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View Poll Results: Is 5.56 inadequate for personal protection?
Absolutely, it's an overrated varmint cartridge unfit for duty. 2 2.74%
Certainly not, it offers the best balance of range, power, and controlability. 3 4.11%
No, it's effective within its defined parameters. 63 86.30%
Somewhat, it's better than a sharp stick, but there are much better options available. 5 6.85%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 8, 2023, 02:36 PM   #101
davidsog
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I think a lot of your confusion comes from not understanding CQB tactics and how the sectors of work. It very much depends on where the target is standing.

Double tapping was the standard method of engagement with a failure drill conducted if the target had armor. Later, We adjusted our training to a failure drill if the target was still standing and hence the terminology change from a Mozambique to simply a "Failure Drill".

A four man team will put eight bullets into a target in sector 3 just because it is in sector 3.

Sector 1 and 2 with a target standing in the beginning of their sector will only have two bullets from the Operators double tap. That is where the string of fire happens and where I encountered my first enemy combatant.
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Old December 8, 2023, 07:19 PM   #102
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The 5.56 is certainly an effective self defense cartridge but so is the .38 Special. Is it the best self defense cartridge? I don't know but I'd wager it would work for self defense close to 100% of the time.

Is it the best cartridge for the military? That is a different subject than civilian self defense.

Is the 5.56 what I use for self defense? No, but I think it's very effective.
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Old December 8, 2023, 09:48 PM   #103
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This brings a question to mind...

At what distance(s) does a Close Quarter Battle actually occur? I ask because as often as I see folks using the term, it doesn't seem like any two people can seem to agree on how close the "close" part of CQB actually is, but it doesn't seem to be within striking distance at least, otherwise I imagine that Bayonets would be considered more useful.
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Old December 9, 2023, 09:58 AM   #104
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Quote:
At what distance(s) does a Close Quarter Battle actually occur?
3-7 feet is typical. Occasionally you get a larger engagement distance down a hallway or a very large room.
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Old December 9, 2023, 11:30 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsog View Post
3-7 feet is typical. Occasionally you get a larger engagement distance down a hallway or a very large room.
It is foot or yard? 3-7 feet seems too close. 3-7 yards (9-21 feet) sounds more reasonable.

-TL

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Old December 9, 2023, 11:46 AM   #106
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Four Operators and Four Bad guys in a 20x10 room.

What do you think the distances are going to be between muzzles?
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Old December 9, 2023, 12:15 PM   #107
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If the defenders are caught unprepared, any distance from 0 to 20 feet is possible. If the they are alerted, it would be at least 10 feet.

I just think it would be risky to let the bad guy be so close that they can grab your gun.

-TL

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Old December 9, 2023, 02:28 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsog
3-7 feet is typical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsog
Four Operators and Four Bad guys in a 20x10 room.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsog
A four man team will put eight bullets into a target in sector 3 just because it is in sector 3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsog
We averaged 8 round to get an immediate stop in the house that first tour.
Taken all together, these quotes suggest one reason for having a high number of shots hitting each target. Given the described circumstances (1-2 yards range, some targets automatically engaged with as many as 8 rounds just by virtue of their placement in the room), one would logically expect to see a lot of targets hit a lot of times.
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Old December 9, 2023, 05:45 PM   #109
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With the exception of a good central nervous system disruption,dying takes a bit of time. Even for a cartridge like the 30-06. Maybe only seconds, but a Fighter can cost friendly life as a final defiant act.
Taking hits is likely disruptive. At least for a few seconds. I'm not a Veteran,but IMO,policy be darned! I think it best to keep shooting till the bad guy drops his weapon and goes limp.

A friend who was a Platoon Leader and Ranger 1st Infantry,Michelin Rubber area of Vietnam explained once an objective is taken, sure,a "Chu Hoi" can be recognised ,secured,and treated,.Its one thing if they surrender. But if they are representing themselves as "dead" ........it does not take many incidents of a "dead enemy" pressing a trigger or tossing a grenade, killing or wounding a Buddy to implement a policy of "overkill"..

Sounds bad,but "War is Hell"

Last edited by HiBC; December 9, 2023 at 05:52 PM.
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Old December 10, 2023, 12:18 PM   #110
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Quote:
Taken all together, these quotes suggest one reason for having a high number of shots hitting each target. Given the described circumstances (1-2 yards range, some targets automatically engaged with as many as 8 rounds just by virtue of their placement in the room), one would logically expect to see a lot of targets hit a lot of times.
A target in sector 3 that goes down immediately will only have the bullets in him that were required for an immediate stop.

If it takes 8 bullets for an immediate stop then he will have 8 bullets and that means the target was a threat long enough to receive the full attention from every operator entering the room.

Multiple shots were required for targets in sector 1 and 2. Those sectors were the problematic ones requiring extra attention and a string of fire from the operator.
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Old December 10, 2023, 12:31 PM   #111
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its why the 16 went to 3 round bursts.............


personally?
you wont catch me stepping into 4000fps.
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Old December 15, 2023, 07:07 PM   #112
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M193:

The damage caused by the 5.56 mm bullet [M193] was originally believed to be caused by "tumbling" due to the slow 1 turn in 14-inch (360 mm) rifling twist rate.[43][58] However, any pointed lead core bullet will "tumble" after penetration into flesh, because the center of gravity is towards the rear of the bullet.


The large wounds observed by soldiers in Vietnam were caused by bullet fragmentation created by a combination of the bullet's velocity and construction.[60] These wounds were so devastating that the photographs remained classified into the 1980s.[61]...

... The original ammunition for the M16 was the 55-grain M193 cartridge. When fired from a 20 in (510 mm) barrel at ranges of up to 300 feet (100 m), the thin-jacketed lead-cored round traveled fast enough (above 2,900 ft/s (880 m/s))...


that the force of striking a human body would cause the round to yaw (or tumble) and fragment into about a dozen pieces of various sizes thus created wounds that were out of proportion to its caliber.[142][143]

These wounds were so devastating that many considered the M16 to be an inhumane weapon.[146][147][148]


As the 5.56 mm round's velocity decreases, so does the number of fragments that it produces.[24] The 5.56 mm round does not normally fragment at distances beyond 200 meters or at velocities below 2500 ft/s, and its lethality becomes largely dependent on shot placement.[24][143]




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Old December 15, 2023, 09:30 PM   #113
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Varmint grenades had some pretty shocking results when I used them, very light and very fast.
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Old December 16, 2023, 02:48 AM   #114
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'if its made by mattel....its swell!'

anyone remember that?
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Old December 16, 2023, 10:35 AM   #115
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You mean do we remember the myth?
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Old January 1, 2024, 10:33 AM   #116
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Ask any combat vet with several confirmed kills. 5.56 is great for medium and close range engagements. Longer than that you'll want a 7.62-tier round of some sort
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Old January 2, 2024, 02:24 PM   #117
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Quote:
You mean do we remember the myth?
I remember a lot of myths about the M16 rifles. The myth that Mattel made the entire rifle is, obviously just that, a myth.

The myth that Mattel made the plastic parts of the rifle isn't quite as clear, but to date, no photos of Mattel marked parts have come to light.

However, Mattel was involved, at first, sort of. There is documented evidence that Mattel, because of their expertise in injection molding techniques, was sought out, and did assist in the design and development of the molds used for mass production of the stocks, and handguards.
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Old January 2, 2024, 05:24 PM   #118
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Good Rumors....? Not.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...6-rifle-207740

On the other hand:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMR9kwgxTh4

(Remember boys & girls . . .
I'm just here for the food.



But getting more serious:
https://www.thearmorylife.com/mattel-m16-rifle/

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Old January 3, 2024, 12:14 AM   #119
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Yup. I'll bet he's not the only one that pulled that brand of joke. I'm guessing that type of thing probably accounts for many of the "eyewitness" stories about Mattel marked M16s/parts.
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Old January 3, 2024, 03:47 AM   #120
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Anyone growing up in the 60's and 70's can probably remember Mattel plastic toys and models--I can also remember M16/AR15 not-so-lovingly referred to sometimes as "plastic fantastic."
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Old January 3, 2024, 05:27 AM   #121
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It probably didn't help that in the movie "The Green Berets" John Wayne used a Mattel (or whatever) as a prop when he got mad and smashed a rifle.

There is sort of a time warp /perception thing going on. Earlier days,"plastic" was associated with cheap junk, just as "Made in Japan" was.....once.

And the USA Gun Crank Curmudgeon would not accept anything but walnut and blued steel.

These days you can buy race engine connecting rods of "plastic" (composite).

I'd just about bet there have been as many walnut M-14 stocks broken as M-16 or M-4.

From value priced Ruger American and Savage rifles to top of the line precision chassis rifles to light and strong hunting rifles, composite serves well.

Historically, derogatory terms like "Mattel" have been applied...

But really? Its rooted in ignorance. Mattel use a lot of commodity polystyrene. Cheap and it glued with toulene.

I don't know what composite is used in the M-16- M-4 stocks. I believe its a carbon filled polycarbonate.

And Yeah,we call Glocks and M+P's etc "Tupperware" guns.

They sure work good. They hold up, and,all things considered, they are affordable.

I get that these are probably "Yuk it up" joking posts. Getting bored?

There just ain't the old growth Missouri Walnut there used to be. The trees are gone. What you going to use for gun handles?

Composite have literally evolve to be space age stuff.

Do we call our stealth aircraft Mattel? Or should we have stayed with wood and silk? I guess the Swordfish/ Stringbag disabled the Bismark...
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Old January 3, 2024, 03:45 PM   #122
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I'd just about bet there have been as many walnut M-14 stocks broken as M-16 or M-4.
If you're going to count the handguards for the M16 /M16A1 I'd bet there were way more of those broken than wooden stocks. The little tabs that formed the cooling holes got broken a lot, and 3 broken tabs (counting both top and bottom) made the handguard unserviceable.

Quote:
I guess the Swordfish/ Stringbag disabled the Bismark...
A lucky torpedo hit did, the "stringbag" just got it there.

Do note that less than a year later, Swordfish failed to inflict any damage at all on the battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen as they made their dash through the English Channel in broad daylight. Also, if I remember right, only one Swordfish returned from the battle. Luftwaffe fighters and flak got the rest.

Back on topic, I consider the .223 to be a good varmint cartridge. One has to accept that it has been an effective military round simply because it has worked acceptably well in over all terms, as the military defines them.

I believe there are many superior rounds, in terms of down range effectiveness, and as a civilian, I am free to choose what I feel works best.
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Old January 3, 2024, 07:32 PM   #123
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The army is full of myths and soldiers’ versions of urban legends.
There were stories that I heard almost verbatim hundreds of times with hundreds of individual soldiers claiming to be eyewitnesses too.
Seemingly every soldier who trained at Grafenwöhr took down a boar with a cleaning rod shot out of an M16/M4 bore with a blank. (Effective combination apparently)
Seems that the 5.56 mythology is mixed with some reality. Claims range from the bullet bouncing off a field jacket to blowing a 9 inch hole out of the enemy’s back.
I’d say again that it is useful, especially with good ammunition such as hunting/expanding ammunition. With FMJ and penetrating ammunition, the results are less predictable. The priority for the military is penetration.
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Old January 3, 2024, 10:14 PM   #124
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Quote:
Seemingly every soldier who trained at Grafenwöhr took down a boar with a cleaning rod shot out of an M16/M4 bore with a blank.
I never did that!! But then, I didn't train at Graf, I was "permanent party". Guess life with the boonie troops was rough!
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Old January 3, 2024, 10:51 PM   #125
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There was never any truth to the Urban Legend that Mattel was involved in any capacity in the development or production of the AR-15/M-16 or its furniture.

The fact is that for a short time the US Army used the Mattel Marauder — a realistic toy version of the M-16 with a working charging handle, selector switch, and sound effects — for training/decoy purposes because it was cheap and readily available in the early days before they even had enough actual M-16s to issue to troops in the field, much less cadets in boot camp. A lot of veterans didn't like the M-16 because to them it seemed like a toy in comparison to the earlier M1 Garand and the short-term M-14 service weapons, so when those veterans saw cadets running around with Mattel Marauders in basic training, they saw the "Mattel" logo on the receiver, mistook them for the real deal, and were all too happy to use it as justification for their opinion that it was inferior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC
Yeah,we call Glocks and M+P's etc "Tupperware" guns.
Which is rather amusing because the actual origin of the term "Tupperware Gun" for Glocks was never a reference to the polymer frame but rather the Tupperware-style cases which First Generation Glocks were shipped in.

So literally everyone who still refers to Glocks let alone other polymer framed pistols as "Tupperware Guns" is only showcasing their ignorance by doing so.
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