45 70 modern single shot loads

[tjsooley]

I recently picked up some 535 grain hardcast bullets. I'm thinking of using h4895 powder starting around 30 grains and I just want to get people's opinion I have a Sharps That Can handle up to 30000 psi. I don't care about high velocity. I usually load light to save cost. What do y'all think?

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[Charlie98]

Looks pretty good to me, but I would probably verify that with some published data. It isn't a bad powder choice, H4895 is one of the few powders that has the thumbs up from the manufacturer for reduced loads. It also depends on what you plan to do with that load... plinking? Long distance? Hunting?

[Hammerhead]

Welcome to the forum.
That's one heavy bullet!
Do you have any data for that bullet/powder combo?
My Lyman #49 lists a cast 535 for the Ruger single shots, but nothing for H4895. Seems like it would be a good choice.

[44 AMP]

recently picked up some 535 grain hardcast bullets. I'm thinking of using h4895 powder starting around 30 grains and I just want to get people's opinion

Not familiar with H4895, but am with IMR 4895, and if similar, 4895 is a little too slow for best performance from the .45-70. Though its a big case, tis straight and works better with rifle powder in the fast to medium burn rates. IMR 3031 is good.

Now, 30gr of 4895 under a 500+ bullet? I'm sure it would push the bullet out the end of the barrel, but no idea what speed, possibly not even 1,000fps.

42gr of IMR 4895 moves a 500gr in the 1300fps range. You're talking about more than a third LESS powder pushing a 525gr slug? Not sure what velocity you'll get, only that I expect it to be considerably less than 1300fps.

I think there are better powders for pushing heavy .45-70 cast bullets at moderate or higher speeds.

Just curious, what "modern" single shot are you using?

[tjsooley]

Thanks. For the info. It's a sharps but made by pedersoli and the manual says smokeless modern non +p loads are safe for the action. I would be fine about 1300 fps. Will need to do more research.

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[SHR970]

For the published lead 485 gr. "trapdoor" loads you shaved 25% off of the starting loads. You are so far down in the weeds that you will likely squib. Non +P loads are ~ 28K psi. Your proposed load is well below 19K psi.

[44 AMP]

It's a sharps but made by pedersoli and the manual says smokeless modern non +p loads are safe for the action. I would be fine about 1300 fps.

Ok, yes you should be fine in the 1300fps range. Now here's where it get a little complicated. "Modern" single shots are considered to be guns like the Ruger No.1 and No.3 (and I believe the Browning reproduction of the Winchester Hi wall the B-78).

Your Sharps, is modern made, using modern steel alloys by Pedersoli, but it is not a "modern" design, it is a reproduction of the 1870s design, and while stronger than the original guns, due to modern steels, it is NOT as strong as the real modern guns like the Rugers.

there are 3 levels to current .45-70 handloading. I,II, and III, though some people reverse the order of the numbers

level I =modern smokeless powder loads that essentially duplicate black powder pressure levels and velocities.

This is what Pedersoli is referring to when they say "modern non +P" loads. Standard factory ammo.

The second level is heavier, loads with higher pressures, intended for top performance from the 1886 Winchester and the (new) Marlin 1895 rifles. These rifles are substantially stronger than the Trapdoor Springfield, and I think are a bit stronger than your Sharps. Think of them as .45-70 +p.

Too hot for the Trapdoor, and possibly too hot for your Sharps.

The third level is for max loads in the Rugers and certain bolt actions. Pressures can be in the 50,000psi range, WAAYY too much for even the 1886 Winchester and DANGEROUS in the Trapdoor Springfield. Too much for your Sharps, and possibly dangerous. The Sharps action is stronger than the Trapdoor Springfield but not a LOT stronger.

For your gun, stick with loads that stay close to blackpowder pressures and speeds and you should have no problems.

you can't safely make "magnum" .45-70s in the rifle you have, don't try!

I have some loads in an old Lyman book for the 552gr cast slug, they used Unique, 2400, IMR 4227, IMR 4198,and IMR 3031. I suggest you check for loads using these powders. I'm sure there are others (Reloader series?) that are suitable as well.

[tjsooley]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Ok, yes you should be fine in the 1300fps range. Now here's where it get a little complicated. "Modern" single shots are considered to be guns like the Ruger No.1 and No.3 (and I believe the Browning reproduction of the Winchester Hi wall the B-78).



Your Sharps, is modern made, using modern steel alloys by Pedersoli, but it is not a "modern" design, it is a reproduction of the 1870s design, and while stronger than the original guns, due to modern steels, it is NOT as strong as the real modern guns like the Rugers.



there are 3 levels to current .45-70 handloading. I,II, and III, though some people reverse the order of the numbers



level I =modern smokeless powder loads that essentially duplicate black powder pressure levels and velocities.



This is what Pedersoli is referring to when they say "modern non +P" loads. Standard factory ammo.



The second level is heavier, loads with higher pressures, intended for top performance from the 1886 Winchester and the (new) Marlin 1895 rifles. These rifles are substantially stronger than the Trapdoor Springfield, and I think are a bit stronger than your Sharps. Think of them as .45-70 +p.



Too hot for the Trapdoor, and possibly too hot for your Sharps.



The third level is for max loads in the Rugers and certain bolt actions. Pressures can be in the 50,000psi range, WAAYY too much for even the 1886 Winchester and DANGEROUS in the Trapdoor Springfield. Too much for your Sharps, and possibly dangerous. The Sharps action is stronger than the Trapdoor Springfield but not a LOT stronger.



For your gun, stick with loads that stay close to blackpowder pressures and speeds and you should have no problems.



you can't safely make "magnum" .45-70s in the rifle you have, don't try!



I have some loads in an old Lyman book for the 552gr cast slug, they used Unique, 2400, IMR 4227, IMR 4198,and IMR 3031. I suggest you check for loads using these powders. I'm sure there are others (Reloader series?) that are suitable as well.

Thanks. Was never intending to make anything beyond level 1 will look into those loads

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[tjsooley]

after thinking all this over I think I'm going to have to revisit what I'm going to do with the 535 grand monster bullets I do have a lineman black powder cartridge reloading guide maybe I'll just make black powder ones out of them thank you all for all of your assistance on this I am new at this and trying to learn

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[tjsooley]

Will also stick with published validated load data for now it's blatantly obvious I'm way too much of a noob at reloading to start messing around without using published validated load data.

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[Road_Clam]

I have an 1874 Sharps and i only load the 535 gr bullets . I also really only load real black powder. There really is only one suitable smokeless powder which is AA5744 , that anyone has had decent accuracy with. Myself, never observed any good precision. When i load smokeless 405 gr FP cast bullet for my Trapdoor, i like using 4198.

[tjsooley]

Originally Posted by Road_Clam

I have an 1874 Sharps and i only load the 535 gr bullets . I also really only load real black powder. There really is only one suitable smokeless powder which is AA5744 , that anyone has had decent accuracy with. Myself, never observed any good precision. When i load smokeless 405 gr FP cast bullet for my Trapdoor, i like using 4198.

What's the load data on your 535 BP load if you don't mind me asking?

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[T. O'Heir]

Is a Sharps but made by Pedersoli considered to be a "Modern" single shot? Something yelling at me that it is not. Modern single shots are like Rugers.
However, Hodgdon shows both 4895 powders listed under Lever actions, but not a big bullet like that.
"...around 30 grains..." It waaaaaay below minimum for a 400 grain jacketed bullet, like by 20 plus grains below. It'd be dangerous. Give Hodgdon a call and ask 'em about proper data.
https://www.hodgdon.com/company/contact-us/

[tjsooley]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

Is a Sharps but made by Pedersoli considered to be a "Modern" single shot? Something yelling at me that it is not. Modern single shots are like Rugers.
However, Hodgdon shows both 4895 powders listed under Lever actions, but not a big bullet like that.
"...around 30 grains..." It waaaaaay below minimum for a 400 grain jacketed bullet, like by 20 plus grains below. It'd be dangerous. Give Hodgdon a call and ask 'em about proper data.
https://www.hodgdon.com/company/contact-us/

Yeah I'm beginning to see that I think I'm just going to play it safe and make black powder loads out of the 535 monsters. Don't plan on shooting them all the time and planning on sticking with my normal light loads that I usually make for my Guide Gun and my pedersoli sharps.


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[Charlie98]

Why didn't you say so? I've got a Pedersoli 1885 that I load for...

Your best powders are going to be IMR4198 and AA5744. I have used IMR4895 and IMR3031, but they are a bit too slow unless you want higher velocities. I have also used Unique (others use 2400, and TrailBoss, I believe) but I don't know how well that would work with that heavy a bullet; I've only loaded as heavy as 405grn.

If you are interested, I can post some of my velocity and load data.

EDIT: No, you do not have to surrender to the Black Powder moonies, you can launch those heavies with smokeless, too...

[Road_Clam]

So I too have a Pedersoli Sharp's. When I tested AA5744 and the BACO 535 Postell bullets I was at 24.7 gr of AA5744 and I was right around 1200 fps. When I load the true "holy black" my go-to load is the BACO 545 Creedmoor bullet, a .030" poly wad, and 65 gr of Swiss 1.5F powder and about 1233 fps. Consistently better accuracy than any smokeless load. Don't bother trying to load the Pedersoli Sharp's beyond 1275 fps, the general consensus is there is no accuracy gains to be had (at least with your typical "grease groove" type bullets). The master "paper patch" bullet shooters really crank up the velocity and see excellent accuracy, but I tried 80+ gr of BP and saw just "ok" accuracy, and my shoulder took a ROYAL beating in the process ! Here's some good smokeless load data :

http://reloadammo.com/4570load.htm

**keep in mind, don't use "modern", (also called lever) type data for the Sharp's. Stick the the "cowboy" data. Here's good info on what the Pedersoli's can handle for cup/ psi (and they are a tough design and can definitely handle higher pressures, but just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should".

https://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-resul...mits_09-04.htm

[tjsooley]

Originally Posted by Road_Clam

So I too have a Pedersoli Sharp's. When I tested AA5744 and the BACO 535 Postell bullets I was at 24.7 gr of AA5744 and I was right around 1200 fps. When I load the true "holy black" my go-to load is the BACO 545 Creedmoor bullet, a .030" poly wad, and 65 gr of Swiss 1.5F powder and about 1233 fps. Consistently better accuracy than any smokeless load. Don't bother trying to load the Pedersoli Sharp's beyond 1275 fps, the general consensus is there is no accuracy gains to be had (at least with your typical "grease groove" type bullets). The master "paper patch" bullet shooters really crank up the velocity and see excellent accuracy, but I tried 80+ gr of BP and saw just "ok" accuracy, and my shoulder took a ROYAL beating in the process ! Here's some good smokeless load data :

http://reloadammo.com/4570load.htm

**keep in mind, don't use "modern", (also called lever) type data for the Sharp's. Stick the the "cowboy" data. Here's good info on what the Pedersoli's can handle for cup/ psi (and they are a tough design and can definitely handle higher pressures, but just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should".

https://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-resul...mits_09-04.htm

Awesome thank you


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[T. O'Heir]

"..."modern", (also called lever)..." No, it isn't. There is lever action data and 'modern' rifle data. Ain't the same.
A 'modern' single shot like a Ruger No. 1 can be loaded to near .458 Win velocities. Don't think you can do that with any Sharps.
"...shoulder took a ROYAL beating..." 70 grains of BP with a cast 405 grain bullet out of a 7 pound TD Carbine does that too. No internet to tell me anything when I did that during the Great BP Cartridge Experiment. I still have stretch marks on my shoulder.

[tjsooley]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

"..."modern", (also called lever)..." No, it isn't. There is lever action data and 'modern' rifle data. Ain't the same.
A 'modern' single shot like a Ruger No. 1 can be loaded to near .458 Win velocities. Don't think you can do that with any Sharps.
"...shoulder took a ROYAL beating..." 70 grains of BP with a cast 405 grain bullet out of a 7 pound TD Carbine does that too. No internet to tell me anything when I did that during the Great BP Cartridge Experiment. I still have stretch marks on my shoulder.

Why would I care about 458 win velocities? All I do it target shoot?

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[bbqncigars]

I worked up loads using a 535gr Postell boolit in my 1874 Sharps repro, and it really likes 37gr of Varget with said boolit lubed and sized to .458. It did not like the same load with the boolit coated with either Hi-Tek or powder and sized to same diameter. Which works out easier as eliminating the extra coating process means one pass through the Star does it all.

[tjsooley]

Originally Posted by bbqncigars

I worked up loads using a 535gr Postell boolit in my 1874 Sharps repro, and it really likes 37gr of Varget with said boolit lubed and sized to .458. It did not like the same load with the boolit coated with either Hi-Tek or powder and sized to same diameter. Which works out easier as eliminating the extra coating process means one pass through the Star does it all.

Thanks

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[Barman54]

Originally Posted by Road_Clam

So I too have a Pedersoli Sharp's. When I tested AA5744 and the BACO 535 Postell bullets I was at 24.7 gr of AA5744 and I was right around 1200 fps. When I load the true "holy black" my go-to load is the BACO 545 Creedmoor bullet, a .030" poly wad, and 65 gr of Swiss 1.5F powder and about 1233 fps. Consistently better accuracy than any smokeless load. Don't bother trying to load the Pedersoli Sharp's beyond 1275 fps, the general consensus is there is no accuracy gains to be had (at least with your typical "grease groove" type bullets). The master "paper patch" bullet shooters really crank up the velocity and see excellent accuracy, but I tried 80+ gr of BP and saw just "ok" accuracy, and my shoulder took a ROYAL beating in the process ! Here's some good smokeless load data :

http://reloadammo.com/4570load.htm

**keep in mind, don't use "modern", (also called lever) type data for the Sharp's. Stick the the "cowboy" data. Here's good info on what the Pedersoli's can handle for cup/ psi (and they are a tough design and can definitely handle higher pressures, but just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should".

https://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-resul...mits_09-04.htm

First Post, Long Time reader.
HighPower Shooter for over 25 Years, and reloader longer than that.
I have a Pedretti Sharps, 45/70 trying to stabilize a 530 Postell using AA5744.
21.0 yields 1048, 23.0/1124, 23.5/1145, 24.0/1156 FPS.
Shooting at 100 yds I see a start of some keyholing, on some shots??

So you think bumping it a little might stabilize it??

Do not really want to get into BP, for now, I have good things about using it.

Had two Trapdoors (HR Replicas) to get the Pedretti, had good luck reloading for them, I learned a lot, about this Caliber.
Even loaded some for my Friends Marlin 45/70's, shoots cloverleafs out of them.

Just wanted to try a Heavier Boolit, than the 405 Hard Cast out of this Rifle.

Any suggestions would be helpful??

Barman54
Out

[ligonierbill]

I suggest some Alliant Black MZ. It can usually be found at a good price, it's easy to load, and you might be surprised at the velocity it delivers. The residue is not as slimy as holy black, but you should be cleaning your rifle at the end of the day regardless. What you avoid is a small powder charge rattling around in a big case.

I use it in a number of old cartridges. I'm short on chrono data, but a full case (65 gr by volume) sends a 450 out of my 50-70 at 1,200. In 44-40 it sends a 200 out of a SAA clone at 900. No reason to avoid it, unless you're worried about giving away your position.

[Unclenick]

Barman54,

Do you know your actual barrel twist (measured, not claimed; the actual value can be off a little) and can you measure the length of your bullet?

Chances are your velocity numbers are too close to the transonic range (where sound barrier effects tend to destabilize a bullet) for the bullet length-to-twist ratio, and you need either to go faster to increase the spin rate or slower to get out of the transonic range (say, 900-950 fps or less).

[Jasonzee]

If you want a light load try this.

11 or 13 gr. Of unique and a 405 cast lead bullet real soft almost like a 22lr.