Parking lot incident - Page 2

NWPilgrim · August 6, 2009, 02:57 PM

While it is easy to Monday morning quarterback and say "should have moved on", there is the other side. Should we be tucking tail every time someone blows up at us? Sure, as CCW we should avoid situations and be more prudent.

But as our society becomes less civil, more rude, and more violent, I think at SOME times we need to say, "No, I should not have to change my plans just because you want to accost me." The OP was doing nothing rude or illegal. He did not respond with anger or insults. He is handicap for goodness sake, that is why the parking spaces are where they are.

Any jerk that accosts a handicap person for waiting for a handicap spot deserves being put his place. I think this is one instance that standing your ground is appropriate.

Ultimately the OP was the man on the spot and his actions turned out well for everyone. Good experience to feed our own consideration of CCW.

Wildalaska · August 6, 2009, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Should we be tucking tail every time someone blows up at us?

yes. especially as an armed citizen.

Quote:

Any jerk that accosts a handicap person for waiting for a handicap spot deserves being put his place.

Yeah, thats what gun owners need to do, put folks in their place

Dude, what do you do some jerk off walks up to you and SPITS a loogie in your face and challenges you while you are wearing a gun?

Me...I run and call 911.

Carrying a gun doesn't make you Ms manners or the Politeness Police.

WildsometimesyouguysscaremeAlaska TM

NWPilgrim · August 6, 2009, 03:25 PM

I knew someone would jump in an accuse me of being a shoot first rabid gun owner. Thanks, Wild!

Watch out for gun owners they are soooo irresponsible. Only interwebs experts should be allowed to carry guns. I guess all those notches I hacked into my pistol grip aren't cool, huh?

Quentin2 · August 6, 2009, 03:27 PM

Very bad situation but it sounds like a gun shouldn't have been displayed. But we weren't there. I'm glad it turned out ok and we all should learn from this event. A gun is to be displayed when you fear for your life but then a handicapped person will interpret things differently than a guy with a black belt.

P95loser · August 6, 2009, 03:40 PM

Could you have just explained you were waiting for the parking space and you have some physical limitation that requires you to park up close?

I would think that approach through a cracked window with my gun in hand under my thigh might have reduced the escalation of force used and have had a much better outcome.

But then again I wasn't there so this might not have been an option.

noelf2 · August 6, 2009, 03:42 PM

Someone hits my car and threatens me with bodily harm? I'm drawing down on him, finger on the trigger, before he can smash my window and start punching / choking. That's the safest bet in that situation. Doing otherwise could get you hurt or killed.

I'll bet that the angry idiot is still thinking about the situation too! And he's probably counting his lucky stars.

bababooey32 · August 6, 2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:

The OP was doing nothing rude or illegal.

One might argue that brandishing a weapon and pointing it at someone with no intent to use it is "rude" and perhaps "illegal". After all, at that point, only heated words were exchanged. Slapping a car window is hardly justification for deadly force. Here in TX, the only justification for pointing your weapon at someone is "fear of imminent death or grave bodily harm" (Same as justification for pulling the trigger). Based on the OP's description, that threshold was not met (I know he is in FL - please adjust law as necessary).

Pilgrim, I think WA is suggesting that pulling your gun and pointing it at someone should be reserved for last resort scenarios. A guy yelling at you is not a last resort scenario, as much as you may want to "correct" jerks in the world, being a gun owner/CCW means being held to a bit higher standard. If you want to correct people, do it without a gun.

KLRANGL · August 6, 2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Someone hits my car and threatens me with bodily harm? I'm drawing down on him, finger on the trigger, before he can smash my window and start punching / choking. That's the safest bet in that situation. Doing otherwise could get you hurt or killed.

Thank you noelf... someone with sense finally...

Quote:

Pilgrim, I think WA is suggesting that pulling your gun and pointing it at someone should be reserved for last resort scenarios. A guy yelling at you is not a last resort scenario

A guy yelling at you, no... A guy yelling that he is going to kick your *** and is in a position to do so, most definitely...

I'm all for running away and calling 911, and I'm all about avoiding or escalating a situation, but it seems like some people here are waiting for a memo on letterhead paper saying "I'm going to kill you! draw your weapon!" A person with no where to flee and someone blatantly threatening them with bodily harm needs to be drawn down on.

It kind of amazes me I'm on this side of the argument because I'm usually the flee not flight person...

spacemanspiff · August 6, 2009, 03:56 PM

We can go back and forth over this.
What if the parking-lot-rager had smashed the window?
What if the old lady was purposely in on it, so they could mug the innocent driver caught between them?
What if
What if
What if

WA, the shop sells those handheld instruments that can be used to smash a window, correct? Its quite possible for a roadrager to hold one of those and have it not noticed by anyone, until he gives the window one good hard hit and *smash* the window is gone.

What charges could the assailant have brought against you, if FL is a 'stand your ground' state? Brandishing?

This type of incident would be ideal for the use of pepper spray. Or a taser.

KLRANGL · August 6, 2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

This type of incident would be ideal for the use of pepper spray. Or a taser.

Both would require rolling down your window, which we can all agree is a bad idea correct?

bababooey32 · August 6, 2009, 04:00 PM

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A guy yelling that he is going to kick your *** and is in a position to do

I would submit that being on the other side of a car door is not in a position to do so. Breaking a car window with one's fist is unlikely at best. Were he brandishing a tire iron inhis off-hand...OK. Were he kicking your car door/window in a blatant attempt to enter...OK. But Yelling "I'm going to kick your @$$" is not justification for use of deadly force, IMHO. The fact that having a gun pointed at him didn't make him immediately back down and that the OP did not then shoot the assailant tells me that even OP was not truly in "reasonable fear of life or limb".

Quote:

It kind of amazes me I'm on this side of the argument because I'm usually the flee not flight person...

I'm usually on the other! Funny how the same scenario is viewed so many different ways by seemingly like-minded folks!

Wildalaska · August 6, 2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Its quite possible for a roadrager to hold one of those and have it not noticed by anyone, until he gives the window one good hard hit and *smash* the window is gone.

And then you are justified in pulling your gun out and probably even popping the guy.

Quote:

Watch out for gun owners they are soooo irresponsible.

Based on some of the posts on the web, sadly, thats true

Quote:

A person with no where to flee and someone blatantly threatening them with bodily harm needs to be drawn down on.

Verbal threats? Posturing? Against a person behind a car door....

WildithoughtweweresupposedtolearnfromthesescenariosnotglorifythegunasequalizerAlaska ™

KLRANGL · August 6, 2009, 04:09 PM

Quote:

WildithoughtweweresupposedtolearnfromthesescenariosnotglorifythegunasequalizerAlaska

I see it more as a what constitutes a viable threat to ones life...

Quote:

Verbal threats? Posturing? Against a person behind a car door....

The car door definitly gives you something to pause and think about. I've had many people yell and threaten from inside their car. Whatever, you ignore them. Never had someone come up to my door while doing the same. To me that is a legitimate threat

Brian Pfleuger · August 6, 2009, 04:22 PM

If the trigger had been pulled would it have been justified?

Remember the rules of firearms safety?

Never point a gun at something you are not willing to DESTROY.

Was the OP willing to DESTROY that man? Not in the endless "what-if" scenarios, but right at that moment, was the OP willing to DESTROY that man? Would any of the rest of the contributors to this thread be willing to DESTROY that man at that moment?

If not, you don't point your gun at him. Period.

Wildalaska · August 6, 2009, 04:25 PM

Quote:

To me that is a legitimate threat

SO I come up to your door while you are stuck in traffic, whack your window with my fist and tell you you are a nogood *&^*&^*&^(*^%.

You can then, without more, shoot me?

WildifnotthenshouldyoubepullingagunAlaska ™

oneounceload · August 6, 2009, 04:36 PM

Did the schmuck ever say why he didn't just go around you, OP? I've been behind folks doing that, I just go around and find myself a spot

KLRANGL · August 6, 2009, 04:36 PM

Quote:

SO I come up to your door while you are stuck in traffic, whack your window with my fist and tell you you are a nogood *&^*&^*&^(*^%.

You can then, without more, shoot me?

Well you would have to replace "nogood...." with "im going to kill you" (intent). And I would have to consider your ability to get into my car and do me harm. Opportunity is certainly there (im stuck in traffic). If those three conditions were met, then yes I would shoot you unless you backed off when I drew down. I read those three conditions in the OP, but if you did not I can see why you would choose not to get the firearm involved. The written word being what it is, it is possible we are all reading the same story differently... But I still stand by what I said. I beleive a firearm was justified in this situation. And like I mentioned earlier, apparently the cops did too...

cracked91 · August 6, 2009, 04:46 PM

First I am going to say I agree with what you did, pulling gun and all. I find this site to have a very restricting view on gun holders. Say you didn't draw on him, he decided to use a knife, etc, to smash your window, then end situation you are probably going to have to shoot him.

Brian Pfleuger · August 6, 2009, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Say you didn't draw on him, he decided to use a knife, etc, to smash your window, then end situation you are probably going to have to shoot him.

Which means you draw and shoot.... or even draw when the OP did and keep the gun out of sight until needed.

NEVER point a gun at ANYTHING you are not willing to DESTROY.

Wildalaska · August 6, 2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Say you didn't draw on him, he decided to use a knife, etc, to smash your window, then end situation you are probably going to have to shoot him.

And that is justified

Quote:

I find this site to have a very restricting view on gun holders.

probably 'cuz it's mission is to promote responsible gun onwership

WildraaaaaaaamboprawnsAlaska ™

C Philip · August 6, 2009, 05:00 PM

Glad you got out of the situation OK, but personally my motto is "don't draw it unless you're going to shoot it." If you draw your pistol it should only be in response to a threat of immediate harm or death to yourself or others, and that draw should be immediately followed by shots. An unarmed man banging on your window is certainly frightening and disturbing, but not life threatening at that instant. If it was life threatening, I would argue that your first action should be to attempt to ram through the traffic block to get away. A damaged car is less of an issue than shooting someone, because stand-your-ground laws aside, shooting someone will incur a lot more legal expenses than replacing your car. You could have been charged with brandishing.

Edit: I wanted to add a suggestion. Whenever you are driving, leave at least one car length between you and the car/object in front of you. If you are stopped at a traffic light, stop sign, or in a parking lot, having space in front of you allows you to have turning room to escape should someone run up to your car. Also remember to always lock your doors when you get into your car if they don't lock automatically.

Dragon55 · August 6, 2009, 05:04 PM

Micro.... man just chill. You can't go whipping it out just cuz' some idiot is screaming at you.

Yes, maybe secure it as Peetza suggested but don't point it. I understand your anxiety as it sounds like you were blocked in but as WA sez this site desperately tries to promote responsible use.

Secure firearm, dial 911, leave as soon as unblocked. Now..... if the glass your looking out gets broke.... all bets are off.

Dr. Strangelove · August 6, 2009, 05:19 PM

"No duty to retreat" doesn't mean "No duty to use common sense", folks. I find it hard to believe someone beating on your car with their fists in a Wal-mart parking lot makes anyone fear for their life or great bodily harm. Just because someone makes a poor decision doesn't mean you need to follow it up with a worse decision.

If being a jackass was sufficient grounds to shoot someone, there would be a lot less people in the world right now. The 2nd guy was in the wrong, clearly, but the OP was in the wrong to have pointed a firearm at him. He's lucky he didn't get charged with assault himself.

By the way, if some you guys were here in Athens for a football game at the University of Georgia, I shudder to think of the numbers of deaths that would occur in the various parking lots...

orionengnr · August 6, 2009, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Pretty amazing the guy did not back off when looking down the barrel of a gun.

Well, it was only a Kel-Tec

Quote:

NEVER point a gun at ANYTHING you are not willing to DESTROY.

Willing to destroy? Yes.
Intending to destroy? In this instance, not quite yet, but maybe very soon.
Depends on what the meaning of "is" is...

Wildalaska · August 6, 2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Depends on what the meaning of "is" is...

Why do I think of Bill Clinton

WildworkslavesworkoimsorryithoughtiwasdealingwiththestaffAlaska ™

August 6, 2009, 02:57 PM	#26
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	While it is easy to Monday morning quarterback and say "should have moved on", there is the other side. Should we be tucking tail every time someone blows up at us? Sure, as CCW we should avoid situations and be more prudent. But as our society becomes less civil, more rude, and more violent, I think at SOME times we need to say, "No, I should not have to change my plans just because you want to accost me." The OP was doing nothing rude or illegal. He did not respond with anger or insults. He is handicap for goodness sake, that is why the parking spaces are where they are. Any jerk that accosts a handicap person for waiting for a handicap spot deserves being put his place. I think this is one instance that standing your ground is appropriate. Ultimately the OP was the man on the spot and his actions turned out well for everyone. Good experience to feed our own consideration of CCW. __________________ "The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition." - James Madison

August 6, 2009, 03:25 PM	#28
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	I knew someone would jump in an accuse me of being a shoot first rabid gun owner. Thanks, Wild! Watch out for gun owners they are soooo irresponsible. Only interwebs experts should be allowed to carry guns. I guess all those notches I hacked into my pistol grip aren't cool, huh? __________________ "The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition." - James Madison

August 6, 2009, 03:42 PM	#31
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	Someone hits my car and threatens me with bodily harm? I'm drawing down on him, finger on the trigger, before he can smash my window and start punching / choking. That's the safest bet in that situation. Doing otherwise could get you hurt or killed. I'll bet that the angry idiot is still thinking about the situation too! And he's probably counting his lucky stars. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

August 6, 2009, 03:56 PM	#34
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	We can go back and forth over this. What if the parking-lot-rager had smashed the window? What if the old lady was purposely in on it, so they could mug the innocent driver caught between them? What if What if What if WA, the shop sells those handheld instruments that can be used to smash a window, correct? Its quite possible for a roadrager to hold one of those and have it not noticed by anyone, until he gives the window one good hard hit and smash the window is gone. What charges could the assailant have brought against you, if FL is a 'stand your ground' state? Brandishing? This type of incident would be ideal for the use of pepper spray. Or a taser. __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

August 6, 2009, 04:22 PM	#39
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	If the trigger had been pulled would it have been justified? Remember the rules of firearms safety? Never point a gun at something you are not willing to DESTROY. Was the OP willing to DESTROY that man? Not in the endless "what-if" scenarios, but right at that moment, was the OP willing to DESTROY that man? Would any of the rest of the contributors to this thread be willing to DESTROY that man at that moment? If not, you don't point your gun at him. Period. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; August 6, 2009 at 04:28 PM.

August 6, 2009, 03:27 PM	#29
Quentin2 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2009 Location: NorthWest USA Posts: 1,996	Very bad situation but it sounds like a gun shouldn't have been displayed. But we weren't there. I'm glad it turned out ok and we all should learn from this event. A gun is to be displayed when you fear for your life but then a handicapped person will interpret things differently than a guy with a black belt.

August 6, 2009, 03:40 PM	#30
P95loser Member Join Date: September 2, 2005 Posts: 20	Could you have just explained you were waiting for the parking space and you have some physical limitation that requires you to park up close? I would think that approach through a cracked window with my gun in hand under my thigh might have reduced the escalation of force used and have had a much better outcome. But then again I wasn't there so this might not have been an option.

August 6, 2009, 04:36 PM	#41
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Did the schmuck ever say why he didn't just go around you, OP? I've been behind folks doing that, I just go around and find myself a spot

August 6, 2009, 04:46 PM	#43
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	First I am going to say I agree with what you did, pulling gun and all. I find this site to have a very restricting view on gun holders. Say you didn't draw on him, he decided to use a knife, etc, to smash your window, then end situation you are probably going to have to shoot him.

August 6, 2009, 05:00 PM	#46
C Philip Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: USA Posts: 784	Glad you got out of the situation OK, but personally my motto is "don't draw it unless you're going to shoot it." If you draw your pistol it should only be in response to a threat of immediate harm or death to yourself or others, and that draw should be immediately followed by shots. An unarmed man banging on your window is certainly frightening and disturbing, but not life threatening at that instant. If it was life threatening, I would argue that your first action should be to attempt to ram through the traffic block to get away. A damaged car is less of an issue than shooting someone, because stand-your-ground laws aside, shooting someone will incur a lot more legal expenses than replacing your car. You could have been charged with brandishing. Edit: I wanted to add a suggestion. Whenever you are driving, leave at least one car length between you and the car/object in front of you. If you are stopped at a traffic light, stop sign, or in a parking lot, having space in front of you allows you to have turning room to escape should someone run up to your car. Also remember to always lock your doors when you get into your car if they don't lock automatically. Last edited by C Philip; August 6, 2009 at 05:14 PM.

August 6, 2009, 05:04 PM	#47
Dragon55 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2009 Location: East Tennessee Posts: 811	Micro.... man just chill. You can't go whipping it out just cuz' some idiot is screaming at you. Yes, maybe secure it as Peetza suggested but don't point it. I understand your anxiety as it sounds like you were blocked in but as WA sez this site desperately tries to promote responsible use. Secure firearm, dial 911, leave as soon as unblocked. Now..... if the glass your looking out gets broke.... all bets are off. __________________ sailing ... A way to spend lots of money and go real S L O W

August 6, 2009, 05:19 PM	#48
Dr. Strangelove Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2008 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 1,436	"No duty to retreat" doesn't mean "No duty to use common sense", folks. I find it hard to believe someone beating on your car with their fists in a Wal-mart parking lot makes anyone fear for their life or great bodily harm. Just because someone makes a poor decision doesn't mean you need to follow it up with a worse decision. If being a jackass was sufficient grounds to shoot someone, there would be a lot less people in the world right now. The 2nd guy was in the wrong, clearly, but the OP was in the wrong to have pointed a firearm at him. He's lucky he didn't get charged with assault himself. By the way, if some you guys were here in Athens for a football game at the University of Georgia, I shudder to think of the numbers of deaths that would occur in the various parking lots...