Looking to reload 45 ACP with lead

[Khaot1c]

I've got a little experience reloading .40 S&W and 9mm Luger. However, I've only bought Rainer Flat Nose and Round nose bullets for those loads. Even when I compare those bullets to other Jacketed brands of the same weight - they "look" the same without actually breaking out the calipers and taking measurements. Still, I’m using data that calls out a "Rainer 180gr Flat Nose" so I know that load was developed specifically for that bullet.

That's where I get confused about "lead" bullets that I’m looking to use for .45 ACP . Within the same caliber and weight, bullets from Brand "A" look different than bullets from Brand "B". Yet, load data in my Lee manual just says "Lead 230gr Round Nose" -

So how can it be, with bullets that look so different, can you use the generic heading "lead bullet" and still obtain safe and reliable results?

[k4swb]

The real simple answer is that no part of the bullet that does not contact the barrel when fired has any affect on pressure or other stuff that can get you into trouble. If bullets are made from the same material and have similar bearing surfaces and weight there is really nothing to differentiate them.

I'm sure others will be along shortly to confuse things.

[Usertag]

I don't Know, What you should do. I hear reloaded ammo using lead. Can be bad for a gun. Like the Glock, It especifically say's don't use reloaded ammo. But if both brand's are lead, I would go with the Flat nose. Unless you know that your gun with choke up on them.

[carprivershooter]

I think is has more to do with the bullet weight then shape. I would check with other reloading resources. and check with powder manufactures also. I am not an expert. Shape does figure into the velocity Look at the amount of powder used for other lead bullets of the same wieght to get and idea of the powder needed. Starting loads are just that starting points. If I remember Rainer suggests that you use load data for lead bullets so the copper isn't stripped off at higher velocity. I am not the expert.

[Khaot1c]

Correct. Rainer says to use the load data for lead bullets or subtract 10% from the same size Jacketed bullet. And with Rainer bullets i'm 100% fine.

I want to use lead with a Kimber Eclipse Target II - .45 ACP. I never plan to load "hot" and want to use lead because it is the most economical which I translate as getting more bangs out of the buck. I've heard A LOT of 1911 owners reload lead and figure it must be safe for that style of pistol. Likewise, the majority of my shooting will be done on outside ranges - which again points to lead as OK.

There are more sites online than i can possibly bookmark that sell lead bullets and my local reloading supplies vendor carries a brand called Missouri bullets or so such.

So that's the real question, can i use "any" lead bullet and "any" lead bullet data and have low-risk results - starting with the "START" load of course.

Only thing i saw was that my "LEE" book calls 3.8grains of Bullseye a MAX load for lead and a LOT of folks are shooting 4.0grains in 5 inch barrels calling that a 'moderate' and highly accurate load. Using the 230grain round nose that i'm considering.....

[SauerGrapes]

I load 200gr SWC using the Lee manual. Thier load data has worked fine for me in both my 45s. [S&W 4506 and SA 1911]
If your just punching paper, consider the 200r SWC. Every bullseye shooter uses lead SWC because it punches a near perfect hole in the target.
Two of the guys at the club shoot your gun and they both use 200gr SWCs. For target shooting something in the 720 to 760fps tends to be the most accurate.
If you want to use RN bullets, you may have to play with the COAL to fit your gun depending on configuration of the head.

BTW, every gun manufacturer says "don't use hand loaded ammo in their guns. It's a lawyer thing.....

[Clifford L. Hughes]

Khaot1c:

For thirty years I've loaded pistol bullets that I have cast from scrap lead. I didn't load to maximum nor did I pay any attention to bullet shape or hardness. I loaded .38 special, .44 Mag, .45 ACP and .45 Colt. However, I've never loaded a copper plated bullet. I don't think that the copper plating is thick enough to cause pressure problems. Just remember to start powder charges low and watch for pressure signs.

I've heard that two many lead bullets will ruin a pistol. I don't believe this. My Modle 29 Smith and Wesson has had thousands of rounds shot through it and the inside of the barrel looks new.

Semper Fi.

Gunnery Sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired

[overkill0084]

I shoot Missouri Bullets 230 gr RN (Softball, 18 BH) all the time. I use 4.6 gr. Bullseye primarily. It's reliable, accurate and knocks down the bowling pins effectively. It works well in My SA 1911 and my Witness Match. I've used AA#5 & Unique in the past w/ good results as well.
Don't let cosmetic differences complicate things too much. It's by no means gospel, but most of the time, bullets of a similar design are going to behave in a similar manner. Start low & work up on charge weight. Also, the Lee 2nd Edition is ok, but consider getting another manual to suppliment things. I recommend the Lyman 49th. I may use 3 or 4 different sources to arrive a a starting point for a specific load. I have the Lyman & Lee manuals. I check the powder manufaucturer's data. If applicable, the bullet manufacturer. There can be a lot of disagreement between various sources, I know it's probably not proper to some, but sometimes an educated (conservative) guess is your best course.

[ipscchef]

As long as you use data that is published by a known source, (generaly, that is a company that you know), you will be fine with basicaly any fairly "standard" lead bullet profile.

As has already been stated here, in a magazine fed gun, bullet profile above the shank, (the length of the bullet that actualy makes contact with the lands and grooves), has very little bearing on what we are discussing here. The shank and the bullet mass are the two factors that are of concern here.

And yes, you can use generaly any lead profile bullet in a given weight and procceed safely, IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE. What that means, is if you change calibers, firearms brand, barrel brand, or go from handgun to long gun, then you need to go back to square one and start again.


I shot a "modified" Kimber Custom Classic for over 14 years in IPSC or USPSA matches. I ran about 22,000 rounds through it in matches, in addition to approx. 12-15000 rounds in practice and plinking. Over 30,000 of those were lead bullets. You are right that they are a great alternative for economical, accurate shooting.

Missouri Bullet Co. makes very good bullets, as do several others, IMHO.
A couple of others that I would recomend are "Leadhead Bullets",
(www.proshootpro.com) and "Oregon Trail" Bullets, makers of the "Lazercast Bullet". I used this bullet in 250gr. for many years in competition, the extra mass, over the usual 230gr., helped knock down the Steel Plates and heavy "Pepper Poppers" at 20+
yards. It worked, also giving a more manageble recoil pulse, allowing for somewhat faster doubletaps, or followup shots, esp. in .45acp.

Two resources that I would reccomend in addition to the very fine Lee Manual. the first is the Lyman Reloading Handbook. In addition to having one of the most well written, in depth, complete, and easy to read sections on how to handload, it also has more Cast Bullet Handloading recipes and tips than I have ever found, anywhere.

One other resource I would reccomend is "Beartooth Bullets" online. They sell excellent cast Bullets, and have many hundreds of load recipes, from them, and from people who go there to post there own loads and results.
PROCEED WITH EXTREME CAUTION WHEN USING ANY HANDLOADS THAT ARE NOT PUBLISHED BY ANYONE WHO DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS TO PRESSURE TESTING EQUIPMENT!!!

One more point I would like to make before I wrap up my rather long winded response. Another poster said something to the effect that others will come on here and "Confuse things". While this could be true on rare occasion,
when it comes to any subject related to firearms, The Firing Line is home to many of the most knowlegable, experienced and intelligent persons on any given related subject on the planet. That is a fact. The intelligence and experience levels shown by many here is staggering. BTW; I AM CERTAINLY NOT IN THAT CATEGORY!!! NOT BY A LONG SHOT!!! (Pun Intended)

So yes, go ahead and use just about any profile in any given weight, and you will be fine if you are following published data. It is perfectly safe and fine to shoot cast bullets in your Kimber. There are other companies that do not want you to use them in their guns, so just do what they say. But I would suggest starting SLIGHTLY ABOVE minimum loads in almost any gun, you will still be safe, but I have seen where, on a very tight bore, a min. load go so slow as to exit the barrel at a velocity so slow as to give me great concern. I could watch the bullet all the way to the target. Bad idea.

I hope that if I have not bored you to death, I have at least given some help.

Bill "Willy" Henderson

[PawPaw]

Originally Posted by Usertag

I don't Know, What you should do. I hear reloaded ammo using lead. Can be bad for a gun. Like the Glock, It especifically say's don't use reloaded ammo

Well, punctuation and sentence structure would be a place to start, but lead bullets aren't a problem.

You do realize that until recently (a hundred years ago or so) all ammo was lead? Using lead in any handgun isn't a new thing, yet folks get wrapped around themselves trying to figure it out.

I run lots of lead in my Kimber and I like 230 grain bullets, either round nose or truncated cone, whatever I've got on hand at the time. I happen to use Bullseye powder for the .45 ACP with lead bullets. It's worked well for me for many years.

[Khaot1c]

Credibility is key – absolutely. When I first started reloading with Rainer bullets I could only find creditable data that used AA powders. When I started loading for 9mm I still wanted to use Rainer bullets (mostly because of their price) but couldn’t find AA powder at the local supplier anymore. That’s when I got brave so to speak and followed Rainer’s own advice about adjusting loads for FMJ bullets as starting loads for their bullets. The end result there was Power Pistol.

So when I finally got my Kimber in the collection, it only makes sense that I would want to reload ammo for it as well. Yup, the lawyers made sure the “don’t use reloaded ammo” statement is in the owners manual of all my (our) firearms, but we wouldn’t be in this forum if we didn’t know how safe it was. My dad, uncle and their dad had a reloading “corner” in the basement of our house while I was growing up – and they too cast their own lead bullets. So I had NO reservations about trying to reload myself – but I’ll leaving casting alone for now…..

I also agree that this place has a lot of highly knowledgeable visitors. It makes a great place to visit when I need a splash of hobby in my lunch hour or with morning coffee.

[GeauxTide]

My most accurate loads are with 200gr SWC and Unique.

[chris in va]

I use my Lee 452-228-1R cast boolits in my G21SF exclusively. Can't recall ever putting a FMJ through it yet.

Care to see what the barrel looks like after 200 rounds downrange?

Let's just say my Sig 220 leaded a *lot* worse, and it has traditional rifling.

[crowbeaner]

I use large primer brass, 200 grain lead (either swc or rfn) and 5.0 of Titegroup or WW231. Some guns will feed the swc without modification, and some won't. You'll have to try them in yours to see which bullet is best.

[Powderman]

Like one of the earlier posters, I cast bullets for my Model 29. The load it likes is the 250 grain Keith style LSWC, cast from wheelweight and sized to .430. I lube with Javelina Alox--a soft lube--and load it on 8.5 of Unique. I prefer Winchester and Federal primers, although I'll use most anything. I put an estimated 20K rounds downrange before I sent it back to Smith and Wesson to have the forcing cone recut.

I have two favorite .45 ACP practice loads. My Bullseye load is the 200 grain LSWC, HG 68 design, also cast from wheelweights, water quenched and sized to .452. These get loaded on 3.8 of Clays, and the diameter measured after a taper crimp is applied is .470. I don't know how many thousands of these I have fired, and I have absolutely zero problems with leading.

My favorite general practice load is the same bullet, loaded on 4.5 of HP38. this load duplicates the point of impact of my duty load, and I use it for general practice and fun shooting.

[Shootest]

It has been my experience that a lead 230gr round nose is a lead 230gr round nose. Just start low and work up your powder charge. Why the Lee book states 3.8g Bullseye as max for 230g LRN is beyond me, I have used 4.5g for years with great results. My data shows 5.0g as max. A 230g LRN doesn't make a nice clean round hole in paper like a 200 LSWC does, but if you want to use LRN then use them.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by k4swb

The real simple answer is that no part of the bullet that does not contact the barrel when fired has any affect on pressure or other stuff that can get you into trouble. If bullets are made from the same material and have similar bearing surfaces and weight there is really nothing to differentiate them.

I'm sure others will be along shortly to confuse things.

Ok, as promised. But I will try to be not confusing as I introduce one complexity.

One thing that will affect pressure is the volume inside the case under the bullet. When a loading manual specifies an overall length (OAL) for a cartridge with a specific weight bullet, they have a pretty good idea of the length of the bullet and how much volume is underneath it. A hollowpoint bullet will be longer than a round nose of the same weight. A flat point, or wadcutter will be shorter at the same weight. If three similar cartridges are loaded with the same weight bullets to the same OAL but the bullets are 1) Semi-wadcutter or flat-point, 2) Round-nose or 3) hollowpoint, they will have different volumes under the bullet.

The smaller volume underneath the hollowpoint will give rise to higher pressures than under a round nose. And the larger volume under a semi-wadcutter will produce lower pressures. A small change in that volume gives rise to a large change in pressure.

Internal Ballistics is the study of what happens between breechface and muzzle when you light one up. It is complex, but not incomprehensible. Go slow, take care and only make changes a little at a time.

Lost Sheep

[Edward429451]

So how can it be, with bullets that look so different, can you use the generic heading "lead bullet" and still obtain safe and reliable results?

The short answer is by using the starting loads. Loading lead boolits are arguably the safest because for one thing lead always takes less powder than a comparable but jacketed bullet because of less friction than copper. Loading 45acp is especially forgiving because it operates at a very low pressure of <18K or thereabouts.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be cautious, just that theres no need to be afraid of loading lead 45's. It's one of the easiest loading cartridges I've ever loaded for.

[k4swb]

This

If bullets are made from the same material and have similar bearing surfaces and weight there is really nothing to differentiate them.

Addresses all of this

The smaller volume underneath the hollowpoint will give rise to higher pressures than under a round nose. And the larger volume under a semi-wadcutter will produce lower pressures. A small change in that volume gives rise to a large change in pressure.

The similar bearing surfaces is key.