The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 3, 2022, 11:34 AM   #1
OPC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2007
Posts: 168
NICS Denial Notification Act

I'm hoping for some clarification/interpretation by the more learned members of this forum regarding the NICS Denial Notification Act, Section 1101 within HR2471 Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2022

From HR2471:
Quote:
(a) <> In General.--If the national instant criminal background check system established under section 103 of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (34 U.S.C.
40901) (referred to in this section as `NICS') provides a notice pursuant to section 922(t) that the receipt of a firearm by a person would violate subsection (g) or (n) of section 922 or State, local, or Tribal law, the Attorney General shall, in accordance with subsection (b) of this section--
``(1) report to the local law enforcement authority of the State or Tribe where the person sought to acquire the firearm and, if different, the local law enforcement authorities of the State or Tribe of residence of the person--
``(A) that the notice was provided;
``(B) the Federal, State, local or Tribal prohibition;
``(C) the date and time the notice was provided;
``(D) the location of the licensee where the firearm was sought to be transferred; and
``(E) the identity of the person; and
``(2) where practicable, report the incident to State and local prosecutors or Tribal prosecutors in the jurisdiction where the firearm transfer was sought.
Some on-line discussions are indicating that both delay and denial will be reported to state/local authorities for investigation, but the text of the law does [not] use the word "delay" in that context at all.

My question is: are delay and denied synonymous as applied by HR2471?
__________________
José

Last edited by OPC; August 3, 2022 at 06:37 PM.
OPC is offline  
Old August 3, 2022, 05:23 PM   #2
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by OPC
Some on-line discussions are indicating that both delay and denial will be reported to state/local authorities for investigation, but the text of the law does use the word "delay" in that context at all.

My question is: are delay and denied synonymous as applied by HR2471?
No, they are not. BUT ...

The law gives the feds 24 hours to report a denial to local authorities. The gummint isn't sure that, if a delay becomes a denial, 24 hours is enough time for them to contact the FFL, get the buyer's address, and forward that to local authorities. Therefore, they have decided to collect that information up front, so they will have it if a delay becomes a denial.

From the NSSF:

Quote:
NSSF has confirmed with NICS that FFLs will not be required to provide the buyer’s complete address as recorded on Form 4473 when initiating a background check. NICS will require FFLs to provide NICS with this information in the event of a Denial or a Delay. NICS advises that the reason for asking for the buyer’s complete address information in the case of Delay is because in the event the Delay is determined to be a Denial the NICS Denial Notification Act requires NICS to notify law enforcement information within 24 hours of denial including the prohibited person’s address. NICS believes they would not be able to meet this statutory 24-hour requirement if they had to contact the FFL in order to obtain the buyer’s address.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old August 3, 2022, 06:45 PM   #3
OPC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2007
Posts: 168
Ok. That seems disingenuous in that not all Denials are necessarily first a Delay. So the 24hr window concern is not mitigated.

I also noted that their reporting window only applies to Denied, but while they’re required to report on a change to Proceed, there is no mandatory timeframe. [sarcasm] So, you know, just whenever. Maybe a monthly batch? [/sarcasm]
__________________
José
OPC is offline  
Old August 3, 2022, 08:49 PM   #4
ballardw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 1,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by OPC View Post
I also noted that their reporting window only applies to Denied, but while they’re required to report on a change to Proceed, there is no mandatory timeframe. [sarcasm] So, you know, just whenever. Maybe a monthly batch? [/sarcasm]
Maybe when a field agent or two want a road trip?!
__________________
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
All data is flawed, some just less so.
ballardw is offline  
Old August 5, 2022, 04:49 PM   #5
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,347
The “we’ll” collect the delayed info as well seems like bull to me . Do they define what a delay is or how long it needs to be . I’m in CA and we have a ten day waiting period so there can be a delay of hours or a few days and the buyer may not even know about it .

If there is a delay what good is keeping the info if it becomes a denial . It’s not like even if it was a straight denial they could do all that reporting AND the local police can get there before the guy leaves the store . So they will be long gone if a delay turns to a denial. Are they saying if there is a delay then denial . There will be no record of the denial only the delay ???? Bolder dash!!!

This is clearly another way to collect info the should not have nor need .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old August 5, 2022, 09:44 PM   #6
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
The “we’ll” collect the delayed info as well seems like bull to me . Do they define what a delay is or how long it needs to be . I’m in CA and we have a ten day waiting period so there can be a delay of hours or a few days and the buyer may not even know about it .

If there is a delay what good is keeping the info if it becomes a denial . It’s not like even if it was a straight denial they could do all that reporting AND the local police can get there before the guy leaves the store . So they will be long gone if a delay turns to a denial. Are they saying if there is a delay then denial . There will be no record of the denial only the delay ????
I don't know how it works in California but, in the states where FFLs contact NICS directly for authorization to make a transfer of a firearm, NICS can come back with one of three responses:
  • Proceed
  • Delay
  • Denied
A "delay" is not a denial. It is exactly what it says it is: a delay. The law says that, in the event of a delay, the FFL "may" complete the transfer after waiting three days if the delay has not been changed to a denial. (Many FFLs prefer not to do this, however.)

I had a delay once, about twenty years ago, on a purchase of a handgun. It was eventually changed to a "Proceed," which was fine except that it meant a second trip to the store, which was an hour from home (each way). But it was an old mil-surp that wasn't a particularly common pistol, so it's not like I could just find one closer to home.

Apparently the new law requires NICS to notify law enforcement of all denials with 24 hours. If they are processing a delay and they turn up information that changes it to a denial, I can see how the timing might make it difficult for them (NICS) to contact the FFL to get the transferee's full name and address and then transmit that to law enforcement within 24 hours so, although I don't like it, I can understand why they would want the full name and address up front.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old August 5, 2022, 11:55 PM   #7
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,347
Quote:
Apparently the new law requires NICS to notify law enforcement of all denials with 24 hours. If they are processing a delay and they turn up information that changes it to a denial, I can see how the timing might make it difficult for them (NICS) to contact the FFL to get the transferee's full name and address and then transmit that to law enforcement within 24 hours so, although I don't like it, I can understand why they would want the full name and address up front.
Them my next question would be , They need to contact FFL with in 24hrs of what . The initial NICS or 24hrs from denial ? If it's from denial what makes an immediate denial different from a delayed one as far as contacting anyone ?

The delay can take a year ( extreme example ) Why do they need the info before the denial ? Does the name and address get erased during a delay ?


You get denied the day of -ok they have 24hrs , you get delayed 2 days and denied - ok again they again have 24hrs from denial correct ? As far as I can tell the denial is what starts things in motion to start making the contacts . I can see how it could be helpful to whom ever but it would also be easier on LEO if they didn't need warrants either . I just don't think it matters how much more helpful it would be in this context . This is collecting firearms ownership related data with no clear reasoning IMHO . If they can start the 24hr clock the instant you are denied , they can start the clock after a 2 day delay then a denial in the same way .

I'm not 100% sure but in CA I don't think they ever get a proceed . If it does not come back delayed or denied inside that 10 days . The store calls you up to come get your item or as I do , I just got pick the item up with in hours of the release date and time .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

Last edited by Metal god; August 6, 2022 at 12:06 AM.
Metal god is offline  
Old August 6, 2022, 12:03 AM   #8
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
Them my next question would be , They need to contact FFL with in 24hrs of what . The initial NICS or 24hrs from denial ? If it's from denial what makes an immediate denial different from a delayed one as far as contacting anyone ?
This was already answered: The new law requires NICS to notify law enforcement within 24 hours of a denial.

A delay is not a denial ... unless it subsequently changes to a denial, which would be the event that triggers the law enforcement notification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
The delay can take a year ( extreme example ) Why do they need the info before the denial ? Does the name and address get erased during a delay ?
They need (or want) the full address because once a delay becomes a denial they only have 24 hours to notify law enforcement. It doesn't matter how long the delay lasts. It's not a denial until it becomes a denial.

Why would they delete the address information during the delay? That would nullify the reason they collected it in the first place -- if they delete it, they won't have it if the delay becomes a denial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
If they can start the the 24hr clock the instant you are denied , they can start the clock after a 2 day delay then a denial .
That's the whole point. The [purported] concern is that IF a delay turns into a denial, that triggers a 24-hour notification window. The FBI is saying that 24 hours may not be enough time to contact the FFL to get the address information.

Example: The indoor range where I shoot is closed on Mondays, so their shop is closed on Mondays. Say he sold a gun on Friday or Saturday that was put on delay. Monday morning the delay becomes a denial. They can't reach him on Monday because he's closed, and on Tuesday he doesn't open until 11:00 a.m. (or noon -- don't remember exactly). So they can't even reach him within the 24 hours and, once they do reach him, then he has to look up the information for them, and then they have to forward it to law enforcement.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old August 6, 2022, 12:11 AM   #9
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,347
Quote:
They need (or want) the full address because once a delay becomes a denial they only have 24 hours to notify law enforcement. It doesn't matter how long the delay lasts. It's not a denial until it becomes a denial.

Why would they delete the address information during the delay? That would nullify the reason they collected it in the first place -- if they delete it, they won't have it if the delay becomes a denial.
__________________
EXACLY ! so there is zero reason to collect any info until the denial . It's all still there , this would be no different then if you were instantly denied . 24hrs from denial is just that . I might not be making my point correctly because in my head the issue is clear as day . I don't see a "need" to collect any data before a denial - period .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old August 6, 2022, 12:18 AM   #10
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,490
Did you read the example I just posted? In that example, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for NICS to comply with the 24-hour notification window if they didn't already have the address information, because they couldn't contact the FFL within the 24-hour window.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old August 6, 2022, 12:56 AM   #11
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,347
Your right sorry , I went back and reread this several times . Not sure why I did not process that correctly the first time .



Quote:
NSSF has confirmed with NICS that FFLs will not be required to provide the buyer’s complete address as recorded on Form 4473 when initiating a background check. NICS will require FFLs to provide NICS with this information in the event of a Denial or a Delay. NICS advises that the reason for asking for the buyer’s complete address information in the case of Delay is because in the event the Delay is determined to be a Denial the NICS Denial Notification Act requires NICS to notify law enforcement information within 24 hours of denial including the prohibited person’s address. NICS believes they would not be able to meet this statutory 24-hour requirement if they had to contact the FFL in order to obtain the buyer’s address.
I still think they are doing to keep track of as many firearms owners as possible . They could have wrote into the law a timeframe in which they could accomplish what they need with out getting all that data . Yet they use a time frame they know would be impossible to meet thus requiring the FFL to supply the info they wanted all along .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .
Metal god is offline  
Old August 6, 2022, 08:46 AM   #12
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,490
In the overall scheme of things, what percentage of any particular FFL's transfers do you think result in delays? I've been friends with the guy who runs the range for more than twenty years. Before COVID-19 closed the world, I used to hang around the shop before and/or after shooting for hours, chatting, once or twice a week. There's another small shop (no range) just 3 miles from home where I used to hang out for a few hours every Saturday. I have heard both of those FFLs make innumerable background check calls, and I have never heard a single one come back with either a denial or a delay.

If the intention was to create an excuse to collect data on gun owners, this doesn't seem like a very efficient or effective excuse for doing it. On the other hand, working in a busy [local] government office, I can understand why the law might have set a 24-hour window for reporting denials: if the time frame is longer, it's too easy to forget to do it.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old August 6, 2022, 10:57 AM   #13
Rob228
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2010
Location: Hampstead NC
Posts: 1,429
Does this mean that lying on a 4473 is actually going to start getting prosecuted?
Rob228 is offline  
Old August 6, 2022, 11:30 AM   #14
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,852
Quote:
Does this mean that lying on a 4473 is actually going to start getting prosecuted?
I didn't see a requirement for that anywhere in the new act. Only a requirement to report a denial to various LEOs and a time frame.

Remember that when our current President was Vice President, and specifically asked about prosecuting people who lie on the 4473, his answer was "We don't have time for that,,," along with a dismissive hand wave...

PERHAPS now that he's been President a while, he has "time for that", but, I doubt it.

Remember that we are dealing with several intertwined POSSIBLE criminal acts here, and various jurisdictions and responsibilities of numerous state, local, tribal, AND Federal agencies.

Consider. lying on a Federal form is a Federal matter, and a slightly different matter than illegally attempting to obtain a firearm, which MAY be a state/local matter.

However, if no firearm was obtained, it may not be in the same class of offense....

What I am seeing with my admittedly murky vision is this act creates both a CYA and a scapegoat for the FED ('we notified local LE,,") when nothing, or very little gets done or changes.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 6, 2022, 11:43 AM   #15
OPC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2007
Posts: 168
I may be too cynical, but my concern would be with the more exuberant local law enforcement offices showing up at your door to demand your firearms - after all, the FBI just told them you are a prohibited person.
__________________
José
OPC is offline  
Old August 6, 2022, 04:21 PM   #16
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,852
Quote:
local law enforcement offices showing up at your door to demand your firearms - after all, the FBI just told them you are a prohibited person.
This is, I think, a valid concern. Do you think the Fed informing local LEOs about your denial will contain the REASON you were denied?? Or just a blanket statement with "denied" and your name & address, allowing local law to draw their own conclusions??

There ARE denials that are NOT a result of you being a prohibited person.

If, "vigorous" local law people break into your home, (at Zero dark 30) stomp your kitten, shoot your dog, and perhaps worse, a family member or you, BECAUSE the FED gave them your name and incomplete or inaccurate information, who's going to be able to make you whole again? Mere money won't cover it, in my book...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 8, 2022, 09:19 AM   #17
OPC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2007
Posts: 168
Quote:
Do you think the Fed informing local LEOs about your denial will contain the REASON you were denied?? Or just a blanket statement with "denied" and your name & address, allowing local law to draw their own conclusions??

There ARE denials that are NOT a result of you being a prohibited person.

If, "vigorous" local law people break into your home, (at Zero dark 30) stomp your kitten, shoot your dog, and perhaps worse, a family member or you, BECAUSE the FED gave them your name and incomplete or inaccurate information, who's going to be able to make you whole again? Mere money won't cover it, in my book...
Even if the consequences are not so dire, the cost in time and money to mount legal response to get one's firearms returned is likely to be substantial.

Corollary: What does the FBI NICS do after three days of 'delay'? Do they keep investigating even though the FFL may have proceeded with the transaction? Do they drop it? What are local LEOs expected to do after the three day wait, if they even have a mechanism for tracking?
__________________
José
OPC is offline  
Old August 9, 2022, 08:52 PM   #18
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,869
Quote:
OPC I may be too cynical, but my concern would be with the more exuberant local law enforcement offices showing up at your door to demand your firearms - after all, the FBI just told them you are a prohibited person.
If you were prohibited, you probably wouldn't have them in the first place.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old August 9, 2022, 08:55 PM   #19
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,869
Quote:
44 AMP
.... Do you think the Fed informing local LEOs about your denial will contain the REASON you were denied?? Or just a blanket statement with "denied" and your name & address, allowing local law to draw their own conclusions??
Iy better be a specific reason. Just "prohibited" without any other information isn't enough for a search warrant or arrest warrant.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Old August 9, 2022, 09:07 PM   #20
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 2,869
Quote:
OPC

Corollary: What does the FBI NICS do after three days of 'delay'?
When NICS delays a transaction, its to give the FBI Legal Document Examiner additional time to research the buyer. While the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer after the NICS NTN date, the dealer is not required to do so. Some businesses require a "proceed" status before transferring.

Often the information being researched isn't in the FBI databases, but a record held by a state or county. Ive had delays not hit a proceed for three weeks. I have one delay right now that is "open", meaning it hasn't updated to proceed or deny.

Several years ago I transferred after the third business day and a month later received a call from NICS telling me he was denied. "Too late!" They just said thank you and that was the last I heard about that transaction.
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
dogtown tom is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07036 seconds with 10 queries