New shotgun for the Army. - Page 2

4thPointofContact · January 24, 2009, 03:37 AM

I don't think they are as far apart as some might think. The fact that one is a magazine-fed, semi-automatic and the other is a fixed, revolving cylinder double action, is at best, a mere triviality to the BATFE. I would gently remind everyone that both the StreetSweeper and the USAS-12 were both classified as DD's by our benevolent protectors.

Per 26 U.S.C. § 5845(f)
"...Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;..."

That's all the Gov't cares about, is it over .50 caliber and does the Secretary find it to be generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes. It's a mere formality, a stroke of the proverbial pen for the Secretary (with no apparent oversight) to declare that a shotgun is no longer particularly suitable for sporting purposes should it be equipped with X, Y, and or Z, instead of the way it was originally manufactured/imported with A, B, and or C.

Current reading seems to be that the Secretary will determine if a particular shotgun is Not particularly suitable for sporting purposes. How much of a stretch is it to change the reading so that the any .50 or above shotgun is a DD until, and if, "...the Secretary finds that it is particularly suitable for sporting purposes..."?

If the Secretary withholds the determination that a particular model is domesticated enough for 'sporting purposes', then guess what it winds up as?

Do we really want someone making a determination that a Ducks Unlimited Remington 870 is ""sporting"" but a Police Magnum 870 isn't?

Scattergun Bob · January 24, 2009, 08:37 AM

You make a great point! I was addressing the qualities of the two scatterguns. In my humble opinion the streetsweeper was a rather cheaply produced and less than adequate functioning firearm.

You are very correct in you observations on the "how to'" of 26 U.S.C.. And frankly it scares me to death

.

Quote:

recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;..."

This could eliminate most all of the scatterguns I own

! So again, you are correct Sir in that light both guns suffer a "sameness" that I had not considered .

Good Luck & Be Safe

PaddyWhacked · January 24, 2009, 09:17 AM

Is there a list anywhere of firearms that have been classified as DD's?
And which states ban the transfer of DD's to civilians?

4thPointofContact · January 24, 2009, 05:04 PM

Scattergun Bob...
Indeed you are correct. Miles and miles apart in terms of build quality. Sorry, I was thinking of them both only in relation to being DD's.

PaddyWhacked...

Quote:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wba...etsweeper.html

8/10/1999 - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
IMPORTANT NOTICE

ATF Rulings 94-1 and 94-2 classified three shotguns as destructive devices pursuant to 26 U.S.C., Chapter 53, the National Firearms Act (NFA). These shotguns are the USAS-12, Striker-12, and the Streetsweeper. The NFA requires registration of certain types of firearms such as machineguns, sawed-off rifles, sawed-off shotguns and destructive devices. The NFA defines destructive devices to include shotguns with a bore of more than one-half inch diameter which are not generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms (ATF) has determined that these shotguns fall within this definition.

Classifying these weapons as destructive devices under the NFA requires the current possessor to file an ATF Form 1, fingerprint cards, and a current photograph to effect the registration of the firearm. The initial registration is tax exempt. Any subsequent transfer must be approved in advance and would result in transfer tax liability of $200. The possessor must register the weapon as soon as possible after learning of the registration requirement, e.g., within thirty days. Weapons not registered within the allowable time frame are subject to seizure and forfeiture, and the possessor subject to a criminal fine of up to $250,000 or up to 10 years in jail, or both.

Those who didn't receive any notice or learned about the classification a bit too late were told that their only choice were to remove certain features, or to abandon said shotgun to the local law enforcement.

PaddyWhacked · January 25, 2009, 12:58 PM

Thanks for the info.

They're going to start banning pencils in school soon because of a "stabbing hazard." I'm so sick of them trying to "protect" us. Don't they realize all it's doing is hindering my ability to protect myself? Do they really think if someone has a firearm and is intending to do harm to me with it, that they were going to pay attention to any other laws involving said firearm? "Well I'm going to go shoot this guy, but I had better not do it with this bigger illegal gun. I think I'll go with the legal one instead." Riiiiiiiiight....

BigPepe · January 25, 2009, 02:28 PM

Hey guys, look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te91g9Yr5g8 that´s great!

Playboypenguin · January 25, 2009, 02:30 PM

I would love to just a semi-auto version of this gun for civilian purchase. I had never seen a drum fed shotgun before this one.

PaddyWhacked · January 25, 2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Hey guys, look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te91g9Yr5g8 that´s great!

I'd have taken that car.

johnwilliamson062 · January 25, 2009, 08:18 PM

any thought on this being vehicle mounted? I am not sure if it has much advantage over a .50 cal, except possibly with the explosive rounds. Obviously there is the semi-auto grenade launcher that beats it there. Sure seems to me like this might be good to have and be able to switch back and forth in some situations. Certainly not belt fed, as most vehicle mounted weapons are and should be. Would alleviate all the worries about heavy ammo and mags.

I guess since the 40mm grenade launchers can also unload shot I can't come up with much for this.

Maybe a sentry in a primarily fixed position? I wouldn't want it for anything except a day at the range.

Now the Saiga 12...

Scattergun Bob · January 25, 2009, 09:48 PM

They do have the AA-12 as a duel mount for vehicles, it's called the hammer. I think if you search you-tube you will hopefully find a clip. They had the mount on a RV at the last NTOA exposition and we got to play with the joy stick controls

.

freakintoguns · January 26, 2009, 02:03 AM

id think that if the military saya need for a shotgun capable of holding 20-30 riounds they would simply throw money at Remington Mossberg and/or benelli to deve;op said weapon.... but the AA 12 is hella cool! what about Spaz 12s? i gotta friend that swears by em

publius · January 27, 2009, 08:05 PM

talk about smokin'some snow geese. Be great for the no limit, no mag restriction spring season.

January 24, 2009, 03:37 AM	#26
4thPointofContact Junior member Join Date: September 22, 2007 Posts: 197	I don't think they are as far apart as some might think. The fact that one is a magazine-fed, semi-automatic and the other is a fixed, revolving cylinder double action, is at best, a mere triviality to the BATFE. I would gently remind everyone that both the StreetSweeper and the USAS-12 were both classified as DD's by our benevolent protectors. Per 26 U.S.C. § 5845(f) "...Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;..." That's all the Gov't cares about, is it over .50 caliber and does the Secretary find it to be generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes. It's a mere formality, a stroke of the proverbial pen for the Secretary (with no apparent oversight) to declare that a shotgun is no longer particularly suitable for sporting purposes should it be equipped with X, Y, and or Z, instead of the way it was originally manufactured/imported with A, B, and or C. Current reading seems to be that the Secretary will determine if a particular shotgun is Not particularly suitable for sporting purposes. How much of a stretch is it to change the reading so that the any .50 or above shotgun is a DD until, and if, "...the Secretary finds that it is particularly suitable for sporting purposes..."? If the Secretary withholds the determination that a particular model is domesticated enough for 'sporting purposes', then guess what it winds up as? Do we really want someone making a determination that a Ducks Unlimited Remington 870 is ""sporting"" but a Police Magnum 870 isn't? Last edited by 4thPointofContact; January 24, 2009 at 03:47 AM.

January 25, 2009, 02:28 PM	#31
BigPepe Junior Member Join Date: January 25, 2009 Posts: 1	Cool Saiga video Hey guys, look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te91g9Yr5g8 that´s great!

January 25, 2009, 09:48 PM	#35
Scattergun Bob Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: Nine Mile Falls, Washington Posts: 1,186	John They do have the AA-12 as a duel mount for vehicles, it's called the hammer. I think if you search you-tube you will hopefully find a clip. They had the mount on a RV at the last NTOA exposition and we got to play with the joy stick controls. __________________ First, with the most, WINS! Regards, Scattergun Bob

January 27, 2009, 08:05 PM	#37
publius Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Location: Mississippi/Texas Posts: 2,505	talk about smokin'some snow geese. Be great for the no limit, no mag restriction spring season. __________________ "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress, but I repeat myself." Mark Twain

January 24, 2009, 09:17 AM	#28
PaddyWhacked Member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Mentor, KY Posts: 78	Is there a list anywhere of firearms that have been classified as DD's? And which states ban the transfer of DD's to civilians?

January 25, 2009, 12:58 PM	#30
PaddyWhacked Member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Mentor, KY Posts: 78	Thanks for the info. They're going to start banning pencils in school soon because of a "stabbing hazard." I'm so sick of them trying to "protect" us. Don't they realize all it's doing is hindering my ability to protect myself? Do they really think if someone has a firearm and is intending to do harm to me with it, that they were going to pay attention to any other laws involving said firearm? "Well I'm going to go shoot this guy, but I had better not do it with this bigger illegal gun. I think I'll go with the legal one instead." Riiiiiiiiight....

January 25, 2009, 02:30 PM	#32
Playboypenguin Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 11,515	I would love to just a semi-auto version of this gun for civilian purchase. I had never seen a drum fed shotgun before this one.

January 25, 2009, 08:18 PM	#34
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	any thought on this being vehicle mounted? I am not sure if it has much advantage over a .50 cal, except possibly with the explosive rounds. Obviously there is the semi-auto grenade launcher that beats it there. Sure seems to me like this might be good to have and be able to switch back and forth in some situations. Certainly not belt fed, as most vehicle mounted weapons are and should be. Would alleviate all the worries about heavy ammo and mags. I guess since the 40mm grenade launchers can also unload shot I can't come up with much for this. Maybe a sentry in a primarily fixed position? I wouldn't want it for anything except a day at the range. Now the Saiga 12...

January 26, 2009, 02:03 AM	#36
freakintoguns Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2008 Posts: 496	id think that if the military saya need for a shotgun capable of holding 20-30 riounds they would simply throw money at Remington Mossberg and/or benelli to deve;op said weapon.... but the AA 12 is hella cool! what about Spaz 12s? i gotta friend that swears by em