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View Poll Results: Is 5.56 inadequate for personal protection?
Absolutely, it's an overrated varmint cartridge unfit for duty. 2 2.74%
Certainly not, it offers the best balance of range, power, and controlability. 3 4.11%
No, it's effective within its defined parameters. 63 86.30%
Somewhat, it's better than a sharp stick, but there are much better options available. 5 6.85%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 21, 2023, 02:11 PM   #51
rickyrick
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Funny thing, it’s the caliber that government is most afraid of being in civilian hands.
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Old November 21, 2023, 06:36 PM   #52
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Funny thing, it’s the caliber that government is most afraid of being in civilian hands.
Is it? I don't recall any .223/5.56 legislation being proposed, just mag limits and platforms. Maybe I missed the call to arms from the NRA to contact my congressfolk about protecting the .223 from the government? Either way, the government doesn't care how we consider the ammo, whether we consider it to be strong or weak.

If they do fear the caliber, it isn't so much for the capabilities or lack thereof as noted here, but the fact that it is so commonplace. .223 is the 2nd most popular rifle caliber, but the first most popular centerfire rifle caliber in the US (behind the venerable .22) (based on sales).
https://backfire.tv/popular-cartridges/

For companies like Lucky Gunner, it is the 2nd most common caliber sold from their inventory, behind 9mm.
http://knowledgeglue.com/what-are-th...ers-in-the-us/

Many of us may not consider it the be all to end all of calibers, but I bet you will find it in lots of bug out bags.
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Old November 21, 2023, 07:19 PM   #53
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They want to ban the AR15, which is capable of firing 5.56… they call it a powerful military cartridge… when it fits the narrative, they call them “cop killer bullets”
Add a pistol brace, and it makes the gun fire a larger caliber.

Now I posted that with a bit of sarcasm… I doubt anti-gunners even know what caliber the AR15 fires from its military grade pistol-clips

If I remember correctly, some countries ban military calibers.
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Old November 21, 2023, 08:29 PM   #54
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Don't forget that .223 travels at 3x the speed of light. That's my personal favorite one right there.
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Old November 21, 2023, 09:31 PM   #55
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The really ironic thing is that the government MADE the 5.56/.223 the most popular caliber, along with convincing millions of people to buy AR 15s.

They did this by trying to ban the gun, and stupidly, failing.

Forbidden fruit, people.

The AR 15 and the .223 hit the commercial market in the early 60s (round 64 or so I think), and did not set the world on fire. Sales were low, there was not a lot of interest at the time.

The rifle cost more than a decent deer rifle, and fired a round that wasn't legal for deer in over half the country. There wasn't a big market for any military look alikes, even when chambered in deer class rounds. The FAL was also on the market then, and sales were...lackluster. Again, cost was a major factor, along with the military styling which didn't appeal to most of the market in those days.

By the 80s, the redesign of the AR made it much more accurate, and modular accessories were being made, in ever increasing numbers, and interest was picking up. By the 90s, the Govt was demonizing the gun and enacted a partial ban with the 94 AWB law.

THAT got people VERY interested in having one (or more) and when that law sunset in 2004 LOTS of people who never wanted one before went out and bought them, and people have kept on buying the gun the Govt didn't want you to have in large numbers.

EVERY law increasing restriction on the AR in one state or another upped the AR sales in all the other states, and it continues to this day.
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Old November 21, 2023, 11:57 PM   #56
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Indeed, it's most likely that if so many anti-gun politicians hadn't so aggressively pushed for the AR-15 to be banned throughout the past few decades, then it wouldn't be very popular at all on the civilian market right now.
Heck, it's entirely possible that the AR-15 would be no more popular than any other military issued rifle at this point in time had it not received so much attention in the media, thanks to persist efforts to demonize the rifle by anti-gun politicians.

It almost makes me sort of grateful to them... I only just got an AR Pattern Rifle this year, and I very much doubt that I would have been so fortunate as to score a $1379 MSRP Rifle for $685 as a Police Trade-in if the AR-15 wasn't such a popular and highly copied design. After all, the AR-15/M4 Carbine would most likely only be manufactured by Colt and FN under military contract by now in a world where the design hadn't received such enduring media attention throughout the past few decades in a desperate attempt to demonize/ban the AR-15. Yet now practically every major firearms manufacturer offers some variation of the AR/M4 with very competitive pricing — not to mention several high-end custom shops — thus making it widely available in practically endless configurations at affordable prices.
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Old November 22, 2023, 04:37 AM   #57
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I agree that many people buy ARs and AKs to have what the government doesn't want them to have. In reality I think the Mini 14 or M1 carbine are much more practical guns for most people than ARs since they operate more similarly to the popular Ruger 10/22. I find the charging handle on the AR 15 to be in an awkward position to load the first round since you have to take the gun off your shoulder to do so. If you are shooting and running mags with the ping pong paddle to load the first round without having to pull back the charging handle they work fine but ARs are also very tall so shooting them from a bench rest or prone can be a bit awkward when you are used to "normal" shaped guns.
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Old November 22, 2023, 06:41 AM   #58
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— thus making it widely available in practically endless configurations at affordable prices.
Not that that has anything to do with its popularity.
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Old November 22, 2023, 10:11 AM   #59
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This thread had me looking at the 5.7 cartridge, since it’s a similar bullet with a smaller cartridge and was surprised at the number of government entities using the p90 as their weapon; this includes the US Secret Service
Bottom line is these intermediate cartridges (5.7 is actually a pistol cartridge), especially in the 22cal range is effective enough and keeps the bean counters happy
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Old November 22, 2023, 02:56 PM   #60
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Quote:
They want to ban the AR15, which is capable of firing 5.56… they call it a powerful military cartridge… when it fits the narrative, they call them “cop killer bullets”
Add a pistol brace, and it makes the gun fire a larger caliber.
Lots of guns fire the .223/5.56, but they aren't being banned. I don't see how you are saying this is a caliber issue.
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Old November 22, 2023, 03:24 PM   #61
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Mostly sarcasm
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Old November 27, 2023, 04:20 PM   #62
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This will be of only limited and tangential application to the discussion at hand, but it seems these crackpot nutcase mass shooters have no problem piling up bodies with minimal training. Which of course is one of the specious arguments of the antis.
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Old November 28, 2023, 03:08 PM   #63
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I think the nut cases would pile up unarmed victims with just about anything they got their hands on including 5000 pound SUVs. What is ironic is when "experts" start talking up the 5.56 as if it has super powers beyond all normal hunting calibers including the old 30/30. The OPs question is not whether the 5.56 is lethal, the question is whether or not it will put someone down with one shot reliably.
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Old November 28, 2023, 03:56 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rc View Post
I think the nut cases would pile up unarmed victims with just about anything they got their hands on including 5000 pound SUVs. What is ironic is when "experts" start talking up the 5.56 as if it has super powers beyond all normal hunting calibers including the old 30/30. The OPs question is not whether the 5.56 is lethal, the question is whether or not it will put someone down with one shot reliably.
The “super powers”cartridges would be the 6.5 Creedmore and the 10mm.

Last edited by Pumpkin; November 28, 2023 at 03:58 PM. Reason: Speelinng
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Old November 28, 2023, 07:26 PM   #65
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Yeh, stacked up next to 6.5 Creedmore, 7mm 08 etc, 5.56 is a pipsqueak and compared with 454 Casull and 460, the 10mm is so underpowered!
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Old November 28, 2023, 07:56 PM   #66
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I'm not going to go into great detail as I still have a few depositions on this coming up, but there is a trade-off on everything, and with the .mil, consistency is king, and that caters to the lowest common denominator.

It is VERY unlikely the the .277 Fury will make into the hands of the average Joe. SF types first, DMRs certainly, Light machine guns, sure. Common Infantry, nope. Son is in the Honor Guard and was working funerals last week. His partner forgot his overcoat, so, in deference to consistency, neither could wear their overcoats in the snow. It is the way it is. The M4 is light, simple and shootable by 90 pounders to 220 pounders with the flick of the stock.

I have several friends who have been allowed to shoot the Fury's, I have a few cases on my desk. These are highly skilled marksmen, and they report stout recoil, charging, etc. One felt it was more difficult to charge and shoot than his .308 gas gun.

An experts gun is not always suitable for the common person. The .223 AR15 is an equalizer in that the relatively frail can shoot it reasonably well, and longer, than almost anything else available. I can shoot my 5, 6 and 7 pound ARs faster (with the same accuracy) than anything else I own. I can beat my 9mm carbines and pistols with a .223 on almost any drill you toss at me. That is going to be the same for any skilled to proficient to novice shooter.
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Old November 28, 2023, 09:17 PM   #67
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Can't address the OP's question, having never served in infantry etc, or as an LEO.

But If I somehow owned a large ranch near the TX border, (I've never owned "open land") the choices of chamberings for feral animals or feral People might be interesting?

The decision(s) could be influenced by 100-300 yard distances? For this, maybe a .308 vs. a .223 rifle? I don't know....You ranch guys --anywhere --must have interesting debates about this.

My brother-in-law's old friend (former Army brats) with a horse ranch on the AZ border saw several large SUVs Trespass in the distance, probably moving drugs over the border.

Does the penetrability of trucks influence anybody's decision?

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Old November 29, 2023, 07:43 AM   #68
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I would consider that all the millions of bad guys and terrorist killed with the 5.56 NATO since inception are still dead.

It has its place. I will not be getting rid of mine.

I have 3 AR-10's and magnum bolt actions for different applications.
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Old November 29, 2023, 09:36 AM   #69
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I would consider that all the millions of bad guys and terrorist killed with the 5.56 NATO since inception are still dead.
So are the millions killed with .22 lr and they are all still very dead. Funny thing about being dead for a while is that after a given point, ain't nobody coming back, whether they were killed with a nuclear bomb or killed with a virus.

All those millions killed with .223/5.56, what was the efficiency of the cartridge? How many hits did it take to effect kills on average?
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Old November 29, 2023, 10:16 AM   #70
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Governments are most efficient at killing, they’ve had millennia to perfect it.
Fact is, the state of the art has so far rested on the 5.56 and similarly performing cartridges as the most efficient individual cartridge from a government perspective taking in account all aspects of battlefield variables. Many non-military government entities use the cartridges fairly effectively also. The fact that we are now taking ridiculous steps to replace the cartridge hints at the effectiveness of these small caliber intermediate cartridges. It takes the .277 fury to even make the attempt; and as of now, it is only going to augment the 5.56… if it makes the Final Cut.
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Old November 29, 2023, 03:08 PM   #71
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Military arms are made with the idea that they will be usable (not ideal) for everyone from the small through the tall.

Before you decide that a small light rifle and round is a must because of smaller size soldiers, remember that size is no guarantor of ability or willpower.
I've seen smaller guys (120 and less) humping 18lb BARs and keeping up with everyone else. They had to work harder, but they did it.

Quote:
So what do you say? Is the .223/5.56 just an overrated varmint cartridge which has absolutely no place whatsoever in the hands of anyone who takes their personal protection seriously?
This is the OP's question, and its asking an opinion, about PERSONAL protection. Not military performance, good or bad.

I think I take my personal protection seriously, and for me, there is NO .22 cal cartridge that would be my first choice. If the .223 was my only choice, I'd sure use it, but it wouldn't be my preferred choice, not by a long shot.
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Old November 29, 2023, 03:15 PM   #72
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Enjoy reading the comments on this cartridge. My expectations may be a bit different from some others. Here is why I chose the 5.56 and 7.62 x 39 as my intermediate cartridges of choice:

- I am not going to war with it
- I don't hunt with it
- the 5.56 makes a sound that I enjoy (POP) with hearing protection of course
- the 7.62 x 39 makes a sound that I enjoy (BOOM) again, hearing protection
- both are usually quite available and affordable compared to just about any other caliber
- have found the AR to be interesting and enjoyable at the range
- have found the SKS / AK to be the same (even though quite different)

Your mileage may vary, and almost certainly will
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Old November 29, 2023, 03:50 PM   #73
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The 5.56/M16/M4 family of ammunition/weapons does exactly what it intended to do:
Maximize mid-range battlefield/close-quarters combat lethality
Maximize combat load-out/rounds for the soldier.
Maximize accuracy in a combat environment
Minimize combat load weight for same.

War has now (to some extent) changed w/ the introduction of light-weight body armor.
The weapons system will also change to accommodate.

But outside of that, the 5.56/M16/M4 family is as effective as ever.
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Old December 1, 2023, 09:33 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
All those millions killed with .223/5.56, what was the efficiency of the cartridge? How many hits did it take to effect kills on average?
I would presume that it's the same as other round in that regard, with 1 shot to the head or 1 shot to the big toe being more or less equally effective.

Based on what I've read, it seems like all the number of shots indicates is how many times the shooter missed the vitals before he finally landed a critical hit.
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Old December 1, 2023, 09:38 PM   #75
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So are the millions killed with .22 lr and they are all still very dead.
Ahhhh.... What?

Exactly which wars were "millions" killed with 22 Long Rifles?

Step away from the key board. Go do some shooting.
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