W 639. Fairly hot load. The fire is neat in the evening.

January 31, 2009, 10:43 AM	#8
mnw42 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2008 Location: Bucks Co., PA Posts: 210	You always upgrade to .38 Super

January 31, 2009, 12:04 PM	#11
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	Purely personal opinion: Anyone who recognises the need for a 9mm+P load for "defense" should also understand the desirablity of going to a .45 ACP.

January 31, 2009, 09:07 PM	#14
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"You think you are a great shot and won't need all those rounds....?" Not at all, you seem to have missed my point. I just don't think missing 15 times and maybe hitting once with a .38+P Special with a light bullet is as effective as hitting once with a small boulder. Missing won't save anyone. Personal marksmanship at any level can improve. The maximum effeciveness of the weapon/ammo won't. The FBI deternined in a fire fight in Miami several years back that the 9mm was a poor choice for combat in the streets, that's what led them half-way back to the ideal balance for a pistol cartridge with the .40 S&W. It's worth mentioning that, after a LOT of critical expericence over the last several years, many of our GIs in the sandbox have come to agree with me! Good luck...

January 31, 2009, 10:05 PM	#15
goodspeed(TPF) Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 1,162	Way to hijack a thread guys. I think the OP is genuinely looking for some valid information on the subject. Let's try to stay on topic. Thank you. -Goodspeed __________________ It's a trick. Get an axe. http://www.thepiratefleet.com/index.shtml

February 1, 2009, 02:10 AM	#16
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	The FBI determined that the 9mm was not good for street combat???? OK then why do hundreds of PDs across the country still employ the 9mm?? You are right...personal marksmanship can improve....BUT how will you know if you can perform under rigorous conditions (ie self defense)? I am just saying that I would rather have 18 or 20 shots at hitting a target. Couple this with +p rounds and you will have higher velocities and more muzzle energy = more stopping power. We will probably never agree on this subject....so we should end it here. We can agree to disagree...how about that???!!! Sorry for hijacking the thread! __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

February 2, 2009, 04:16 PM	#17
dlb435 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 654	Proof rounds are a one time deal at the factory (and only in Europe). As noted above, your brass can look just fine even when you have pushed the limit. +P+ loads can be very tricky. For hangun use, I just buy them. Why take the risk? Most published 9mm loads don't exceed 33,800 CUP. As for 9mm carbines, slow burning powders and long barrels can easily get a bullet moving. If you really want to try your own +P+ loads you may want to build a shooting fixture and pull the triger from 10 feet away. Just one little legal note: If you use your own homemade ammo to stop a criminal he, or his family, may sue you for making "killer ammo". If you use ready made defense rounds, you don't have that risk. Also, +P+ ammo is not as good as shot placement. Why not make more practice rounds at a safe load and get in more shooting time?

February 2, 2009, 04:33 PM	#18
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	+1 on the leagl note!!! It is sad, but true!:barf: __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

February 2, 2009, 04:58 PM	#19
Regular Joe Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Posts: 255	I think it unwise to struggle for the last few FPS, especially when you're using a powder that can spike in pressure with a very small increase in charge weight. I find that Blue Dot is "the right" powder for my hot 124 gr. 9mm loads, because pressure builds very evenly as charge weight increases, and it remains low in relation to others, even at max. Alliant says I'm getting 1,238 fps with 7.9 gr. The case is FULL at that point. That's over 400 ft./lbs. energy, with a 4" barrel. There just isn't any need for more than that, if you know which way to point the gun. IMO, this is the correct load for 9mm, period. For 115 gr. bullets, I find that HS-6 is my choice. Hodgdon says that 7.0 gr. drives a 115 gr. JHP @ 1,234 fps., while pressure is just 29,400 CUP. I really like the Nosler 115 gr. JHP with that load. When you pay attention to burn rate and pressure, the "+P+" is a bit of a misnomer. You don't have to exceed design pressure to optimize performance, nor should you, EVER. Believing that the installation of a heavier recoil spring is a viable approach to gaining anything is totally fallacious. While the slide won't bang as hard on recoil, it slams closed with greater force, and this is battering defined. 9mm is my handgun caliber of choice. If you want more power, move to a cartridge that was designed from inception to be more powerful. As for the caliber debate, all I have to say to anyone who doubts the capability of properly loaded 9mm is "want some?"

February 2, 2009, 07:09 PM	#21
dlb435 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 654	"For 115 gr. bullets, I find that HS-6 is my choice. Hodgdon says that 7.0 gr. drives a 115 gr. JHP @ 1,234 fps., while pressure is just 29,400 CUP. I really like the Nosler 115 gr. JHP with that load."- Regular Joe Hey, thanks for that load data! Sounds like a great performer. What is you LOL?

February 3, 2009, 12:58 PM	#22
tac_driver Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 61	9MM+P the link above will take you to the round i'm talking about. It says the muzzle velocity is running at 1220 fps. These are my defense rounds. Shooting them from a glock 19. Want to load some of my own for practice and recoil management. Will not be shooting these in self-defense that is what the factory rounds are for. I have 3 powders i work with Bullseye, Unique and W231. 4# each. Duplicated the 38 spcl +P 135gr gold dot round using Unique. Looking to do the same for 9mm. __________________ http://home.roadrunner.com/~cuttingedgz/ 22/45 Ruger S&W 640 Glock 21SF,S&W 67 Combat,Colt series 80 Combat,Glock 19

February 3, 2009, 05:26 PM	#23
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	If one uses a recoil spring of proper weight, per, for example, Wolff Springs' guidelines, then one need not worry about rearward or forward battering.

February 3, 2009, 06:07 PM	#24
1911 Shooter Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Posts: 124	Foer self defense, My full Uzi likes those hot loads