Reloading Misinformation

[BWM]

The burn rate chart will miss lead you! What you need to know is what PSI is with the different in the powders some will have a higher PSI. I have reload for years and I have loaded from a 32 S&W up to a 30.06. I reload for all the guns that I own or have owned at one time. I started out with a 243. I got a Lyman & LEE & Accurate & Sierra & Hodgdon Reloading books. The man I went to had me buy them before he would help me get started. I have thanks him more times than you would think. I have never blew up any thing by loading by my books. I bought some A 2200 when it first came on the market and it was hotter than it was said to be. Blew out some primers. I also loaded some that the powder dump that did not dump that stuck the bullet in the barrel. That is why we learn what to watch. I have went to a Pact powder dispenser for my long guns so I know that the powder is there.

[Thunderkiss]

BMW,

You loaded cartridges that you thought had powder in them but they didn't? I gotta hear this story. Every cartridge i've reloaded for I knew powder was in it whether it was single stage press or turret press, the powder charge was the most important step and I have been known to pull brass out of my press and check the powder to make sure I'm good on my lee turret press. What were you loading with Accurate 2200?

[Bart B.]

It's been my experience gleaning info from folks reloading belted cases that they overload them more than folks reloading rimless cases. Their reasoning's typically based on the premise that belted cases are stronger than rimless ones hence the "magnum" terminology used in their name.

They're rarely interested in learning the facts that belted cases came about modifying rimmed ones at the head head only as their slight shoulder angles didn't hold head clearance from firing pin impact; they got driven too far forward as well as enabling them to be used in box magazines and feed reliably whereas rimmed ones didn't.

[Thunderkiss]

Bart,

You would think that those folks loading belted cases would be even more careful than us non "magnum" folks.

[Thunderkiss]

I have come across several more gun experts in my day that would use the old black powder cartridge designation such as 45-70 would be a .45 caliber bullet with 70 grains of powder and use that knowledge and apply it to any caliber such as .22-250(.22 caliber bullet with 250 grains of powder), 25-06 and 30-06(25 and 30 caliber bullet with 106 grains of powder). When you try to explain the .22-250 to one fellow, I gave the info of .250/3000 savage cartridge necked down to .22 caliber, I was told I was an idiot and shouldn't be passing on bad info to people

[madmo44mag]

I knew a guy that subscribed to the belted case theory.
Cost him a nice rifle and part of a finger.
Most brass can be pushed past the stated charge weights but that does not mean you should.
I have and it cost me two S&W 29's and a barrel on one of my Ruger 44's
I haven't overloaded a cartridge in almost 20 years.
I finally figured out that if you want more energy or velocity start with the correct round.

[Thunderkiss]

Holy crap madmo,

I can see a 29 being a little less tolerant of hot loads but a Ruger is built like a tank I would have loved to be there and see that buddy.

[berettaprofessor]

They found that the students that bragged the most did the worse. They concluded that the bragging made up for short comings. The smart students didn't have too brag, they knew their stuff.

I've come to this thread late, but this statement by Bella on page one is now summarized by a series of psychology articles about the "Dunning-Kruger Effect", better known as the "unskilled and unaware" phenomenon. Essentially, the less you know about something, the less you can assess your own skills at it. Trained professionals know and recognize their mistakes and assess themselves less confidently than idiots who don't know that they don't know.

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
My thoughts on belted magnums:
1) The book loads published are the lowest
Increase powder to get to the next level.
2) The load that Larry Willis collet die will help the fired brass fit in all your other rifles.
Increase powder to get to the next level.
3) The load too hot to Larry's die to make the fired brass fit in all the rifles, but can get many firings in the same without the primer pocket getting loose.
Increase powder to get to the next level.
4) The threshold of long brass life. Above this load may result in loose primer pockets.
Increase powder to get to the next level.
5) The primer pocket gets so big in one firing that the primer falls out and there is Carbon on the case head.

1) If I plug the Hodgdon max load [59gr] into QL, I get 45 kpsi 2900 fps.
2) If I look for the SAAMI registered max average pressure for the 7mmRM it is 61,000 psi.
3) I have so much 7mmRM brass, I am not going to re use it. I hunt with this.
If I plug 7mmRM 70 gr H4350 140 gr BT 26" into QL I match my chrono reading 3400fps 75 kpsi.
4) If one calculates Von Mises stress for the belted magnum case head for C26000 brass (cartridge brass)Temper - H06 Tensile yield strength - 65,300 psi, one gets the case head plastic deformation threshold at 79,597 psi chamber pressure.
QL thinks it would take 71 gr for the pressure for Von Mises calculated yield, but I am not seeing it in the brass until 72 gr. I measure the threshold of extractor groove growth which is more sensitive and consistent than feeling primer insertion force. 71 gr was calculated. 72 gr was measured.
3&4)(combined)I back off 3% from the more real measured for my 70 gr hunting load for the past few years.
Why not 6% like Vernon Speer said in 1956?
I am not writing a load book, which is what he was doing with the 6%.
I am using powder with temperature stabilizing coatings that he was not.
---------------------------
I may have some advantage.
When I chamber my barrels for belted magnums, I did not use the 0.220" to 0.227" headspace numbers per SAAMI. I headspace at 0.215", because I have never found a piece of belted magnum brass greater than 0.215" to the end of the belt.

[44 AMP]

Time and experience are great, but I would trust the word of a kid loading for 4 years with a degree in ballistic science over a hillbilly loading a single caliber since the 60's, lol...

How about the word of an old hillbilly who's been loading for 40+ years currently over 30+ different rifle and pistol cartridges, and who has NO degree in anything?


One thing life has taught me, numerous times over many years is that,

A Degree (in anything) ONLY means that the person who has it didn't flunk out.

A degree implies a certain level of competence, but it does not guarantee it. Nor does a lack of a degree invalidate real world experience.

I've worked with a number of people over the years, having degrees ranging from advanced basketweaving (which is actually tougher than it looks) to Phd's in Nuclear Engineering. Some have been absolutely brilliant individuals. Most have been competent, or better. A few have been unable to pour p..liquid out of a boot, following instructions printed on the heel!

Yet they have a piece of paper saying they have a degree....

Modern teaching methods, the internet, etc., all wonderful things. One can become an expert in nearly anything in a fraction of the time it used to take.
But, the fact that one can, doesn't mean one is. That gets shown by whether or not one can apply the knowledge, and do it correctly, in the real world.

One thing I have noticed about a lot of the people asking questions on the forums today is a strong penchant to take published data as absolutes, and applicable to every situation.

When it comes to reloading, this is not true. Published data shows what the testers got with what they tested. Their gun, their brass, etc. Published data is a very sound guideline, and the best available, but it is not a graven in stone immutable law of nature. Your gun and component combination may work exactly like what the book/internet says (most do), but it may not. Your specific combination of factors may hit max safe pressures before they did with what they tested. OR it may not, and you may find you can go beyond their maximums (to a point...) without serious risk.

One needs the wisdom to be able to recognize when, and if your situation differs from published data. Its also helpful to have the wisdom to know when you don't want, or need to go beyond published data (assuming you safely can).

Computer programs that calculate things are wonderful guidelines, too. But unless your real world material is what is in their models, your results can be different from theirs, and when you are looking at the upper end of the range, I would advise not taking things on faith alone.

In other words, don't jump into the deep end of the pool only because the computer knows how to swim.

As to the guy gassing about his loading practices and abilities, if I think he's full of crap, I say so. Particularly when there are young impressionable minds around.

[madmo44mag]

Thunderkiss - Holy crap madmo,

I can see a 29 being a little less tolerant of hot loads but a Ruger is built like a tank I would have loved to be there and see that buddy.

Holy Crap was right.
The 1st time I chalked it up to maybe a weak frame but the second time was "Dam these are way too hot"
I backed the load down a grain.
I will not post the load data as it is un-safe in any gun IMO but back then I could leap a tall building is a single bound and defy death with the way of my hand.
If it were not for the fact I wore padded shooting gloves I would have had some pretty nasty cuts to my hands. I basically got dam lucky I didn't blow a hand off or do worse.
At that point I figured I had reached the max limits of the 44 with a 320 gr bullet.

[boltomatic]

I've seen people ask around on forums and its scary how many people say something along the lines of "just work it up slowly and let us know how it works".

I think the problem is that most re loaders will never experience any problems or know anyone who does so they get jaded and underestimate the danger of what they are doing. Most people stay within published data which is why reloading accidents are rare, but you better believe accidents would be anything but rare if more people started experimenting.

There really is no reason for doing anything outside published load data. If you need a stronger round, buy a bigger gun. If you can't find the right powder, buy loaded ammo until the powder you need is available.

People need to ask themselves if its work losing life or limb for a couple hundred extra FPS or to save some money over loaded ammo when they can't find the powder they need. If you can't reload with published data, then don't reload. Buy factory ammo or shoot less until components become available. There is simply no reason for going outside load data that justifies the risk UNLESS you are an expert with professional equipment to measure pressures and velocity, and people online should not be encouraging others to experiment or try their "tested" loads.

[olddav]

I remember when Ultra Light aircraft was popular, many a new pilot thought of them selves as test pilots, resulting in a steady stream of deaths. While deaths may be rare in reloading, injury and/or destruction of firearms happen all to often when risk are taken or mistakes are made. I don't like pain and I value all firearms I own so for me I will not load outside of published data.

Know what you are risking if you choose to load out side of published load data, it's not for everyone and I'm not ashamed to admit that's its not for me. I'm kind of like "boltomatic", if you need more thump/range buy a gun chambered in a round capable of more thump/range.

Unlike gravity, Risk assessment is not the law but it is a darn good regulator.

[Clark]

My best friend died, after he put a Subaru engine in his ultra light and flew to an MT fly in. On the way back he iced up, put down on the highway, crashed and burned. I have had friends die with hang gliders, motorcycles, mountain climbing, and car racing. All that stuff scares me. Gun experiments scared me at first, and I used a trigger string in ~2001. Curiously, my father, the great gun designer, used a trigger string in the late 1940s. Now I can tell in a second if a gun can be blown up and if so which way the pieces will fly. I hold the gun so the pieces don't hit me. I blew up a lot of guns finding out what I know. I have never been hurt by guns. Now all I seem to do is destroy brass.

[Bella]

That math experiment I mentioned seems to be more valid all the time.

[Clark]

Bella,
Do you have a copy of that test?

[44 AMP]

I need to add that my comments about the book data being guidelines, applies when there IS book data. Things like finding out your gun is showing pressure signs at 32gr BLAMO powder when the book says max is 34, or you getting no pressure signs at 36gr when the books says max is 34, or the books says COAL should be 1.234 and I need 1.204 to fit.. that kind of thing.

If you are looking to load components where there is NO "book data" at all, well then, buddy, you are off the map, and there be monsters here!!! ARRRRR!

Now, bear in mind I don't mean no data you can find, I mean no data. There is a difference!!!

Finding (some) data for a niche wildcat or long obsolete cartridge can be a challenge but it is out there. That's one situation.

The other is not finding any data for a specific combination, when tons of other data is out there. Sometimes the reason that there is no data for what you are looking for is simply that it WAS tested, and rejected as not suitable.

Somewhere out there some jughead is bemoaning the fact that he can't find a load with IMR 7828 for his .32ACP! And another one wondering why he can't find an elephant load for his .416 using the keg of Win 231 he got....

If you can't find any data for the caliber, powder type and bullet weight you have, think about that for a minute. There might be a reason other than "nobody's done it yet"....

[madmo44mag]

44AMP post was very well stated.

Just MHO is some folks just don’t want to take a risk regardless of how small it may be and I can respect that. (Were are talking reloading here)

There will always be someone out there willing to take the risk and push the envelope.
I was once one of these people and you have the guy / gal that is developing the new wildcat round in their garage or basement.

[longspurr]

I've learned a way to deal with “the boasters” is to challenge them. Hey that sounds great. Show me how you do that – this Saturday or Sunday? Too busy on weekends? How about after work tomorrow?

Anyone listening will get the point that the guy is hot air and really cannot deliver.

I do reload “off the book” when forced to. Example: using Green dot powder for pistol loads because that was all I could find at the time. Green dot does not show up much for 9mm, 40 cal and lead bullets. But knowing that Green Dot is a slow version of Red dot, I used Red dot data and proceeded carefully.

For Pistol calibers there is lots of “book” data using jacketed bullets. Jacketed bullets from major manufactures are well standardized. For lead bullets not so much. Lead bullets can vary considerably; hardness, lube, sized to diameter, etc. Those of us loading bullets from VARIOUS commercial casters are on our own to get it right.

Getting loads to go Bang and be good enough for plinking and casual competition is not tough. Even with mixed brass. For these loads you just play in the shallow end of the pool and try not to push any ballistic envelopes.

[44 AMP]

People pushing the envelope (with what's available to them at the time) is how we got the .44 Magnum and the .454 Casull, among other things.

If Elmer had been able to get his hands on a Ruger New Model Blackhawk in .45 Colt back in the day, the .44 Magnum might never have existed!

One can DEVELOPE loads when you can't find exact data, and done carefully the risk is small, but its always there. Its always a matter of how all the different factors come together in your gun.

The same load can behave quite differently in different guns. For one example, I've got a hot load 200gr .45acp that shows no signs at all in a Sig P220, but craters primers in a 1911A1. Every gun is different, even though most behave very similarly, some don't.

[Brutus]

Substituting powders is commonplace today with all the powder shortages, you use what you can get.
Thunderkiss your advise was spot on but you forgot to add the caution of starting on the low end of recommendations until you get a feel for the powder and how it shoots in your gun.