45-70 black powder loads

[Tex S]

I am interested in developing a black powder load for my H&R Buffalo Classic rifle. I want to use the 405gr bullet size just to keep things traditional. I have never worked up any black powder loads. Any tips or pointers for getting started? Any recommended powders or bullets?

I would really like to find a 405gr spire point/round nose, as opposed to the most often seen flat point.

[steveno]

first suggestion is to get a copy Mike Venturino's book about shooting buffalo rifles

[Clark]

My youngest brother showed up at my construction site out in the woods where I was building a super insulated solar home in 1982.

He was wearing a toga and had a Trapdoor Springfield with black powder 45/70 cartridges.

We shot them, and the recoil felt like a big push, and then there was the smoke and smell.

He wanted to clean his bore, and we used a detergent, like Simple Green, and cleaned out his bore. That took the oil finish right off the stock.

He got some of my SAE 30W motor oil, rubbed it on his stock, it looked like new, and he left.

[oldpapps]

Its a 45-70.... That's 45 caliber with 70 grains of black powder. Original bullets weights were 500 grain, then 405s.

I tried black powder and found it to be a great mess. The rifle was an original 1873 trapdoor, Model 1884 and I was very worried with the corrosive gunk produced by the black powder. I reserve the old charcoal stuff to muzzle loading reproductions.

I think following the advise above about referring to Venturion's book.

Enjoy,

OSOK

[jsflagstad]

I've wanted to try it as well but have been leery about introducing corrosion to my rifle. Some black powders out there (209??) claims to be non-corrosive, but I still haven't brought myself to do it.

Best of luck and post up what you find..

[Tex S]

How full does 70gr of black powder make a 45-70 case? Will it fit?

[mehavey]

First: Stay with the classic round-nose/flat point bullet design. Pointy bullets don't particularly help ballistics at design ranges/those velocities. Go w/ a soft alloy, 1:16 or 1:30 (BHN 6-8)

Second: Don't bother w/ gas-checked bullets. Stay with a plain base

Third: Use a BP-type soft lube (Click HERE)

Fourth: Use 2Fg Black (or 1½ Swiss)

Fifth:
Option A: Fill the case with powder (vibrated down) to bottom of seated bullet** ("OK")
Option B: Same as above, add a card wad punched out of a milk carton (Better)
Option C: Fill with powder/card wad to where it will compress ~¼". Then compress w/ a compression die before seating bullet (don't compress w/ bullet itself) (Probable Best)

Sixth: Clean up w/ soap and water. Don't use normal solvents -- just a bit of dishwashing soap in warm water. (Not rocket science here, just wash the bore out.) Leave bore oiled with BreakFree and/or the like and don't worry about it.




** This will be less than 70gr, (more like 60+gr)

If you've done all this, you now know why Black Powder Cartridge people are unique.

[oldpapps]

"How full does 70gr of black powder make a 45-70 case? Will it fit?"

Good point. The original brass casings were 'Ballon Head' type.

Ever think of 'pyrodex' and not use real black powder? As I remember, I used 2400 and 3031, but that was a long time ago.

Load with care,

OSOK

[Tex S]

I am wanting to develop this load for hunting purposes, at a max range of 100 yds.

If I was to use mehavey's option "B" (powder and a wad), should it produce acceptable accuracy at 100 yards? Enough to kill a deer?

What velocities should I expect?

[NoSecondBest]

I quit messing with black powder quite a while ago. Too much time cleaning up, and other than making a smoking mess I never quite got the point. I have no quarrel with those who do use it though. I suppose they enjoy it like I enjoy archery, handguns, etc. To each his own. I have a number of 45-70s and duplicate the original velocity and bullet weight with smokeless powders. One good powder for this purpose is 5744. I have yet to recover a bullet from a deer with this powder pushing a 405g bullet at around 1200fps, and I've shot quite a few in the last few years.

[mehavey]

With a 32" barrel, 65gr 2Fg, 405gr bullet, you can expect 1,280-1,300fps. It's a horse killer... so don't worry about deer.
Minute-of-tangerine/small orange accuracy using the H&R's Wilson sights should be considered the norm.

Push a saliva-dampened patch through the bore (and out the muzzle) after each round for top accuracy,
or just blow through it w/ 3-4 long breaths. Don't forget to use BP-type soft lube.

Again, cleanup is actually simpler than with smokeless. Scrub the bore w/ 3-4 soapy patches; dry patch it out;
then BreakFree for storage. No big deal.

[myfriendis410]

If you want the cloud of smoke and none of the mess associated with BP then load some up using Blackhorn 209. Then clean like you would with factory ammo. Accuracy of that load is going to be up to the individual gun/load.

[Tex S]

What is the reason behind using powder compression dies? Is this to fit more powder in the case, or is it for accuracy purposes? Who makes these dies?

[mehavey]

"Somewhat" compressed powder burns better/more efficiently/consistently. Specific compression is oft times the key to max accuracy.
My experience with a 45-70, 45-90 and 38-55 is that 'about' ¼ inch is a sweet spot for 2F and 1½ Swiss.

You use a compression die (or a calibrated/marked piece of wood dowling) in the press to save badly deforming
the bullet if you were to try crunching the powder down with that soft lead.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.a...RM=compression

Lee compression dies are sold as two part assemblies:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Catego...IE-45-COMPRESS
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Catego.../LEE-DIE-45-EX

This as well:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/423...tem-45-caliber

[m&p45acp10+1]

If you want a BP level load without the corrosive effect try IMR Trail Boss. Note it doesn't give off the huge smoke cloud though. Or try 11.0 to 13 grains of Red Dot.

[Clark]

I found the pic from 30 years ago.
The trap door Springfield shooting 45/70 black powder loads.
It made a big gentle push of recoil.
It made big smoke.
Cleaning the bore with detergent [Simple Green] and water took the finish off the wood.
The owner rubbed some motor oil on the stock, and considered it re finished.

The rifle now looks the same, but 30 years later, it's owner would need a bigger toga.