The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 11, 2022, 10:50 AM   #1
coyotewsm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2014
Posts: 242
AR 9mm rifle?

What would be the effective range of a 9mm AR rifle. Also what would be the pros and cons of one?
coyotewsm is offline  
Old June 11, 2022, 11:06 AM   #2
imashooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 366
Begin here and work forward. https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=486920
imashooter is offline  
Old June 11, 2022, 05:54 PM   #3
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 14,970
Like any 9mm, you are looking at about 50 yds maximum effective range. If you use your brace as a shoulder stock, it could be effective out to 100 yds depending on your skill level.

Pros- semiauto 9mm pistol, high capacity, steadier than a purely hand-held pistol when using the brace. You may feel like you want more energy, but a 9mm will do the job nicely if you do yours.

Cons- unlike most 9mm pistols, AR pistols are generally not very concealable. It's easy to burn 100 rounds in a very short time.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Scorch is offline  
Old June 11, 2022, 11:54 PM   #4
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,247
AR 9mm rifle...aka Pistol caliber carbine, (not a pistol)

Effective range of any firearm is determined by two main factors.

First is the range at which you can hit the desired target.

Second is the range the bullet has sufficient energy to perform the desired task.

You need both to be effective.

Some good shots can hit targets at ranges where the bullet isn't able to do much more than punch through the paper or ring the gong.

Some cartridges carry an effective amount of energy farther than you can usually see...

I don't have charts for exactly what you're looking for (9mm) but I have some close enough for really rough comparison numbers.

I was able to find one load for a 115gr 9mm from a 16" barrel and it was a bit over 1400fps. based on that, at 250yds, the bullet would be in the high 800fps range with around 180ft/lbs of energy and drop from a 50yd zero would be about 6 FEET.

Just for comparison, the ME of a regular hi-speed .22LR is about 130ft/lbs, at the muzzle.

And while 6feet of drop isn't impossible to compensate for, with any kind of wind drift off target could also be several feet. SO, 250yds is farther than I would consider the effective range of a 9mm carbine. Half that maybe, but even 100yds is a stretch for the little 9mm Luger round.

That being said, I can, and have rung the 200yd rifle gong with 9mm pistols. (calm day) its not easy (particularly the aiming) but its not impossible, for me. Several friends of mine cannot do it, but I can so its possible you could learn to as well. However I don't consider that to be the effective range, either, just a distant range I can hit a large gong for "showin' off"...

For an effecive range of a 9mm Carbine, 75yds, maybe out to 100, if you're a good enough shot...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old June 12, 2022, 06:58 AM   #5
jetinteriorguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 2,518
From a steady rest I can usually put all my shots on a sheet of paper with a fair percentage hitting in a 6” target using my Just Right Carbine and loads I’ve developed specifically for it. I have a pretty good load in both a 124 grain bullet and a 147 grain bullet, these are copper plated bullets. They both chronograph at right around 1200fps. Personally I’d feel plenty comfortable using the 147 grain bullet on a deer out to fifty yds both accuracy and energy wise. But if I was serious about hunting with a PCC I’d work up hot loads using XTP’s instead of plated bullets, I’d think you could load the 147gr approaching .357 magnum energy levels.

Last edited by jetinteriorguy; June 13, 2022 at 06:18 AM.
jetinteriorguy is offline  
Old June 12, 2022, 07:19 AM   #6
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,992
Quote:
For an effecive range of a 9mm Carbine, 75yds
I've done lots of loads in a PCC and my ballistics results agree with this, though I haven't actually shot any game with it and I assume small/medium soft skin game is the target.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old June 12, 2022, 10:51 AM   #7
chadio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2011
Posts: 922
9mm AR rifle? Oh yes, I dream of them often... namely the Colt 6951, CMMG, Rock River Arms, etc.

Quite fond of this one in particular. Since I love to shoot with peep sights, that long hand guard / long sight radius is much attractive
Attached Images
File Type: png rra comp 9.png (349.0 KB, 41 views)
__________________
Ex - Navy, Persian Gulf Veteran. Loved shooting the M14, 1911, M60, M2
chadio is offline  
Old June 12, 2022, 01:57 PM   #8
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,247
Quote:
But if I was serious about hunting with a PPC I’d work up hot loads using XTP’s instead of plated bullets, I’d think you could load the 147gr approaching .357 magnum energy levels.
If I were serious about hunting with a Pistol Caliber Carbine, the caliber I'd choose would NOT be 9mm Luger. I would choose a .357 or .44 Magnum (and I have),,,

Plated bullets are not on my list of great things, and I would only use them for hunting small game where I was not interested in bullet expansion at all. Plinking, target shooting, ok. Hunting? not so much. I'm also not going to choose a bullet for hunting when the maker says don't exceed 1200fps....

9mm Luger, fired from a carbine with a 16-18" barrel (or longer) does get a velocity increase from the longer barrel. But not a lot, and not nearly as much as other, larger rounds can get. The 9mm case simply isn't big enough to hold enough powder (of the right type) to do it.

You can get a 9mm carbine to match the energy of some 357 loads from a pistol (like a 4" revolver). You cannot get a 9mm fired from a carbine to match the energy of a .357 fired from a carbine. Not even close.

An additional limiting factor can be the guns themselves. All the 9mm carbines I know personally, are blow back guns. I'm not sure about the AR 9mm, but I think it is, also. .357 carbines are locked breech guns. That makes a difference when working for maximum loads.

The advantage to a 9mm carbine over a handgun is mostly the fact that a rifle is easier to shoot accurately and that provides an increase in usable range, for most people.

The other advantage is, if you already have a 9mm pistol, it can shoot the same ammo. If there is another advantage, please, point it out, as I don't see it...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old June 12, 2022, 03:15 PM   #9
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,992
Quote:
9mm AR rifle? Oh yes, I dream of them often... namely the Colt 6951, CMMG, Rock River Arms, etc.
I've built several 9mm AR's (all blowbacks) and like your pictured one I far prefer the straight-up magazine style of Colt's to that of Glocks (even though I have a few Glock handguns). The only problem I've had with them is that they chew up ammo VERY fast, they are addictively fun.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_6982.jpg (127.0 KB, 284 views)
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old June 12, 2022, 04:24 PM   #10
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,247
If you think the AR 9mm goes through ammo fast, get a Calico (if you still can),,,the small magazine is 50, the standard mag is 100rds. ejects out the bottom. Really cool guns.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old June 12, 2022, 05:02 PM   #11
Shadow9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyotewsm View Post
What would be the effective range of a 9mm AR rifle. Also what would be the pros and cons of one?
Rather open ended question....

Iraqveteran8888 did some testing with ball ammo at , using the old pine board method. According to that video he was able to make hits and got penetration out to 440yds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wXFf34bB34&t=551s

He also did a part 2, with hollow point ammo. He was able to get hollow points to expand out to 440yds as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM6BOjsFx4M

So the effective range would really come down to your shooting ability IMHO.

As far as cons on the system? 9mm AR rifles can be.... a bit finnicky in my experience. co-worker bough a braced factory 9mm AR pistol that took glock mags. a high dollar one, I think he paid around $1400 for it, thing would not feed from 33rnd factory glock mags, but likes the 15 and 17rnds mags fine. used a custom upper and lower designed specifically for 9mm and glock mags. I will never touch one.
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.
Shadow9mm is offline  
Old June 12, 2022, 05:33 PM   #12
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 17,642
IDPA and USPSA put in Pistol Caliber Carbine match divisions to improve attendance.
Reliability there counts more than power or benchrest accuracy.

Quote:
An additional limiting factor can be the guns themselves. All the 9mm carbines I know personally, are blow back guns. I'm not sure about the AR 9mm, but I think it is, also. .357 carbines are locked breech guns. That makes a difference when working for maximum loads.
JP offers a roller delay action AR derivative at a price premium over their blowback gun.
CMMG has their Radial Delayed Blowback action which has locking lugs but no gas handling; the lugs are beveled to cam the bolt open under pressure.
There is another outfit that makes a delay buffer applicable to a standard blowback gun, and another that offers even a magnetic buffer.

Most of these are directed toward smooth operation for the rapid fire match PCC. High powered PCC is directed toward 10mm.

Quote:
The advantage to a 9mm carbine over a handgun is mostly the fact that a rifle is easier to shoot accurately and that provides an increase in usable range, for most people.
True, which is part of its appeal in competition; also as a home defense weapon.

Quote:
The other advantage is, if you already have a 9mm pistol, it can shoot the same ammo.
Commonly seen among casual shooters. Serious competitors have separate PCC and PCP ammunition.

Last edited by Jim Watson; June 12, 2022 at 05:42 PM.
Jim Watson is online now  
Old June 12, 2022, 05:41 PM   #13
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 3,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyotewsm View Post
What would be the effective range of a 9mm AR rifle. Also what would be the pros and cons of one?
Effective for what?

I have several of them, from 8" integrally suppressed to 16". We have a few issues, especially with factory ammo. For most, the powder stops generating volume and the pressure drops between 7 to 9" down the barrel, and, in most, the bolt (blowbacks) has already started to open making the pressure drop rapid. That has something to do with how dirty they run, reliability and wear. When one goes to a slower powder, now you are opening the action when the powder is still burning which is harder on the bolt and the brass.

I've shot several PCC matches, as well as 2 gun matches with PCC. Most folks find that somewhere around 75 to 100 yards, their groups become patterns. Un-nerving when, on average a PCC is about 4 times more accurate than a pistol shooting the same ammo. Bullets lose their stability, go transonic and become unruly. I've been able to, with the right tune and loads, keep accuracy in the 5 to 6 inch range out to 250 yards, but the same loads are close getting close to 2 feet at 300 yards while my 10mm is still ticking along with 7 to 8 inch groups at 300 yards (DI, Glock mag fed).

While I have a load that is close to 1700 fps at the muzzle with close to 700 ft-lbs of energy, by 200 yards, it carries the same MV and energy as my micro 9s, with 2 feet of drop. But I can not put the bullets reliably into a group of under 2 inches like I can my micro 9s at 10 yards. I've shot Coyotes and Prairie Dogs out to about 100 yards and they worked fine on the Coyotes.

Standard AR, standard loads, 100 is probably the limit to take you to the same general performance of a 9mm handgun at 25 yards, and probably that is a fair number.
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us
MarkCO is offline  
Old June 13, 2022, 12:37 AM   #14
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,247
Quote:
Iraqveteran8888 did some testing with ball ammo at , using the old pine board method. According to that video he was able to make hits and got penetration out to 440yds.
the other day I had to look up and the data I had only went out to 250yds, but at that range, a 9mm fired from a carbine length barrel was down to the 800s fps and less than 200ft/lbs energy. And the drop from a 50yd zero was 6 feet.

Now nearly double that distance, wouldn't this about double the drop, and about halve the velocity and energy??

(seriously, please, if you have the actual figures share them with us)

So, if that's right, at 440yds, you've got a bullet that drops about a dozen feed on its way there, and when it gets there has about 100ft/lbs or maybe less.

For comparison, the regular high speed .22LR (40gr @ 1200fps) has about 130-140 ft/lbs at the muzzle.

Is 100ft/lbs (possibly less) enough to punch a bullet into a pine board? I think yes. Maybe even through. is it enough to reliably get a bullet to the vital area of a person or an animal? possibly, if everything is just right, but if not, I think it unlikely.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old June 13, 2022, 11:40 AM   #15
zeke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 1999
Location: NW Wi
Posts: 1,408
Have several 9mm carbines. They are easy to shoot accurately enough at close range, use easily reloadable brass, commonly found/obtained bullets, cheap to feed if you control yourself and can be very affordable. Several fold down into very/extremely small transportable packages, especially if properly registered.
zeke is offline  
Old June 14, 2022, 05:31 AM   #16
kymasabe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2005
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 2,665
I haven't tried any AR 9mm PCC's, but my old KelTec sub2000 9mm is an absolute hoot to shoot, ridiculously good fun, and eats everything. I can't remember the last time it had a jam or failure. Accurate enough at 100 yards, but I wouldn't feel comfortable pushing it past that. I dont have the data to back me up, but I always assumed 9mm was too slow and too weak to take game with past 100 yards.
__________________
God's creatures big and small, eat them one, eat them all.
kymasabe is offline  
Old June 14, 2022, 08:18 AM   #17
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 9,992
9mm carbine to me is sorta like shooting an AK in that it has a rainbow trajectory.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old June 14, 2022, 04:13 PM   #18
101combatvet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2011
Posts: 575
The effective range would be between 100 and 200 meters, depending on the manufacturer of the AR.
__________________
Special Operations Combat Veteran
Gunsmith, BS, MFA - I can outsmart you!
Competitive Shooter - and out shoot you!
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor [8 Courses]
101combatvet is offline  
Old June 14, 2022, 07:04 PM   #19
berettaprofessor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2008
Posts: 1,054
I can give a thumbs up for Glock-mag based systems like the FM9.

I've also found an FoxTrotMike 9mm upper on a standard lower with properly prepared EndoMags to be reliable.
__________________
"What most people forget is that the first country the Nazi's conquered was their own." 44AMP on thefiringline.com
berettaprofessor is offline  
Old June 21, 2022, 09:51 AM   #20
CZRex
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2021
Posts: 6
I just bought the Keltec Sub 2000. (I know this is kind of piggy backing the original thread. Forgive me.) I know it's not exactly an AR9, but has anyone had experience with that? The vast majority of reviews I've seen for it have been very good.

Last edited by CZRex; June 21, 2022 at 09:56 AM.
CZRex is offline  
Old June 21, 2022, 05:52 PM   #21
zeke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 1999
Location: NW Wi
Posts: 1,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by CZRex View Post
I just bought the Keltec Sub 2000. (I know this is kind of piggy backing the original thread. Forgive me.) I know it's not exactly an AR9, but has anyone had experience with that? The vast majority of reviews I've seen for it have been very good.
Very compact when folded, accurate, reliable and affordable. Sights are a little flimsy. Be careful about upgrading it into something it ain't.
zeke is offline  
Old June 21, 2022, 07:31 PM   #22
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 3,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by CZRex View Post
I just bought the Keltec Sub 2000. (I know this is kind of piggy backing the original thread. Forgive me.) I know it's not exactly an AR9, but has anyone had experience with that? The vast majority of reviews I've seen for it have been very good.
Great little package. I have the rubber pad on the stock tube, which helps. Just remember, it is a $450ish carbine, meant to be light and portable. Don't sink $400 in upgrades into it, then you would have been better off buying an AR9.

My most used one is at about 30K rounds now.
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us
MarkCO is offline  
Old June 23, 2022, 10:07 AM   #23
CZRex
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2021
Posts: 6
#21 & #22, thanks for the info. Yeah, I need to find a small, low profile bag to carry it in.
CZRex is offline  
Old June 23, 2022, 02:41 PM   #24
bfoosh006
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2009
Posts: 1,078
FWIW, if anyone has a 16" 9MM PCC.. here is 129 OEM factory loads chrono tested.

https://www.m14forum.com/threads/16-...ay-7th.313130/

And IMHO, the trajectory of the 9MM Luger is quite similar to a 22LR when fired from a 10/22.
bfoosh006 is offline  
Old June 23, 2022, 08:51 PM   #25
Screwball
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2012
Location: ME
Posts: 722
I have a Beretta CX4, which is my 16” 9mm. It’s nice, but will be nicer when I thread it. On my list… just further down the list than other stuff.

I have a .45 D/I AR… which currently has a 16” barrel. But I’m planning on SBRing it, and having it cut to 10”-11”.

My current AR9 is actually a pistol… with a 6” barrel and Dead Air Odessa suppressor. It is nice, especially taking Glock magazines… which is what my duty gun is (19 Gen5 MOS). I don’t figure it a 100+ yard gun, but I do know my holds to get a little past that. Even my 5.56mm truck gun is able to reach out to 200 yards… but it just isn’t as common in my area as it would be. Something within 100 yards is more common, but I still consider longer distances.

For the suppressed AR9, it does make it easy to use as a defensive gun… and sort of was my main reason for it. Personally, I’m happy with the overall length verses the capability of it. Could I squeeze a little more power out of an 8” barrel? Probably, but it is quiet and shorter. With 147 grain (our old duty round… unsure about the G2 that we switched to), it is still subsonic out of the 6”.

I get the idea of sticking with a rifle… but to me, pistol or SBR is nicer in 9mm. If braces are made into stocks, I’ll SBR all my pistols at that time. But 9mm with 16” barrels, I just don’t feel are worth it. If I’m going that length… why not just stick with 5.56mm?
Screwball is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.13427 seconds with 11 queries