Resizing a complete cartridge - Page 2

F. Guffey · October 13, 2017, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Here’s the thing. It *should* be perfectly safe. The only reason that round should go off is if something hits the primer, and pretty damn hard. Squishing the case in a die will have no effect on the primer whatsoever.

One more time, we are not talking about a RCBS 30/06 die sizing a loaded 30/06 round, as T. O'Heir said there is no room for the bullet, there is no room for the neck after a bullet has been seated. There are other dies with larger openings in the top of the die like Herter dies, It is possible to use 338/06 die, with the big opening and no forcing cone factors that aid in building pressire will not exist.

One more time, I have a custom 1911 build that likes new, over the counter factory ammo, it doe not like my reloads. So (there is always a so moment), after that comes; and then. I compared new factory over the counter with my reloads and found a difference, the difference was the bullet line, new factory over the counter ammo did not have bullets lins so I sized my 45 ACP ammo with a RCBS carbide die down to the bullet line. After removing the bullet line my pistol never hesitated with my reloads.

A very disciplined reloaders suggested I did not know how to load for the 45 ACP (SO?) I made arrangements to shoot his 45 ACP reloaded ammo, his ammo worked like my ammo with bullet lines, he offered ammo to every shooter at the range, good stuff, his ammo flew through there pistols like new ammo. I do not live that far from the range so I left, sized his ammo and then return. I fired his sized ammo in my pistol as though it was factory ammo.

I know, there is a fix but I like the accuracy of the pistol with ammo that fits, so I have applied the leaver policy, meaning I am going to leaver the way I it is.

Anyhow my reloades looked like a snake that had swallowed something.

F. Guffey

603Country · October 13, 2017, 08:01 PM

Just to say it, for those of you that don't have or have not seen a Redding Body Die or a Redding Type S FL sizing Die (with the guts removed), there's nothing to touch the bullet or neck of a loaded round. And there's nothing to touch the primer. Either die will size the body of the case and bump the shoulder back if set up to do so. What you can't do is take the guts out of a standard FL sizing Die and size a loaded round. That won't work,

The first round I resized did make me a touch nervous, so I went real slow and examined the process and what what was touching what. Once I confirmed that nothing was going to press on the primer, I went ahead and sized it (with lube...don't forget the lube).

So, if you have 10 loaded rounds, you can pull the bullets or use the Body Die. But if you have 300 rounds, you might consider the Body Die.

JeepHammer · October 13, 2017, 08:33 PM

OK, one more time...

When you reload for more than one rifle, you MUST return the case to as close to SAAMI specification as possible.

To do this, you MUST own a case gauge (about $20).
LE Wilson gauges are my favorite because they have 'Quick Reference's grooves cut into both ends.
These are 'Go/NoGo' tolerance limits, if your cases are between the high/low tolerance standards the rounds will run in common chambers.

You use the gauge to tell if you are beating the brass back within tolerance,
AND, You use the gauge to tell if loaded rounds are going to fit into the chamber.

Your case can come out of the resizing die just fine, but seating the bullet or crimping can bend the shoulder, roll the mouth lip, etc.
The case gauge will catch these issues (flared shoulders, folded or bent mouth lips) in a flash simply because it won't fit into the gauge properly.

In machinists terms, this is a 'Last Word' gauge, final quality control check.

603Country · October 13, 2017, 08:41 PM

Well, maybe I was answering a question that wasn't asked. My point was that you can resize the body of a loaded round. But, if the question is how to size for multiple rifles of the same caliber, I'd just resize them to factory spec. You may or may not need a small base die to do that.

As for a Wilson Case Gauge, I only have one 223 and I load to fit the chamber. I have a Wilson Case Gauge, but consider it of no use for my purposes. I think I mentioned recently, on this forum, that my 223 had a tight match chamber when I had it rebarreled. Reloaded ammo fit the Case Gauge fine, but would not chamber if I used Lapua brass. Drove me crazy for a while. Turned out that the Case neck walls were too thick (for my rifle chamber) and with a seated bullet, the rounds wouldn't fit. I lost all confidence that my Case Gauge would give me useful information.

Forget the Case Gauge and size with a standard Fl Die. If that doesn't work, get a small base Die.

higgite · October 13, 2017, 11:24 PM

Deleted. Nevermind.

Metal god · October 14, 2017, 02:10 AM

Quote:

When you reload for more than one rifle, you MUST return the case to as close to SAAMI specification as possible.

JH , I have to disagree and this in not to sound snarky . I load for multiple rifles of the same caliber in both 308 and 223/5.56 and I don't even consider loading to SAAMI specs . I use the Hornady headspace gauge/comparator and size my cases to bump the shoulder back .002 to .003 to fit the smallest chamber which results in the cartridges fitting in all the rifles .

SAAMI specs don't mean much to me in this regard . This is not to say my cases aren't at or close to SAAMI minimum . Heck in theory they could be smaller . I couldn't even tell you what SAAMI specs are for the 308 or 223 off the top of my head . I just know I size some cases to fit multiple rifles of the same caliber and any SAAMI measurements are not even considered , only what the actual chamber sizes are is what matters to me . I've not yet ran into a situation where there was a large enough difference in chamber sizes to where I thought one firearm would have to much head clearance . Although my new RPR is by far the tightest chamber I have to date and is right on the edge of being to small compared to my Ruger American rifle . I'm talking almost .004 difference when measuring there respective fire formed cases .

That said I do size my long term storage SHTF ammo to the length of a GO gauge . This is because I don't know what firearm I may have in the future and want any stored ammo to chamber in any firearm it needs to feed .

HiBC · October 14, 2017, 08:54 AM

Quote:

You use the gauge to tell if you are beating the brass back within tolerance,
AND, You use the gauge to tell if loaded rounds are going to fit into the chamber.

Your case can come out of the resizing die just fine, but seating the bullet or crimping can bend the shoulder, roll the mouth lip, etc.
The case gauge will catch these issues (flared shoulders, folded or bent mouth lips) in a flash simply because it won't fit into the gauge properly.

In machinists terms, this is a 'Last Word' gauge, final quality control check.

Wrong. Not so. The Wilson Bushing gauge IS NOT for checking loaded ammo as in a "plunk test" It does not represent a minimum SAAMI chamber..
(Fancy terms,a "plunk gauge " must insure a clearance fit representation of a chamber at "Maximum Material Condition" and of ammo at "Maximum Material Condition" The bushing gauge,used to measure shoulder setback,must first accept fired,unsized cases...the diameters of the gauge must be at least SAAMI Least Material Condition for a chamber.)

It is incredible to me how many folks completely do not understand the purpose of a bushing gauge.
Each and every one who believes a Wilson Bushing Case length gauge or similar bushing gauge can be used as a substitute chamber for "plunk" testing does not understand the gauge.
Its NOT for measuring diameters. Period. All of the diameters are oversize,for clearance,by design. The very largest SAAMI diameters MUST be a free,fall in clearance fit in a bushing die.
Any diametrical interference between the brass and the bushing die would make the bushing die useless for its intended purpose,measuring LENGTH.

What the bushing die is for: It provides a simulated datum circle representing the location on the shoulder that the SAAMI shoulder to case head measurement is taken from.
On the open end of the gauge is a step. Between the full length of the bushing and the step is theSAAMI tolerance for the cartridge case head to shoulder length.
Those two steps correspond to the cartridge case version of the "Go" and "No Go" headspace gauges for the chamber. They are all about measuring from the bolt face/cartridge head to the shoulder datum.

As a bonus,they throw in the function of a case overall length gauge to see if your brass needs trimming.

That's it. It does not have a darn thing to do with neck diameters or small base dies,or any other diameter measurement.It has nothing to do with testing ammo for "good to go"

It is for checking shoulder setback. You may use it for SAAMI high-low limit. You may also use it as a convenient simulated datum with measuring tools to come up with repeatable die settings.
You may use it with calipers to a similar purpose as the Hornady cartridge length gauge or RCBS Precision mic by measuring over the bushing to the case head of the brass.

End of that topic.New topic:
While it is not the ONLY reason .223-5.56 loaded ammo gets stuck in the chamber,the most common reason is related to the crimp function of the seater die putting too much end load on the cartridge. The shoulder collapses and bulges.
In the extreme,this comes from screwing the seater down on the shellholder.
It can be intermittent due to brass of varying lengths.
Overcrimp or try to crimp where there is no cannelure and shoulder collapse becomes a problem.
Measure for a bulge at the shoulder vs just behind the shoulder before you wonder about small base dies.
Measure your brass where you think you need a smallbase die,like,at the base...then compare it to a factory load.If you don't mic a problem...where is the problem? Only a little expansion and the primers get loose.
If you have very old dies or if you size gritty,abrasive brass,your dies may be worn out. Then you may need new standard dies .
They make small base dies for a reason...I think it is mostly Remington pump and semi-auto 740/760 series rifles.

mehavey · October 14, 2017, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiBC

While it is not the ONLY reason .223-5.56 loaded ammo gets stuck in the chamber,
the most common reason is related to the crimp function of the seater die putting
too much end load on the cartridge. The shoulder collapses and bulges.

+1
See Post #9, the question which (IIRC) has never been answered

JeepHammer · October 14, 2017, 04:33 PM

MG, this is a novice that wanted to stick LOADED ROUNDS into a die to reshape the case!
A reasonably tight tolerance case gauge IS going to be a simple, effective quality control check that will get his rounds running in 90% of same chambered rifles.

A case gauge used as a last word gauge finds flared shoulders by simply dropping them in, with flared shoulders being a large cause of beginners making rounds that don't fit.
It's usually because they don't understand how the roll/taper crimp works in the cheap seating/crimping dies.

It's a nearly screw up proof way for beginners to learn basics, diagnose problems with their setups, and QC loaded ammo...
Plus, when combined with a caliper or micrometer, it gives you a reading to ZERO from to produce repeatable results, saving time setting up dies, which all newbies do WAY too often, along with a zero point reading so you can gauge your changes.

Everyone pulls the 'Ultra Tight' or 'Match Chamber' (OFF SPECIFICATION!) out of their butts when the subject comes up, the simple fact is...
Tons of YouTube videos on simple, and complex use of a case gauge, so learning is easy, the gauge is cheap ($20), and helps produce SAFE rounds.

They ALWAYS leave out (or probably don't know) an off spec chamber SHOULD have a custom cut sizing die & case gauge made identical to the off spec chamber,
OR, they have ZERO idea what the baseline should be for that off spec chamber...
Which leads to the current crop of 'Small Base' dies, all kinds of silly comparators, tons of general purpose chamber tools, etc. Trying to beat case into some semblance of fitting that off spec chamber...

When I hear some armchair expert spout off about 'Match' chambers, and I'm in the mood to point out the obvious, I ask what specification they changed... They always say 'Its Tigter', tighter where? How much? What measurement reading?
That's where they get mad because they have NO IDEA!
Someone talked them into some magical barrel or rechamber, and they have ZERO idea if the work was even done, or what changes were made, don't have a die that exactly matches the chamber, ect...

I have drawers full of ogive adapters, Datum point adapters, case profile gauges, ways to check/measure every aspect of chamber & cartridge. The simple truth is none are as easy as the commercial case gauge, simple is good when starting out!
I have to find what someone else screwed up, or time & wear has done to chambers... That's the reason for all the equipment to find out exactly what I'm working with to diagnose any issues. Any other reason is just fluff & bragging rights!

I'll point someone towards safe & simple every time over complicated and questionable... No room for error means screw up proof, and that is a big step towards safe ammo...
Safe first, then CONSISTENT so you have a chance at better accuracy.

And no offense taken! I get your point, but we are talking skill level here... He's like 90% of 'Reloaders', he bought basic equipment, had minimal (if any) education, banged out a working round in ONE firearm...
Now he's overshot his skill level, ignored all safety procedures, and was looking for someone to validate his 'Short Cut'...
I won't do that...

"You'll shoot your eye out kid" comes to mind, only this isn't a spring powered BB gun...

603Country · October 14, 2017, 06:38 PM

Jeephammer, as you said, the OP is a novice. He has 1000's of rounds of loaded 223 that need to be slightly resized. He doesn't need a Case Gauge, if only for the reason that you said few folks know how to use them. For the loaded rounds, he needs that Redding Body Die to touch up the loaded cases, or maybe a small base Body Die if they make one. It's fast, simple, and to my mind it isn't dangerous. For new loads, I think he got a small based Die and it works. All is good.

As for folks whining about their tight match chambers, some of us actually have/had those. The gunsmith I used for the 223 apologized for the tight chamber he put in mine - which I didn't ask for. He opened the neck up a bit and all is well. I won't use him again, since he paid little attention to what I needed him to do.

HiBC · October 14, 2017, 10:29 PM

Jeephammer,You said a lot of correct things in your post,but...

I'm not talking about match chambers.I'm not talking about special tools .

I'm telling you a bushing gauge is not,never has been a tool to QC loaded ammo. Its the wrong dimensions. It will not assure that ammo is SAAMI spec and it will not assure the ammo will fit in a standard SAAMI chamber.

The fact that you can use it to sort out grossly out of spec ammo is irrelevant.

I understand the OP is learning new things and does not have a base of knowledge and experience to sort out wrong,misleading,and confusing information.
That is why I am calling you on it. You are wrong.

A bushing die MUST be oversize on all diameters except the simulated shoulder datum circle in order for a bushing case length gauge to function. It cannot measure the case length based on the shoulder datum if any diameter interferes.
Therefore,it is unsuitable to be the "Last word" gauge for checking ammo.It will pass diametrically oversize ammo.

I will agree any ammo that fails to enter a bushing gauge is reject.It is grossly wrong.

But you are absolutely wrong that entering the bushing gauge qualifies ammo as good. Bad ammo that is not SAAMI spec,bad ammo that will stick in the chamber may still enter a bushing gauge.
You might as well use your seater die body.Its a hole that really bad ammo won't fit in. But its not a "last word" gauge.

The worst part of misinformation like yours is that people who buy a bushing gauge come to believe its a worthless crap plunk gauge they cant trust. They throw it in a drawer and tell other people bushing gauges are a waste of time.

They never learn just how useful the bushing gauge is because some wrong person told them its a plunk gauge.

Then they leave the bushing in the drawer and go buy a Hornady clamp on attachment for their calipers to measure shoulder bump. Why? A calipers and bushing die does the same thing better.
You can tailor a specific head clearance of .002 or .004 with a bushing gauge and a caliper. You can set up SAAMI spec ammo by just using the hi-lo step.
If the neck sticks out the end,trim it.

But it not a chamber plunk gauge.

I won't argue with the Redfield bushing siizing die,if the OP is going to rework them.
I'm not saying anything good or bad about re-work sizing them. It has to do with risk assessment and personal choices.I cannot call it "recommended practice". A loaded round in a reloading die is no different than a loaded round in a firearm chamber. You might very well be able to cycle 1000 rounds through a rifle in your living room without incident.If something odd manages to go wrong somehow,someone may get killed. I'm not recommending anything.
A Redding bushing die is $
Once in a while I find a Gold Nugget in one of Mr Guffey's posts. He pointed out that a sizing die for a necked up .223 cartridge family would provide clearance around the neck. That's true.
I believe the TCU series cartridges are necked up.223,correct? So a 6mm or 7mm TCU should work? (verify no shoulder mods) How much is a Lee sizer die? only?

Metal god · October 14, 2017, 11:59 PM

Hope this clears things up for anyone still not understanding what these gauges are for and how to use them to there fullest potential .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuJYpm-qplQ

FWIW I do have the Redding body dies as well as Redding type s Bushing dies and did test if you can bump a shoulder back a couple thou on a loaded cartridge . I was able to do it with both the body only die and the Bushing die with "ALL" internals removed . I did that test a few years ago when a similar thread was going .

Do I recommend it , no I felt a little uneasy when doing it but in theory with some caution it should be safe .

nanuk-O-dah-Nort · October 16, 2017, 07:10 AM

if the base was too large in diameter, could you just take a Lee sizer die for cast in a 375HH and slide the ammo through? it would only touch/squeeze the base, and the tool ram is large enough that if the primers are properly seated, there is no risk. One could dremel out at hollow in the middle of it to protect the primer.

also, could someone post a link to the different dies folks are referring to?
I kinda get the feeling some are using two different terms to describe the same thing.
This would really help me understand some comments.

HiBC · October 16, 2017, 11:21 AM

See the link in MG's post above. It clearly describes the bushing gauge used for measuring ,for lack of a better term,"case headspace" Good video!
Note it is called a "bushing GAUGE"

Redding,and perhaps others,makes a Bushing case resizing DIE (as opposed to GAUGE) that allows the handloader to change bushings that resize the neck portion of the case.This gives the handloader control of neck tension and sizing after neck turning for example,,relying less on the expander plug or eliminating it,etc.or minimizing the working of the brass.

Generally a die alters or forms the part in question,and a gauge measures it.

With no bushing in the die,it may be that the die could size the case body without touching the neck.

I'm guessing its hard to follow the difference between a bushing type resizing die and a bushing type measuring gauge. Completely different tool doing a completely different job.

And a "plunk gauge" is another tool in its own right.
The way a standard set of tolerances,like SAAMI works,the largest SAAMI ammo will fit the tightest SAAMI chamber. A handloader who is custom making ammo for one chamber does not care. The ammo is tailored to the gun.

But if the loads are for multiple guns,or commercial reloads,the biggest,longest,fattest cartridge you make has to fit the tightest in-spec SAAMI chamber stamped on the barrel.
The "plunk gauge" simulates that tight chamber.

As far as your suggested remedy to the problem....there is more than one way to skin a cat.

mkl · October 16, 2017, 02:16 PM

The original post asked:

Quote:

Before anyone throws rocks at me, let me explain. I reloaded a bunch (1000's) ..223 for a non-colt AR. Having acquired a couple new Colt AR's i am having a few issues with them getting stuck in the chamber. Did my research and discovered the need for a small base die. Works great and no more issues.

If he has determined that a small base die will fix the issue, let us take him at his word. I'll probably catch flack for this suggestion, but why not try something like this:

Go to Ebay and pick up a small base die such as: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-RCBS-Sma...4AAOSw2tRZdBZO.

Screw the die into the press until contact with raised ram with shell holder and mark the top of the die where it is flush with the top of the press screw in hole plus 1/4 turn.

Remove die and cut off everything above the mark. Cutting the top of the die off may prove difficult -- I've never tried it but I do have the tools to do it. A diamond tile cut wheel or an angle grinder cut off wheel comes to mind.

Once the top of the small base die was cut off so the top of the die was flush with the top of the press should allow the base only to be resized. With lube of course.

In the very unlikely case that the loaded cartridge did go off, there would be no "barrel" above the bullet as most of the cartridge would be above the top of the cut off die where confined pressure (as in a die/barrel) could not develop. I'd still wear safety glasses while I did this!

Just an idea, but if the OP has several thousand cartridges that need the base reduced, it may be worth a try.

JeepHammer · October 16, 2017, 02:26 PM

And again missing the point. The OP has a bunch of loaded rounds, and is inexperienced or the rounds would fit a standard chamber.
A simple gauge would let him determine what rounds (if any) will work, without stuffing loaded rounds into some Gizmo to try and size them after the fact.

While everyone seems to want to come up the most complicated ways to do things not considering the experience level involved.

mkl · October 16, 2017, 02:51 PM

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Today 02:26 PM

Quote:

JeepHammer:And again missing the point. The OP has a bunch of loaded rounds, and is inexperienced or the rounds would fit a standard chamber.
A simple gauge would let him determine what rounds (if any) will work, without stuffing loaded rounds into some Gizmo to try and size them after the fact.

And then you suggest he dispose of the several thousand rounds? He did not ask what would work, he asked how he could fix the ones he had to fuction in his new Colt rifles.

Metal god · October 16, 2017, 03:26 PM

Or instead of doing all that work he can spend $10 more and just buy the correct body die .
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...-base-body-die

How ever I would not buy a body die because the Redding type s bushing die is the same thing with no bushing or decapping rod installed . Then later on you have a bushing die if you ever want to buy bushings for it .

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...die-small-base

They seem to have gotten a bit pricy . I want to say mine were under $80

hdwhit · October 16, 2017, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Brian Pfleuger wrote:
However, and it’s a big however, you have to realize that if that round DOES go BOOM! while it’s up in that die, what you essentially have is a very short barreled rifle...

I've got some experience that may be relevant here.

In my earliest days of reloading (40 years ago, I know better now), a friend and I tried to do exactly what fpchief is asking about in the OP. We were using the old style Lee Loader and, of course, got the cartridge stuck in the die. One of us had the "brilliant" idea to saw off the case head and remove what would then be nothing but a brass tube with a screw extractor. So, we chucked the die into a bench vise and went to work. Just as my friend started to get into the metal of the case head with the hacksaw, the primer went off.

This did indeed turn the die into a short barreled rifle - but one with an ill-fitting barrel.

The bullet traveled down the three-quarters inch or so of the die's mouth, flew across the bench for six, maybe nine inches and came to rest in an ashtray.

That was it.

The primer ignited.

The powder burned.

The bullet flew a few inches.

The case did not rupture - if it didn't have the beginnings of the hacksaw groove in it, it would have even been reusable.

The die did not explode - it wasn't even damaged.

Since the die body was designed to size the case neck, there was space around the bullet roughly the thickness of the case at the mouth and this allowed almost all the pressure to immediately escape, so the bullet had little more than the impulse of the primer to drive it forward.

mkl · October 16, 2017, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Or instead of doing all that work he can spend $10 more and just buy the correct body die .
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...-base-body-die

Agree, but I was trying to suggest a method to reduce the base and not touch the shoulder which seems to fit okay in all of the OP's rifles. Note that the die you suggest does "bump" the shoulder back a little.

Metal god · October 16, 2017, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Agree, but I was trying to suggest a method to reduce the base and not touch the shoulder which seems to fit okay in all of the OP's rifles. Note that the die you suggest does "bump" the shoulder back a little.

I understand but would be concerned that sizing down the body may push the shoulder forward some depending on how much the body is squeezed down . I would compare head to datum point measurements before and after any of these methods are tried to be sure the "case headspace"

had not changed .

HiBC · October 16, 2017, 04:14 PM

Jeephammer:

I'm going to type slow

1) The OP said the ammo as is works in his original AR
2) He says it gets stuck in the Colt AR's
Don't over think here,just answer this one little question. Is the ammo a lot oversize,or just a little bit oversize? Seems like just chamber tolerance oversize,yes? Agreed?

Now. It is possible the OP is mistaken. It is possible the difference is headspace and shoulder bump,not diameters.
In that case,I absolutely agree,you can sort out ammo with non-SAAMI head to shoulder length with the bushing gauge...Agreed? If it is a LENGTH issue,the bushing gauge is good.And,I recommend the OP verify the lengths with the gauge.Between the steps! Check!

However,the OP said its a DIAMETER issue. For now,may we take his word for it? Ok

Is the L.E Wilson gauge designed and cut to accept FIRED,EXPANDED,UNSIZED brass from any SAAMI chamber ,with drop in clearance on the diameters? The answer is "Yes" . Go watch the above recommended video by Wilson.

Now,what are the odds ,if this is a diameter problem,and if the ammo shoots in the original AR, that trying to use a Wilson bushing gauge for a plunk test to check diameters will do anything but waste the OP's time ? Its BAD INFORMATION.

Its BAD INFORMATION no matter how easy it is or how inexperienced the OP is. Its not simple or foolproof if IT WILL NOT WORK.
And if you are using an L.E.Wilson case length gauge as a "last word " qualifying gauge to decide if your reman ammo is "good to go" out the door,you are selling a lot of BAD AMMO.

Now,I do agree that resizing the loaded rounds is not recommended.I'm not saying there is no way it can be done.
I maintain that each time the loaded round enters the die,it is similar to chambering a loaded round in a firearm. To do so is an assumption of potentially deadly risk.
From that point,individuals make informed choices.
IMO,the body die ,unless there is a shoulder bump,is like squeezing a banana. Things get longer in an uncontrolled manner.
Bullet concentricity will likely be poor.
Pulling the bullets or shooting the ammo in the original rifle would be the wise,prudent thing to do.

But none of that changes the function of a bushing gauge.

F. Guffey · October 17, 2017, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Agree, but I was trying to suggest a method to reduce the base and not touch the shoulder which seems to fit okay in all of the OP's rifles. Note that the die you suggest does "bump" the shoulder back a little.

RCBS instructions for the bump press qualify the design for the press. RCBS says the only press that is a bump press is the cam over press meaning the cam over press is a bump press and the other press that does not cam over is not a bump press. And then there is the other problem, it is impossible to bump the shoulder on a case back. I understand, it sounds cool on the Internet but it is impossible to move the shoulder back and or bump the shoulder back with a die that has full body/shoulder support.

Lyman had it correct many years ago, they claimed the case gets longer from the shoulder/datum to the case head when sized; even if the reloaders describes the sizing die as a squeeze-um die.

When it comes to moving the shoulder back? That leaves me, I am the only one that can move the shoulder back, for me? Not a problem but I can not move the shoulder back with a die that has case body/shoulder support. Same thing with 'bump', I can not move the shoulder back with a cam over press even thought it is a bump press. The one thing I can do with a cam over press is size the case twice with one trip of the handle.

And then there was the effort to glorify the case with head space; because? The lack of being able to call it anything else. The case does not have head space, we went through that when ever tool was a head space gage and everything had head space. Example, Larry sold a tool he called a digital head space gage. Reloaders had no clue what a head space gage looked like so they purchased his height stand, the height stand was set up to make comparisons so basically Larry made a comparator, I thought it was an expensive tool and I thought any reloader with a few shop skills could have made one if they could drill a straight hole, after the hole there were improvements that could have been made to the hole. There was only one Canadian that started by drilling a hole, he contacted me and said he drilled the hole and said it worked but he saw room for improvement but did not know how to improve the design.

I gave him the fail proof improvements and never heard from him again.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · October 17, 2017, 02:09 PM

Quote:

However,the OP said its a DIAMETER issue. For now,may we take his word for it? Ok

Is the L.E Wilson gauge designed and cut to accept FIRED,EXPANDED,UNSIZED brass from any SAAMI chamber ,with drop in clearance on the diameters? The answer is "Yes" . Go watch the above recommended video by Wilson.

And I said it was possible to use the Wilson case gage to determine the diameter of the case, that was when I believed there were reloaders with a few shop skills.

Long before that I said I made datums, I collect datums and on rare occasions I purchase datums. when I need something I push myself away from the keyboard and make what I need, there have always been blank spaces in the array of tools available to reloaders. One day I was making a mold for lead bullets when I had an epiphany. I gave up on the mold and started filling in blanks/gaps for the array of tools.

F. Guffey

603Country · October 17, 2017, 03:57 PM

It may be that a few folks are confusing a “bushing Gauge” with a Bushing Die and/or a Body Die. Metal God made a good point about a Redding Bushing Die, if you remove the Bushing itself, being effectively a Body Die. That Redding Type S Bushing Die is rather expensive, but the Redding Body Die is quite affordable - though I forget the price. The Body Die will allow you to size the body of the case and the shoulder, but won’t touch the neck. The Body Die has come in very handy several times. Once, as I mentioned, when the new barrel had a bit more snug chamber, and I used the Die to lightly adjust the shoulder of previously loaded rounds that had fit the chamber of the previous barrel. And a year or so ago I had loaded up some 223 with a Lee Collet Die and had managed to roll the shoulder ever so slightly. Couldn’t look at it and tell, but they would not chamber. I used that Body Die to readjust the shoulder (of the loaded rounds). The Body Die is good to have in your pile of reloading gear. But, if you don’t feel comfortable using it on loaded rounds, then by all means don’t do it.

October 13, 2017, 08:41 PM	#29
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Well, maybe I was answering a question that wasn't asked. My point was that you can resize the body of a loaded round. But, if the question is how to size for multiple rifles of the same caliber, I'd just resize them to factory spec. You may or may not need a small base die to do that. As for a Wilson Case Gauge, I only have one 223 and I load to fit the chamber. I have a Wilson Case Gauge, but consider it of no use for my purposes. I think I mentioned recently, on this forum, that my 223 had a tight match chamber when I had it rebarreled. Reloaded ammo fit the Case Gauge fine, but would not chamber if I used Lapua brass. Drove me crazy for a while. Turned out that the Case neck walls were too thick (for my rifle chamber) and with a seated bullet, the rounds wouldn't fit. I lost all confidence that my Case Gauge would give me useful information. Forget the Case Gauge and size with a standard Fl Die. If that doesn't work, get a small base Die. Last edited by 603Country; October 13, 2017 at 08:52 PM.

October 14, 2017, 04:33 PM	#34
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	MG, this is a novice that wanted to stick LOADED ROUNDS into a die to reshape the case! A reasonably tight tolerance case gauge IS going to be a simple, effective quality control check that will get his rounds running in 90% of same chambered rifles. A case gauge used as a last word gauge finds flared shoulders by simply dropping them in, with flared shoulders being a large cause of beginners making rounds that don't fit. It's usually because they don't understand how the roll/taper crimp works in the cheap seating/crimping dies. It's a nearly screw up proof way for beginners to learn basics, diagnose problems with their setups, and QC loaded ammo... Plus, when combined with a caliper or micrometer, it gives you a reading to ZERO from to produce repeatable results, saving time setting up dies, which all newbies do WAY too often, along with a zero point reading so you can gauge your changes. Everyone pulls the 'Ultra Tight' or 'Match Chamber' (OFF SPECIFICATION!) out of their butts when the subject comes up, the simple fact is... Tons of YouTube videos on simple, and complex use of a case gauge, so learning is easy, the gauge is cheap ($20), and helps produce SAFE rounds. They ALWAYS leave out (or probably don't know) an off spec chamber SHOULD have a custom cut sizing die & case gauge made identical to the off spec chamber, OR, they have ZERO idea what the baseline should be for that off spec chamber... Which leads to the current crop of 'Small Base' dies, all kinds of silly comparators, tons of general purpose chamber tools, etc. Trying to beat case into some semblance of fitting that off spec chamber... When I hear some armchair expert spout off about 'Match' chambers, and I'm in the mood to point out the obvious, I ask what specification they changed... They always say 'Its Tigter', tighter where? How much? What measurement reading? That's where they get mad because they have NO IDEA! Someone talked them into some magical barrel or rechamber, and they have ZERO idea if the work was even done, or what changes were made, don't have a die that exactly matches the chamber, ect... I have drawers full of ogive adapters, Datum point adapters, case profile gauges, ways to check/measure every aspect of chamber & cartridge. The simple truth is none are as easy as the commercial case gauge, simple is good when starting out! I have to find what someone else screwed up, or time & wear has done to chambers... That's the reason for all the equipment to find out exactly what I'm working with to diagnose any issues. Any other reason is just fluff & bragging rights! I'll point someone towards safe & simple every time over complicated and questionable... No room for error means screw up proof, and that is a big step towards safe ammo... Safe first, then CONSISTENT so you have a chance at better accuracy. And no offense taken! I get your point, but we are talking skill level here... He's like 90% of 'Reloaders', he bought basic equipment, had minimal (if any) education, banged out a working round in ONE firearm... Now he's overshot his skill level, ignored all safety procedures, and was looking for someone to validate his 'Short Cut'... I won't do that... "You'll shoot your eye out kid" comes to mind, only this isn't a spring powered BB gun... Last edited by JeepHammer; October 14, 2017 at 04:55 PM.

October 14, 2017, 10:29 PM	#36
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Jeephammer,You said a lot of correct things in your post,but... I'm not talking about match chambers.I'm not talking about special tools . I'm telling you a bushing gauge is not,never has been a tool to QC loaded ammo. Its the wrong dimensions. It will not assure that ammo is SAAMI spec and it will not assure the ammo will fit in a standard SAAMI chamber. The fact that you can use it to sort out grossly out of spec ammo is irrelevant. I understand the OP is learning new things and does not have a base of knowledge and experience to sort out wrong,misleading,and confusing information. That is why I am calling you on it. You are wrong. A bushing die MUST be oversize on all diameters except the simulated shoulder datum circle in order for a bushing case length gauge to function. It cannot measure the case length based on the shoulder datum if any diameter interferes. Therefore,it is unsuitable to be the "Last word" gauge for checking ammo.It will pass diametrically oversize ammo. I will agree any ammo that fails to enter a bushing gauge is reject.It is grossly wrong. But you are absolutely wrong that entering the bushing gauge qualifies ammo as good. Bad ammo that is not SAAMI spec,bad ammo that will stick in the chamber may still enter a bushing gauge. You might as well use your seater die body.Its a hole that really bad ammo won't fit in. But its not a "last word" gauge. The worst part of misinformation like yours is that people who buy a bushing gauge come to believe its a worthless crap plunk gauge they cant trust. They throw it in a drawer and tell other people bushing gauges are a waste of time. They never learn just how useful the bushing gauge is because some wrong person told them its a plunk gauge. Then they leave the bushing in the drawer and go buy a Hornady clamp on attachment for their calipers to measure shoulder bump. Why? A calipers and bushing die does the same thing better. You can tailor a specific head clearance of .002 or .004 with a bushing gauge and a caliper. You can set up SAAMI spec ammo by just using the hi-lo step. If the neck sticks out the end,trim it. But it not a chamber plunk gauge. I won't argue with the Redfield bushing siizing die,if the OP is going to rework them. I'm not saying anything good or bad about re-work sizing them. It has to do with risk assessment and personal choices.I cannot call it "recommended practice". A loaded round in a reloading die is no different than a loaded round in a firearm chamber. You might very well be able to cycle 1000 rounds through a rifle in your living room without incident.If something odd manages to go wrong somehow,someone may get killed. I'm not recommending anything. A Redding bushing die is $ Once in a while I find a Gold Nugget in one of Mr Guffey's posts. He pointed out that a sizing die for a necked up .223 cartridge family would provide clearance around the neck. That's true. I believe the TCU series cartridges are necked up.223,correct? So a 6mm or 7mm TCU should work? (verify no shoulder mods) How much is a Lee sizer die? only? Last edited by HiBC; October 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM.

October 14, 2017, 11:59 PM	#37
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	From LE Wilson them selves Hope this clears things up for anyone still not understanding what these gauges are for and how to use them to there fullest potential . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuJYpm-qplQ FWIW I do have the Redding body dies as well as Redding type s Bushing dies and did test if you can bump a shoulder back a couple thou on a loaded cartridge . I was able to do it with both the body only die and the Bushing die with "ALL" internals removed . I did that test a few years ago when a similar thread was going . Do I recommend it , no I felt a little uneasy when doing it but in theory with some caution it should be safe . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; October 15, 2017 at 02:15 AM.

October 16, 2017, 11:21 AM	#39
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	See the link in MG's post above. It clearly describes the bushing gauge used for measuring ,for lack of a better term,"case headspace" Good video! Note it is called a "bushing GAUGE" Redding,and perhaps others,makes a Bushing case resizing DIE (as opposed to GAUGE) that allows the handloader to change bushings that resize the neck portion of the case.This gives the handloader control of neck tension and sizing after neck turning for example,,relying less on the expander plug or eliminating it,etc.or minimizing the working of the brass. Generally a die alters or forms the part in question,and a gauge measures it. With no bushing in the die,it may be that the die could size the case body without touching the neck. I'm guessing its hard to follow the difference between a bushing type resizing die and a bushing type measuring gauge. Completely different tool doing a completely different job. And a "plunk gauge" is another tool in its own right. The way a standard set of tolerances,like SAAMI works,the largest SAAMI ammo will fit the tightest SAAMI chamber. A handloader who is custom making ammo for one chamber does not care. The ammo is tailored to the gun. But if the loads are for multiple guns,or commercial reloads,the biggest,longest,fattest cartridge you make has to fit the tightest in-spec SAAMI chamber stamped on the barrel. The "plunk gauge" simulates that tight chamber. As far as your suggested remedy to the problem....there is more than one way to skin a cat. Last edited by HiBC; October 16, 2017 at 11:26 AM.

October 13, 2017, 08:01 PM	#27
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Just to say it, for those of you that don't have or have not seen a Redding Body Die or a Redding Type S FL sizing Die (with the guts removed), there's nothing to touch the bullet or neck of a loaded round. And there's nothing to touch the primer. Either die will size the body of the case and bump the shoulder back if set up to do so. What you can't do is take the guts out of a standard FL sizing Die and size a loaded round. That won't work, The first round I resized did make me a touch nervous, so I went real slow and examined the process and what what was touching what. Once I confirmed that nothing was going to press on the primer, I went ahead and sized it (with lube...don't forget the lube). So, if you have 10 loaded rounds, you can pull the bullets or use the Body Die. But if you have 300 rounds, you might consider the Body Die.

October 13, 2017, 08:33 PM	#28
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	OK, one more time... When you reload for more than one rifle, you MUST return the case to as close to SAAMI specification as possible. To do this, you MUST own a case gauge (about $20). LE Wilson gauges are my favorite because they have 'Quick Reference's grooves cut into both ends. These are 'Go/NoGo' tolerance limits, if your cases are between the high/low tolerance standards the rounds will run in common chambers. You use the gauge to tell if you are beating the brass back within tolerance, AND, You use the gauge to tell if loaded rounds are going to fit into the chamber. Your case can come out of the resizing die just fine, but seating the bullet or crimping can bend the shoulder, roll the mouth lip, etc. The case gauge will catch these issues (flared shoulders, folded or bent mouth lips) in a flash simply because it won't fit into the gauge properly. In machinists terms, this is a 'Last Word' gauge, final quality control check.

October 13, 2017, 11:24 PM	#30
higgite Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2010 Posts: 1,025	Deleted. Nevermind.

October 14, 2017, 06:38 PM	#35
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Jeephammer, as you said, the OP is a novice. He has 1000's of rounds of loaded 223 that need to be slightly resized. He doesn't need a Case Gauge, if only for the reason that you said few folks know how to use them. For the loaded rounds, he needs that Redding Body Die to touch up the loaded cases, or maybe a small base Body Die if they make one. It's fast, simple, and to my mind it isn't dangerous. For new loads, I think he got a small based Die and it works. All is good. As for folks whining about their tight match chambers, some of us actually have/had those. The gunsmith I used for the 223 apologized for the tight chamber he put in mine - which I didn't ask for. He opened the neck up a bit and all is well. I won't use him again, since he paid little attention to what I needed him to do.

October 16, 2017, 07:10 AM	#38
nanuk-O-dah-Nort Member Join Date: October 21, 2010 Posts: 20	if the base was too large in diameter, could you just take a Lee sizer die for cast in a 375HH and slide the ammo through? it would only touch/squeeze the base, and the tool ram is large enough that if the primers are properly seated, there is no risk. One could dremel out at hollow in the middle of it to protect the primer. also, could someone post a link to the different dies folks are referring to? I kinda get the feeling some are using two different terms to describe the same thing. This would really help me understand some comments.

October 16, 2017, 02:26 PM	#41
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	And again missing the point. The OP has a bunch of loaded rounds, and is inexperienced or the rounds would fit a standard chamber. A simple gauge would let him determine what rounds (if any) will work, without stuffing loaded rounds into some Gizmo to try and size them after the fact. While everyone seems to want to come up the most complicated ways to do things not considering the experience level involved.

October 16, 2017, 03:26 PM	#43
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	Or instead of doing all that work he can spend $10 more and just buy the correct body die . https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...-base-body-die How ever I would not buy a body die because the Redding type s bushing die is the same thing with no bushing or decapping rod installed . Then later on you have a bushing die if you ever want to buy bushings for it . https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...die-small-base They seem to have gotten a bit pricy . I want to say mine were under $80 __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

October 16, 2017, 04:14 PM	#47
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Jeephammer: I'm going to type slow 1) The OP said the ammo as is works in his original AR 2) He says it gets stuck in the Colt AR's Don't over think here,just answer this one little question. Is the ammo a lot oversize,or just a little bit oversize? Seems like just chamber tolerance oversize,yes? Agreed? Now. It is possible the OP is mistaken. It is possible the difference is headspace and shoulder bump,not diameters. In that case,I absolutely agree,you can sort out ammo with non-SAAMI head to shoulder length with the bushing gauge...Agreed? If it is a LENGTH issue,the bushing gauge is good.And,I recommend the OP verify the lengths with the gauge.Between the steps! Check! However,the OP said its a DIAMETER issue. For now,may we take his word for it? Ok Is the L.E Wilson gauge designed and cut to accept FIRED,EXPANDED,UNSIZED brass from any SAAMI chamber ,with drop in clearance on the diameters? The answer is "Yes" . Go watch the above recommended video by Wilson. Now,what are the odds ,if this is a diameter problem,and if the ammo shoots in the original AR, that trying to use a Wilson bushing gauge for a plunk test to check diameters will do anything but waste the OP's time ? Its BAD INFORMATION. Its BAD INFORMATION no matter how easy it is or how inexperienced the OP is. Its not simple or foolproof if IT WILL NOT WORK. And if you are using an L.E.Wilson case length gauge as a "last word " qualifying gauge to decide if your reman ammo is "good to go" out the door,you are selling a lot of BAD AMMO. Now,I do agree that resizing the loaded rounds is not recommended.I'm not saying there is no way it can be done. I maintain that each time the loaded round enters the die,it is similar to chambering a loaded round in a firearm. To do so is an assumption of potentially deadly risk. From that point,individuals make informed choices. IMO,the body die ,unless there is a shoulder bump,is like squeezing a banana. Things get longer in an uncontrolled manner. Bullet concentricity will likely be poor. Pulling the bullets or shooting the ammo in the original rifle would be the wise,prudent thing to do. But none of that changes the function of a bushing gauge. Last edited by HiBC; October 16, 2017 at 04:38 PM.

October 17, 2017, 03:57 PM	#50
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	It may be that a few folks are confusing a “bushing Gauge” with a Bushing Die and/or a Body Die. Metal God made a good point about a Redding Bushing Die, if you remove the Bushing itself, being effectively a Body Die. That Redding Type S Bushing Die is rather expensive, but the Redding Body Die is quite affordable - though I forget the price. The Body Die will allow you to size the body of the case and the shoulder, but won’t touch the neck. The Body Die has come in very handy several times. Once, as I mentioned, when the new barrel had a bit more snug chamber, and I used the Die to lightly adjust the shoulder of previously loaded rounds that had fit the chamber of the previous barrel. And a year or so ago I had loaded up some 223 with a Lee Collet Die and had managed to roll the shoulder ever so slightly. Couldn’t look at it and tell, but they would not chamber. I used that Body Die to readjust the shoulder (of the loaded rounds). The Body Die is good to have in your pile of reloading gear. But, if you don’t feel comfortable using it on loaded rounds, then by all means don’t do it.