Ha! My employer just modified company policy to disallow firearms on the premises...

Uncle Malice · July 8, 2009, 03:07 PM

I live in Phoenix, and as everyone knows, Arizona is a VERY gun-friendly state. I guess my employer doesn't feel quite so liberal. Which makes sense, I suppose. The owner is originally from IL... but so am I!!

Anyways, I'm not really complaining so much, as I am just ranting. I know of about 6 other people who CCW daily... including work. I think the change was made because I invited my boss to come to the range with me and a coworker... he said he would, but seemed a bit hesitant so I didn't ask again. I figured I would let it be his choice.

Just received an email about the company policy changing, effective as of September that no weapons shall be allowed on the company property.

Apparently we scared the liberal Wisconsin-native...

This is kind of irritating. Number one reason is that I am the first one in the building every morning at 5am to open up shop. It's still a dark parking lot and while I'm not particularly scared of anything happening, there's still a chance for danger. A distant second on the list is having to leave my firearm in my car during the days of 115-120F heat... Sucks!!!

Uncle Malice · July 8, 2009, 03:26 PM

Update: After speaking with the boss(who forwarded me a copy of the revised policy), I asked if there was a reason why it was sent directly to me.

He told me that I was the only one "that he knew of" who had a weapon on the premises.

So clearly, my mistake was not that I had it; but rather that I offered to take him to the range and let him use mine, and educate him on the use of firearms and informing him of my carry permit.

Not to mention that the Vice President of Sales has a CCW and carries daily... and he has been with the company for 14 years.

So much for opening my mouth!!

Glock-19 · July 8, 2009, 03:27 PM

Its concealed for a reason, no one will know you have it unless you need it. I'm guessing if you actually need it you won't be worrying about losing your job, because you will still have your life.

CWPinSC · July 8, 2009, 03:32 PM

Unless the policy is company-wide, for every employee, it's not legal.

Your alternatives:
1. Carry and take a chance on getting caught, which will probably get you fired.
2. Don't carry and take a chance on something worse than getting fired happening.
3. Quit.

liberty1 · July 8, 2009, 03:34 PM

My company which employs thousands nationwide has policy that does not allow even so much as a knife in your car while you are on the property.

spacemanspiff · July 8, 2009, 03:35 PM

You could always play their game and whine about being discriminated against by their sending you the policy directly. It could be a form of harrassment to be singled out like that.

When the insurance office I work at was writing up their employee handbooks they never noticed that I edited the section on weapons so that it would prohibit illegal weapons.

Now though, we adopted the handbook from our parent office, which is based in Chicago, and they don't even have any weapon policy at all, I guess since handguns are banned in Chicago their lawyers figured it wasn't an issue.

Mike Pearce · July 8, 2009, 04:33 PM

Earlier this year, Utah passed a law that allows guns in any parked car. The employer cannot prohibit leaving your gun in your car when you work.

PhoenixConflagration · July 8, 2009, 04:38 PM

Nice Spiff. I use the same argument at the mall. Their sign says "No firearms or other illegal weapons", and since my firearm is not illegal, I'm okay! As for work, I left my gun in my glove box for a few months, then said [sic]. I carry at work anyway. It's concealed.

PhoenixConflagration · July 8, 2009, 04:39 PM

A lot of states have the same law that Mike above mentioned. Check yours.

greyson97 · July 8, 2009, 04:39 PM

Parking lot counts towards company policy, so you cant leave your gun in your car.

The great state of texas passed a law allowing employees to have guns in their car despite company policy not allowing guns on company property.

SwampYankee · July 8, 2009, 04:40 PM

I spend a considerable amount of time finding ways to cause trouble at work.

Mind you, nothing illegal or violent. Just the insidious, politically motivated trouble that makes people other than myself look like idiots. It is a talent I have, rooting out stupidity.

You're in a tough situation but you might ask your boss, "What about the VP for sales? Does this apply to executives too?" You're not really tattling on him, just looking for clarification. When they find out that one of their own is carrying, things may change. To them, you are a peon. You can be abused and treated like crap. He is not. He may even put up enough of a stink to change things. You may also want to forward the email to the VP and see what he says.

But I do like this:

Quote:

It could be a form of harrassment to be singled out like that.

If they pulled that garbage where I worked, I would be a millionaire. I can only hope (but they are generally not THAT stupid).

Doc Intrepid · July 8, 2009, 04:42 PM

Sorry to hear about that, Uncle Malice.

I guess the lesson we all learn is to keep quiet about having weapons on company property? Or the fact that we own weapons at all?

Looks like CWPinSC pegged it...

You have those three options.....

Best with it,

Doc

Uncle Malice · July 8, 2009, 04:45 PM

Haha... excellent for you, spaceman!

Liberty1, Your car is not company property, even if it's parked on company property. They can't say jack about what is in your car.

I'm not too concerned about it.. I talked with the boss to inform him that there are quit a few others who carry, but I won't name them. If it's that much of a concern, they need to make an announcement about it because a lot of people around here carry.

greyson97 · July 8, 2009, 04:54 PM

when i put my hands in my pockets, i am carrying concealed weapons. what are you gonna do about it boss?

6x6pinz · July 8, 2009, 05:16 PM

I feel for you Uncle Malice. There are a lot of rules and changes coming. The most recent one here in Phoenix is directed at such employers. If the employer does not allow firearms to be kept in the car, they must provide separate parking for those who do carry them or a secure place for the firearms to be stored onsite.

Fortunately one of my companies benefits are corporate range passes at a local indoor range. In fact last year 10 of us went through the ccw classes on the companies dime. We called it a team builder

If you catch the boss in a good mood targets and ammo can be had on him.

Steve1911 · July 8, 2009, 08:06 PM

Go to the VP that also carries and see if you two can get together with the others that carry, and see if you can come up with a proposal that a reasonable employer would be ok with.

It is the same principle as unionizing... only without the union part...

I also would see if the VP and the guy that sent the email to you are closer... then see if he would go to the range with the VP.

Or you could get a lawyer and have them send the company a letter... that sometimes works too.......

Uncle Malice · July 8, 2009, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6x6pinz

I feel for you Uncle Malice. There are a lot of rules and changes coming. The most recent one here in Phoenix is directed at such employers. If the employer does not allow firearms to be kept in the car, they must provide separate parking for those who do carry them or a secure place for the firearms to be stored onsite.

Fortunately one of my companies benefits are corporate range passes at a local indoor range. In fact last year 10 of us went through the ccw classes on the companies dime. We called it a team builder If you catch the boss in a good mood targets and ammo can be had on him.

You guys hiring in the IT department?!

B.N.Real · July 8, 2009, 09:09 PM

Liability insurance will normally not cover your company if you allow employees to carry loaded firearms on your premises and something bad happens.

Farmland · July 8, 2009, 09:26 PM

There is no exclusion in the ISO General Liability Insurance forms that would exclude liability for a gun accident or in that fact an employee shooting at your place of employment. I doubt even if they tried a manuscripted exclusion endorsement it would not hold up in the courts either. In any event I have never heard a single case of an insurance company refusing liability arising out of the use or handling of a firearm at a place of employment.

Your only fault was letting work know too much about your personal life. I love firearms but few if any people I work with now my passion for firearms. Personally I would let the matter drop and follow the new company rules. Or at least just not say anything and do what you want with the risk of being terminated.

Walter · July 8, 2009, 10:18 PM

Quote:

The great state of texas passed a law allowing employees to have guns in their car despite company policy not allowing guns on company property.

greyson97, When was this law enacted? I have heard it discussed, but if
it became "Law", I must have been asleep at the wheel, and missed it.

Can you give me any more info on this?

Walter

Playboypenguin · July 8, 2009, 10:22 PM

That sucks. My boss where I work is a grade-a, self absorbed, know-it-all jerk but at least I never have to worry about that happening.

zoomie · July 8, 2009, 10:32 PM

Quote:

greyson97, When was this law enacted? I have heard it discussed, but if it became "Law", I must have been asleep at the wheel, and missed it. Can you give me any more info on this?

The only TX bill I know of dealing with parking lot carry (not saying it's the only bill) was SB730. It died on the calendar at the end of the session.

http://www.legis.state.tx.us/BillLoo...81R&Bill=SB730

Its companion, HB1301 died in committee.

http://www.legis.state.tx.us/BillLoo...1R&Bill=HB1301

G-man 26 · July 8, 2009, 10:43 PM

You could always take a play from the left-wing Union book of dirty tricks. All of you (ccw holders) go in and offer them the opportunity to change it back before you all find other jobs. Bosses faced with the loss of that many people at once usually suddenly realize the value of their employees and become "flexible" on a number of issues.

Walter · July 8, 2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

You could always take a play from the left-wing Union book of dirty tricks. All of you (ccw holders) go in and offer them the opportunity to change it back before you all find other jobs. Bosses faced with the loss of that many people at once usually suddenly realize the value of their employees and become "flexible" on a number of issues.

In this economic situation? Where I work, a year ago, we had 200 employees.
After the series of layoffs, we have about 50. I would guess that maybe 5 or 7
of those "carry".
I don't think that would put much of a scare into management if "we"
threatened to quit. Like it or not, for now, "Don't ask, Don't tell" seems
like the best way to go.

Walter

srt 10 jimbo · July 8, 2009, 11:17 PM

Do they actually come out and search your car? man I'm glad I'm self employed.

July 8, 2009, 03:07 PM	#1
Uncle Malice Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2009 Location: Phoenix Posts: 4,580	Ha! My employer just modified company policy to disallow firearms on the premises... I live in Phoenix, and as everyone knows, Arizona is a VERY gun-friendly state. I guess my employer doesn't feel quite so liberal. Which makes sense, I suppose. The owner is originally from IL... but so am I!! Anyways, I'm not really complaining so much, as I am just ranting. I know of about 6 other people who CCW daily... including work. I think the change was made because I invited my boss to come to the range with me and a coworker... he said he would, but seemed a bit hesitant so I didn't ask again. I figured I would let it be his choice. Just received an email about the company policy changing, effective as of September that no weapons shall be allowed on the company property. Apparently we scared the liberal Wisconsin-native... This is kind of irritating. Number one reason is that I am the first one in the building every morning at 5am to open up shop. It's still a dark parking lot and while I'm not particularly scared of anything happening, there's still a chance for danger. A distant second on the list is having to leave my firearm in my car during the days of 115-120F heat... Sucks!!! __________________ Handguns: 2x Glock 19.4 \| Glock 26.4 \| HK USP 9 \| HK P2000 \| HK VP9 SK \| HK P30 \| CZ Shadow 2 \| CZ P-10 C \| CZ P-07 \| CZP-01 \| S&W 360PD Rifles: DDM4 \| SGL 21 \| SAM7K \| Draco \| PSA PDW SBR \| ASA Side-Charger SBR \| CZ Scorpion K SBR \| Aero M4E1 9" 300blk SBR \| Angstadt Jack9 SBR \| Savage Mark II FV-SR Shotguns: Mossberg 590A1 20" SP \| Mossberg Shockwave

July 8, 2009, 03:26 PM	#2
Uncle Malice Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2009 Location: Phoenix Posts: 4,580	Update: After speaking with the boss(who forwarded me a copy of the revised policy), I asked if there was a reason why it was sent directly to me. He told me that I was the only one "that he knew of" who had a weapon on the premises. So clearly, my mistake was not that I had it; but rather that I offered to take him to the range and let him use mine, and educate him on the use of firearms and informing him of my carry permit. Not to mention that the Vice President of Sales has a CCW and carries daily... and he has been with the company for 14 years. So much for opening my mouth!! __________________ Handguns: 2x Glock 19.4 \| Glock 26.4 \| HK USP 9 \| HK P2000 \| HK VP9 SK \| HK P30 \| CZ Shadow 2 \| CZ P-10 C \| CZ P-07 \| CZP-01 \| S&W 360PD Rifles: DDM4 \| SGL 21 \| SAM7K \| Draco \| PSA PDW SBR \| ASA Side-Charger SBR \| CZ Scorpion K SBR \| Aero M4E1 9" 300blk SBR \| Angstadt Jack9 SBR \| Savage Mark II FV-SR Shotguns: Mossberg 590A1 20" SP \| Mossberg Shockwave

July 8, 2009, 03:27 PM	#3
Glock-19 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2007 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 186	Its concealed for a reason, no one will know you have it unless you need it. I'm guessing if you actually need it you won't be worrying about losing your job, because you will still have your life. __________________ "No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms." Thomas Jefferson NRA Endowment Life Member

July 8, 2009, 03:35 PM	#6
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	You could always play their game and whine about being discriminated against by their sending you the policy directly. It could be a form of harrassment to be singled out like that. When the insurance office I work at was writing up their employee handbooks they never noticed that I edited the section on weapons so that it would prohibit illegal weapons. Now though, we adopted the handbook from our parent office, which is based in Chicago, and they don't even have any weapon policy at all, I guess since handguns are banned in Chicago their lawyers figured it wasn't an issue. __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

July 8, 2009, 04:38 PM	#8
PhoenixConflagration Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Location: Jacksonville, Fl Posts: 517	Nice Spiff. I use the same argument at the mall. Their sign says "No firearms or other illegal weapons", and since my firearm is not illegal, I'm okay! As for work, I left my gun in my glove box for a few months, then said [sic]. I carry at work anyway. It's concealed. __________________ *There is nothing quite so dangerous as a pacifist, for they will readily sacrifice others* for their ideals.** Last edited by Shane Tuttle; July 9, 2009 at 09:18 PM. Reason: skirting the language filter

July 8, 2009, 03:32 PM	#4
CWPinSC Junior member Join Date: July 1, 2009 Posts: 863	Unless the policy is company-wide, for every employee, it's not legal. Your alternatives: 1. Carry and take a chance on getting caught, which will probably get you fired. 2. Don't carry and take a chance on something worse than getting fired happening. 3. Quit.

July 8, 2009, 03:34 PM	#5
liberty1 Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2009 Location: colorado Posts: 281	My company which employs thousands nationwide has policy that does not allow even so much as a knife in your car while you are on the property.

July 8, 2009, 04:33 PM	#7
Mike Pearce Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Utah Posts: 31	Earlier this year, Utah passed a law that allows guns in any parked car. The employer cannot prohibit leaving your gun in your car when you work.

July 8, 2009, 04:39 PM	#9
PhoenixConflagration Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Location: Jacksonville, Fl Posts: 517	A lot of states have the same law that Mike above mentioned. Check yours. __________________ *There is nothing quite so dangerous as a pacifist, for they will readily sacrifice others* for their ideals.**

July 8, 2009, 04:39 PM	#10
greyson97 Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,284	Parking lot counts towards company policy, so you cant leave your gun in your car. The great state of texas passed a law allowing employees to have guns in their car despite company policy not allowing guns on company property.

July 8, 2009, 04:42 PM	#12
Doc Intrepid Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2009 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,037	Sorry to hear about that, Uncle Malice. I guess the lesson we all learn is to keep quiet about having weapons on company property? Or the fact that we own weapons at all? Looks like CWPinSC pegged it... You have those three options..... Best with it, Doc

July 8, 2009, 04:45 PM	#13
Uncle Malice Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2009 Location: Phoenix Posts: 4,580	Haha... excellent for you, spaceman! Liberty1, Your car is not company property, even if it's parked on company property. They can't say jack about what is in your car. I'm not too concerned about it.. I talked with the boss to inform him that there are quit a few others who carry, but I won't name them. If it's that much of a concern, they need to make an announcement about it because a lot of people around here carry. __________________ Handguns: 2x Glock 19.4 \| Glock 26.4 \| HK USP 9 \| HK P2000 \| HK VP9 SK \| HK P30 \| CZ Shadow 2 \| CZ P-10 C \| CZ P-07 \| CZP-01 \| S&W 360PD Rifles: DDM4 \| SGL 21 \| SAM7K \| Draco \| PSA PDW SBR \| ASA Side-Charger SBR \| CZ Scorpion K SBR \| Aero M4E1 9" 300blk SBR \| Angstadt Jack9 SBR \| Savage Mark II FV-SR Shotguns: Mossberg 590A1 20" SP \| Mossberg Shockwave

July 8, 2009, 04:54 PM	#14
greyson97 Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,284	when i put my hands in my pockets, i am carrying concealed weapons. what are you gonna do about it boss?

July 8, 2009, 05:16 PM	#15
6x6pinz Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 152	I feel for you Uncle Malice. There are a lot of rules and changes coming. The most recent one here in Phoenix is directed at such employers. If the employer does not allow firearms to be kept in the car, they must provide separate parking for those who do carry them or a secure place for the firearms to be stored onsite. Fortunately one of my companies benefits are corporate range passes at a local indoor range. In fact last year 10 of us went through the ccw classes on the companies dime. We called it a team builder If you catch the boss in a good mood targets and ammo can be had on him. __________________ Friends don't let friends shoot Glocks

July 8, 2009, 08:06 PM	#16
Steve1911 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2009 Posts: 431	Go to the VP that also carries and see if you two can get together with the others that carry, and see if you can come up with a proposal that a reasonable employer would be ok with. It is the same principle as unionizing... only without the union part... I also would see if the VP and the guy that sent the email to you are closer... then see if he would go to the range with the VP. Or you could get a lawyer and have them send the company a letter... that sometimes works too.......

July 8, 2009, 09:09 PM	#18
B.N.Real Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 4,092	Liability insurance will normally not cover your company if you allow employees to carry loaded firearms on your premises and something bad happens.

July 8, 2009, 09:26 PM	#19
Farmland Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 869	There is no exclusion in the ISO General Liability Insurance forms that would exclude liability for a gun accident or in that fact an employee shooting at your place of employment. I doubt even if they tried a manuscripted exclusion endorsement it would not hold up in the courts either. In any event I have never heard a single case of an insurance company refusing liability arising out of the use or handling of a firearm at a place of employment. Your only fault was letting work know too much about your personal life. I love firearms but few if any people I work with now my passion for firearms. Personally I would let the matter drop and follow the new company rules. Or at least just not say anything and do what you want with the risk of being terminated.

July 8, 2009, 10:22 PM	#21
Playboypenguin Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 11,515	That sucks. My boss where I work is a grade-a, self absorbed, know-it-all jerk but at least I never have to worry about that happening.

July 8, 2009, 10:43 PM	#23
G-man 26 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2008 Location: southern, CA Posts: 212	You could always take a play from the left-wing Union book of dirty tricks. All of you (ccw holders) go in and offer them the opportunity to change it back before you all find other jobs. Bosses faced with the loss of that many people at once usually suddenly realize the value of their employees and become "flexible" on a number of issues. __________________ "When one man speaks to another man who doesn't understand him, and when the man who's speaking no longer understands, it's metaphysics." Voltaire

July 8, 2009, 11:17 PM	#25
srt 10 jimbo Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2008 Location: Fort Lauderdale Posts: 955	Do they actually come out and search your car? man I'm glad I'm self employed.