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Old July 29, 2013, 08:18 AM   #1
Bill Akins
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A semi-auto BP 1866 Remy carbine?

As I wait for my Uberti 1866 Remy revolving carbine to arrive. A thought which I have thought about (as well as researched into before) re-occurred to me.

I was again thinking about if I drilled out my Remy's nipples, so that more gas force could come through them, to blow the spent cap off the nipple and the spent cap's rearward force inertia, force upon the hammer to cock it. Kind of like the short stroke piston in an M1 carbine forces upon the op rod but doesn't have to travel full length with the op rod. Same idea here.

The problem is, even if I got it working that way, since the hammer of the Remy wouldn't lock in the cocked position (as long as I held my trigger rearward), it would just go full auto and I'd be unable to stop it until I either released the trigger, or all cylinders were fired. That isn't my goal.

So I'd have to modify the internals in some way so that the hammer was held back in the cocked position until I released tension from holding the trigger rearward, whereupon by my releasing the trigger, it would set it so that another pull on the trigger would drop the hammer.

So the question is: What would be the easiest and least troublesome way to modify the internals to do that, that would also not be a major modification to the revolver that couldn't be undone? I was thinking of something attached to the trigger that when the trigger had already allowed the hammer to fall, if the trigger was continued to be held back, wouldn't allow the hammer to fall again until the trigger was fully released and functioned again. Just like on any semi-auto weapon. But how to do it the easiest and best way that would require the least amount of modification to the hammer or trigger, and with little to no modification to the inside of the frame?

Any ideas guys?



.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; July 29, 2013 at 08:27 AM.
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Old July 29, 2013, 11:54 AM   #2
bedbugbilly
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Ahhhhhhhh . . . . this belongs in the "semi-auto" section?

As far as shooting . . . one thing I would not like about it is that say you fired three shots with the hammer automatically cocking upon firing. . . and then you dont need to continue shooting (I'm thinking of a hunting scenario). As a safety issue, you'd lower the hammer. Upon cocking again to shoot, the loaded chamber under the hammer would advance, you'd have two more shots and then have to determine the position of the still loaded chamber. On a standard revolver, when you fired your last shot would have the hammer resting on an empty chamber. Maybe not a big deal to some, but personally, I wouldn't like it. But . . . if your system is going to blow the spent caps off of the fired chambers . . . I guess you could just look for the chamber that is capped, rotate the cylinder to the correct position so when you are ready, you could fire the remaining loaded chamber?

That said, I think your thoughts on it are very creative . . . and hey . . . it's that kind of thinking whereby new things get invented! I'll be interested to read Doc Hoy's thoughts on this when he chimes in . . . after all, Doc is the only one I know who can buy a pistol, have "extra parts" fall out and end up with it working perfectly! Seriously .. . . he has some very insightful "engineering thoughts" at times on things and I wouldn't be surprised if he will have some interesting suggestions.

Interesting Bill . . . anxious to see where this leads!
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Old July 29, 2013, 01:10 PM   #3
Bill Akins
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Thanks for your thoughts on it BBB. But I don't think the hammer being cocked over a live chamber, and then having to carefully lower the hammer to a safe position after firing a time or two would be a problem. It would be the same thing if you were hunting with any semi-auto and you fired a time or two. You'd still have a (internal or exposed) hammer cocked over a live round in the chamber and have to make the weapon safe.

I've brought this up before here in another old thread entitled "Muzzleloading semi-auto/full auto concepts" that went on for 8 pages discussing the concept of turning a BP revolver and non revolver into a semi auto, at this link....
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460489

But I didn't resurrect that thread because a lot of my pictures from that thread don't show up anymore since "Webshots" where I used to upload my pictures closed down. Now I use photobucket for that, but it messed up a lot of my old threads due to the pics no longer showing up. Some of the pics that I copied directly from the internet still show up, but none of the ones I uploaded to Webshots do. And some of the critical pics were the diagrams and drawings I drew, and none of those show up now. I still have them, but too much hassle to upload them all over again to webshots and I can't replace them into my old thread anyway since it is too old to allow me to edit it.

I know that drilling out the nipples to have a larger nipple hole would work because one time I was shooting one of my old BP revolvers I no longer have, and it was either the Walker or the G&G, (can't remember), but on one of them one time I loaded a heavy charge and it caused the hammer to either cock fully, or go to half cock (also can't remember which). But the point is, I know the nipple blowback either fully cocked or half cocked the hammer. And that was WITHOUT drilling out the nipples to have a larger hole.

Of course as I mentioned in my earlier thread, that would be a very forceful and abrupt way to cock the hammer and I have no idea what affect that might have regarding galling or wear on the parts doing that. Some sort of less abrupt method would be optimal of course, but I'm thinking of trying the drilled out nipples since that would be the easiest and simplest way. That's not a problem since I'd just start with the smallest drill bit at first and work my way up between test fires until it got to the point where it would cock the hammer.

The problem would be figuring out a way to create a disconnector so the hammer would stay cocked while the trigger was still held to the rear, and then allow the hammer to fall again once I released the trigger and then functioned it again. THAT'S what I'd have to work out and to do so without any modification to the frame. I don't mind replacing a few internal parts if I messed them up without success, but I don't want to do any mods to the frame for obvious reasons.

I'd like to work on this, but there is no sense in me drilling out nipples until I can first figure out how to mod the internals to create a disconnector to allow the hammer to remain cocked while the trigger was fully depressed, and to figure out how to do that without any modification to the frame of the Remy.



.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; July 29, 2013 at 01:25 PM.
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Old July 30, 2013, 02:32 PM   #4
noelf2
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Bill you're crazy!

If you plan to shoot the revolver normal fashion, looking down the sights, your face gets pretty close to the hammer. You will find you get a little hot cap fragments and grit in your face after each shot. If you open up the nipples, you'll get some extra gas and powder fouling as well. By the time you shoot off all 5 (or 6) you're gonna look like a vaudeville act.
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Last edited by noelf2; July 30, 2013 at 02:47 PM.
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Old July 30, 2013, 03:55 PM   #5
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Noelf2 wrote:
Bill you're crazy!
Well we know that. And your point is? ROFL

Quote:
Noelf2 wrote:
If you plan to shoot the revolver normal fashion, looking down the sights, your face gets pretty close to the hammer. You will find you get a little hot cap fragments and grit in your face after each shot.
Yes I know. I plan to wear eye protection for sure, maybe even a full face mask of some sort. Seriously, I'm thinking of stitching a face guard piece of leather to the bottom of the leather padded edging of my split lens WW2 battle of Britain style goggles so my entire face is covered. "Who is that masked man?" (Strains of the 4th movement of Gioachino Rossini's "William Tell" overture in the background ). "Hmmm, Tonto think Kimosabe heap plenty crazy, wear mask not as symbol of justice, but to keep cap pieces and powder out of pale face". "Hiyo Silv....crap, got a cap fragment in my mouth, patoooe!" .

Quote:
Noelf2 wrote:
If you open up the nipples, you'll get some extra gas and powder fouling as well. By the time you shoot off all 5 (or 6) you're gonna look like a vaudeville act.
(In my best Al Jolson "blackface")..."Mammy, my little mammy, the sun shines east, the sun shines west, but I like shooting my black powder best"....mammy, don't ya know me? It's your little baby Remy!...Mammy....my little mammy, I'd walk a million miles for a blackpowder shooting stile, my maaaaaammy. Wait a minute folks, you ain't heard nothin yet...(second verse) Maaaaammy...(Just kidding, that's enough 1920's blackface Jolson.)

Not even sure I'm going to do anything Noelf, but I am thinking about it. Just have to wait and see how much time (and health) I have available. Intense pain going down my leg. Bulging disk (or bone spur) is digging into my sciatic nerve. Going for an MRI tomorrow. Doc has me on heavy steroids in the meantime til we see if surgery is necessary (it will be, had two spine surgeries with "cages" implanted in my spine already for same thing). So just have to see how much time I have for experimentation and also have to FIRST figure out a disconnect for the trigger/hammer or else there's no sense in drilling out the nipples. Might have to take care of my back issue first before I do anything else (including just going shooting), and who knows how long that is going to take. You know how slow these doctor's and their appointments/surgery appointments are. So I truck along and do what I can do. That's all I CAN do.

(Jolson in blackface again)
"Though April showers may come your way, shooting black powder, will make your day!".

(And all the youngsters wondered: "What's a vaudeville act?" "What is blackface?" "Who's Al Jolson?".)

Kind of reminds me of something the old western actor (evil eye) Jack Elam once said in an interview regarding an actors life and the passage of time. The producer/director says:.....

"Who's Jack Elam? (Then it's) Get me Jack Elam. (Then it's) Get me a Jack Elam type. (Then it's) Who's Jack Elam?



.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; July 30, 2013 at 11:26 PM.
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Old July 31, 2013, 10:29 AM   #6
noelf2
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Well Bill I hope all works out for ya. I have sciatica and at times it's damn near unbearable. As for my carbine, I converted it to 45lc with a howell's 5 shot conversion. No more copper bits in the face for me, and just no way to make it semi-auto.
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Old July 31, 2013, 10:47 AM   #7
Bill Akins
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Noelf2, the 5 & 1/2 inch barrel Uberti Remy I bought a few weeks ago, came with a conversion cylinder. So I can also use that same conversion cylinder to shoot in my 1866 Uberti revolving Carbine too. Kinda nice having the Uberti handgun and carbine that both take the same percussion and conversion cylinders.



.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".
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Old July 31, 2013, 11:02 AM   #8
noelf2
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Quote:
Kinda nice having the Uberti handgun and carbine that both take the same percussion and conversion cylinders.
Yes it is, but they're gonna fight over that conversion cylinder. My bet is the carbine will win out.
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Old August 2, 2013, 08:29 PM   #9
Bill Akins
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Noelf2, As I mentioned, in firing the Remy carbine, with the caps and nipple blowback so close to my face, I was thinking about a full face mask to protect my face. I was thinking of goggles with a full face leather mask attached to them. Perhaps something like this, only with goggles attached. These stills are from the Republic 1938 Lone Ranger movie, showing the Lone Ranger wearing a FULL face mask as opposed to that little joke of a mask we usually see and are supposed to believe no one can recognize him under that much smaller mask. That full face mask from 1938 is believable that no one could recognize who was under it. Now that (along with Clayton Morre and Jay Silverheels) is the way the Lone Ranger and Tonto should look. Not that latest joke of a Lone Ranger movie with Johnney Depp running around with a dead bird on his head and the lone ranger being a bungling fool and without a costume except for his mask. What a disgrace to the genre of the lone ranger that movie was. Even its special effects didn't make up for bad characterization, poor acting, bad costuming and just an overall "stinker". I'm glad it did poorly at the box office. I thought Klinton Spilsbury's version in 1981 was the worst, but this latest 2013 version with Johnney Depp makes that 1981 version actually look good.







I'm not totally sure, but it appears to be made of leather with some sort of screen mesh attached to its bottom area where the nose, mouth and chin are. Something like that with goggles instead of just eye openings would be perfect for shooting the Remy revolving carbine with its spent caps and flying particles so close to my face. But maybe without the mesh, since powder particles could still get through that to mark my face. Maybe a full leather one in that style (only without the mesh) sewed to the bottom of my goggles I already have. That should protect the face and eyes sufficiently.

Oh, bye the way, this evening I just won another Uberti Remy revolving carbine on Gunbroker for the very low price of $370.00, a full $35.00 under what I paid for my last one that was still a good deal at $405.00. They go for between $550.00 and $600.00 brand new. I haven't even received my other one yet, (tracking number says it is due to arrive tomorrow). I didn't really need another one, but the price was so low compared to what these usually go for, I figured it would be a good investment. No idea why no one else bid on it, perhaps because the seller only has 1 feedback point and hasn't been on gunbroker very long. So soon I'll have two of them. Might sell one later on, just have to see. Here's the link......

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=356580752




.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; August 2, 2013 at 09:03 PM.
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Old August 3, 2013, 10:01 AM   #10
4V50 Gary
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Welding helmet - it's the only way to do it safely.

I know Garand worked on a primer activated semi. If I had to try making something, it would have the zig-zag cylinder cuts like the Webley Fosbery. Perhaps the zig-zag could be activated by an arm attached to a gas cylinder & piston/op rod (that rotates the cylinder).
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Old August 4, 2013, 04:22 PM   #11
Bill Akins
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Hi Gary. I already covered using a Webley Fosbery type of zig zag cylinder cut cylinder as well as using a gas piston in my earlier thread here.....
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460489

(Unfortunately lots of my pics and drawings from that thread don't show up anymore since Webshots where I used to upload pics at went out of business.)

Although I might come back to the zig zag cylinder and gas piston later on for experimentation, I'd first like to try the simplest and hopefully most easy way to recock the hammer by using nipple blowback against the hammer by drilling out the nipples. But no matter whether one uses nipple blowback, or a gas piston or any other method of recocking the hammer semi-automatically, the problem of creating a trigger to hammer disconnect must still be done in order for the hammer to stay cocked until one releases the trigger and then functions it again.

So the first thing that has to be figured out is how to create a trigger to hammer disconnector. Until then there is no reason to drill out any nipples until that obstacle is overcome. Sure I could try drilling out the nipples without a disconnector, but that might cause the revolver to go uncontrollably full auto, and even though that wouldn't be illegal since a muzzle loader is considered a non firearm under the NFA, and therefore cannot legally be classified as a machine gun if it is not a firearm, full auto in this instance isn't my goal.



.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".
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Old August 4, 2013, 04:34 PM   #12
Bill Akins
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The first of my two recently won at auction Uberti revolving carbines arrived yesterday. Cylinder indexing and lockup is very tight. No wiggle nor play at all in the cylinder either hammer down or hammer cocked. Very impressive. The blue finish is very nice and this carbine looks like it was hardly shot. Rifling in the barrel is mirror bright with no pits of any kind. No major dings nor dents in the stock. Just a few small tiny ding handling marks that are not really noticeable. All the cylinders line up with the barrel when looking down the muzzle.

The only flaw I could find on the entire gun was a very teeny tiny little nick on the top of the barrel where it looked like something banged into it. And even that is so small you have to really look hard to see it. Otherwise except for the cylinder turn line, it looks brand new. I saved over $200.00 off retail by buying it used and to me it is almost nice brand new. I'd love to shoot it but my back is bad and until I get that addressed, I won't be shooting. So all I can do right now is give a visual evaluation. I'll do the same when the other carbine arrives that I won on Friday.

When my back gets better I'll shoot them and try to start working on how to create a trigger to hammer disconnect to enable semi-auto shooting, if it is even possible to create said disconnect without modifying the frame permanently in any way. If it's not possible to do without modifying the frame, then I won't do it. These are too expensive to go chopping on the frame, so whatever I might do, has to be designed AROUND the frame without modifying it.

In fact I might use my Remy handgun rather than the carbine to do my disconnector work on, since it costs less than the carbine and if it works on the handgun, it will work on the carbine too. I have an extra Remy hammer I might take a look at to see what I might could add to the hammer to enable a disconnect to hold the hammer back while the trigger was still depressed until the trigger is released and then functioned again. But again, it has to be done without any permanent modifying of the frame.




.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; August 4, 2013 at 04:44 PM.
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Old August 5, 2013, 05:44 AM   #13
Bill Akins
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Some pics of my 1866 Remington carbine

Got a chance to take a few pics of it. Here it is next to my Remy handgun and also with and without the conversion cylinder in it.











and one from the auction.




.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".
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