After trimming , What does this mean ?

Metal god · February 20, 2014, 11:06 PM

So I just finished annealing for the first time then sized and trimmed the cases .These cases have been reloaded 5 times . The guide that slides into the neck on my Lyman trimmer almost gets stuck inside the neck on about half the cases . While trimming it scrapes the inside of the neck pretty good .

The 2 on the left are tight necks the one on the right does not stick when trimming

http://imageshack.com/a/img199/8906/14pk.jpg

These are Mil-surp WCC cases . Is this do to the fact brass has flowed into the necks afther so many loadings and those necks need to be turned down before I size next .I assume if I turn down the outside of the necks before sizing again This will cause the inside of the necks not to be sized down as much next time . I use a Redding FL bushing die if that matters .

tangolima · February 20, 2014, 11:28 PM

You may want to try a slightly different sequence that you trim right after resizing. Make sure you using expander ball when resizing.

-TL

Metal god · February 21, 2014, 12:14 AM

Your not supposed to use an expander ball with bushing dies . The bushing is designed to size your neck to a specific size . If you use the expander it change the size to what the expander is and makes the bushing worthless .

I do have many bushing I can pick from . I can try to use a bigger bushing but how or what do I measure to now what bushing to use in this instance . Normally you measure the neck on a loaded case and use a bushing .001 to .002 smaller . I can't do that in this case because I need to know what bushing to use before I size the case . Do I measure in inside of the fired cases and the ones that are smaller use a bigger bushing or measure the neck wall thickness and the thicker ones use the bigger bushing ?

I'm trying to get consistent bullet hold or neck tension

EDIT . I just remembered something Bart B said . I need to measure the neck wall thickness . I just did that and I indeed have cases that the necks are now as much as .003 thicker . That is making me size the necks that much smaller . Funny part about that is . Now that I've annealed , the thinner walled necks don't have enough bullet hold any more . once I have the bullet seated in the thinner necks I can force it in deeper by pushing the nose of the bullet hard into my bench . That as always been my test for bullet hold/neck tension . If I can't force the bullet deeper by hand I have enough neck tension . . My 335 bushingins used to be perfect . Now it looks like I'll need to go to my 334 bushing and try those .

**44 AMP** · February 21, 2014, 01:14 AM

I don't use (or know much about) the bushing dies. From what you said you DON"T use an expander ball?

How does the bushing die compensate for variations in case neck wall thickness?

With regular dies, it is the expander ball that ensures the inside neck diameter is correct for good tension on the bullet (bullet pull). Variations in neck wall thickness don't matter (provided the necks are not to thick to expand and release the bullet in a given chamber). When necks are too thick, we turn down the outside of the neck. The inside is always "right" (provided you are using the correct expander ball.

If you are only sizing the outside of the neck in the die, I would think that it would only be "right" for a certain thickness of brass.

Also, remember that different variations in alloy mean different degrees of "spring back" in the brass. The amount isn't much, but might account for the fact that different cases, sized the same, some will be tight on the pilot, and others not so much.

Metal god · February 21, 2014, 01:44 AM

44 amp

Quote:

How does the bushing die compensate for variations in case neck wall thickness?

It doesn't that's the nut behind the wheel's job .

Your right there is variations in the wall thickness and that is why I feel I'm going to need to start turning my necks . Or measure the wall thickness for each case and size accordingly to get that consistant bullet hold . Really at this point I don't even know why I bother with this stuff . My guns are not good enough to see the difference and I'm not a good enough shooter either . Put those two things together and ,,,well you know

.

Quote:

Also, remember that different variations in alloy mean different degrees of "spring back" in the brass.

oh so true and I'm not sure if thats why I'm having my other new issue after annealing . I FL size with the bushing dies . I had the die set perfect to set the shoulder back .001 to .002 almost every time . Now after annealing . My shoulders are all over the place . from .001 to .005 back . Some even get longer . they start out 1.623 and after sizing they are 1.6235 or 1.624 all with out adjusting the die . that means my spread is .006 , not many but a couple . I was going to start a separate thread on this issue . I thought annealing was going to fix all the inconsistent spring back and make all the cases act the same . For me it has gotten much harder to get a consistent case in any way really .

steve4102 · February 21, 2014, 05:27 AM

Size em without the bushing or a larger bushing, then trim. Or reduce the size of your trim pilot.
How much "Neck" tension are you getting with your current bushing set up? That is, outside measurement of case neck after sizing and again after seating a bullet.

tangolima · February 21, 2014, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal god

Your not supposed to use an expander ball with bushing dies . The bushing is designed to size your neck to a specific size . If you use the expander it change the size to what the expander is and makes the bushing worthless .

Oh, I didn't realize you were using a bushing die.

In that case, you need to turn the neck. It is something you will need to so anyway, or you are not getting the full benefit of a bushing die.

The bushing size and the neck wall thickness determine the inside diameter of the neck. You want to have the right combination such that you will have the correct neck tension and that the trimmer pilot can slip in.

I still would trim right after sizing, then anneal.

-TL

603Country · February 21, 2014, 09:13 AM

There's no rule that says you can't use the expander ball with the bushing die. I have the Redding FL bushing die and I've tried reloads with and without the expander ball - finally deciding to go without the expander ball. Shot pretty good either way. As for turning the necks, if you are using Lapua, Norma, or Nosler I do not believe that you have to turn the necks. With Remington and Winchester, I do turn the necks, but just enough to even things out and remove a high side (if there is one).

AllenJ · February 21, 2014, 10:20 AM

I would think that if you are going to use a bushing die without an expander ball measuring, and keeping consistent, the thickness of the case necks would be a must. Otherwise your neck tension on the bullets is going to be all over the place.

February 20, 2014, 11:06 PM	#1
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	After trimming , What does this mean ? So I just finished annealing for the first time then sized and trimmed the cases .These cases have been reloaded 5 times . The guide that slides into the neck on my Lyman trimmer almost gets stuck inside the neck on about half the cases . While trimming it scrapes the inside of the neck pretty good . The 2 on the left are tight necks the one on the right does not stick when trimming http://imageshack.com/a/img199/8906/14pk.jpg These are Mil-surp WCC cases . Is this do to the fact brass has flowed into the necks afther so many loadings and those necks need to be turned down before I size next .I assume if I turn down the outside of the necks before sizing again This will cause the inside of the necks not to be sized down as much next time . I use a Redding FL bushing die if that matters . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

February 21, 2014, 12:14 AM	#3
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,875	Your not supposed to use an expander ball with bushing dies . The bushing is designed to size your neck to a specific size . If you use the expander it change the size to what the expander is and makes the bushing worthless . I do have many bushing I can pick from . I can try to use a bigger bushing but how or what do I measure to now what bushing to use in this instance . Normally you measure the neck on a loaded case and use a bushing .001 to .002 smaller . I can't do that in this case because I need to know what bushing to use before I size the case . Do I measure in inside of the fired cases and the ones that are smaller use a bigger bushing or measure the neck wall thickness and the thicker ones use the bigger bushing ? I'm trying to get consistent bullet hold or neck tension EDIT . I just remembered something Bart B said . I need to measure the neck wall thickness . I just did that and I indeed have cases that the necks are now as much as .003 thicker . That is making me size the necks that much smaller . Funny part about that is . Now that I've annealed , the thinner walled necks don't have enough bullet hold any more . once I have the bullet seated in the thinner necks I can force it in deeper by pushing the nose of the bullet hard into my bench . That as always been my test for bullet hold/neck tension . If I can't force the bullet deeper by hand I have enough neck tension . . My 335 bushingins used to be perfect . Now it looks like I'll need to go to my 334 bushing and try those . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; February 21, 2014 at 12:46 AM.

February 21, 2014, 01:14 AM	#4
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	I don't use (or know much about) the bushing dies. From what you said you DON"T use an expander ball? How does the bushing die compensate for variations in case neck wall thickness? With regular dies, it is the expander ball that ensures the inside neck diameter is correct for good tension on the bullet (bullet pull). Variations in neck wall thickness don't matter (provided the necks are not to thick to expand and release the bullet in a given chamber). When necks are too thick, we turn down the outside of the neck. The inside is always "right" (provided you are using the correct expander ball. If you are only sizing the outside of the neck in the die, I would think that it would only be "right" for a certain thickness of brass. Also, remember that different variations in alloy mean different degrees of "spring back" in the brass. The amount isn't much, but might account for the fact that different cases, sized the same, some will be tight on the pilot, and others not so much. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 20, 2014, 11:28 PM	#2
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,816	You may want to try a slightly different sequence that you trim right after resizing. Make sure you using expander ball when resizing. -TL

February 21, 2014, 05:27 AM	#6
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,952	Size em without the bushing or a larger bushing, then trim. Or reduce the size of your trim pilot. How much "Neck" tension are you getting with your current bushing set up? That is, outside measurement of case neck after sizing and again after seating a bullet.

February 21, 2014, 09:13 AM	#8
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	There's no rule that says you can't use the expander ball with the bushing die. I have the Redding FL bushing die and I've tried reloads with and without the expander ball - finally deciding to go without the expander ball. Shot pretty good either way. As for turning the necks, if you are using Lapua, Norma, or Nosler I do not believe that you have to turn the necks. With Remington and Winchester, I do turn the necks, but just enough to even things out and remove a high side (if there is one).

February 21, 2014, 10:20 AM	#9
AllenJ Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: Northern California Posts: 1,766	I would think that if you are going to use a bushing die without an expander ball measuring, and keeping consistent, the thickness of the case necks would be a must. Otherwise your neck tension on the bullets is going to be all over the place.