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Old December 20, 2014, 01:13 PM   #1
Tex S
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Forster vs Redding bushing dies. Same thing???

What is the difference between Forster and Redding bushing bump dies?

EDIT: it looks like the Forster dies do not come standard with an expanding button (they can be purchased separately, though). I guess this is more for the shooter who turns necks, whereas the Redding die comes standard with the button to allow for minor variations in neck wall thickness. I have also noticed that Redding offers a carbide button to eliminate the need for inside neck lubing.

Thoughts?

I am trying to load for my new AR, and as of right now all I have is a Lee Deluxe die set. Unfortunately the FL sizer in this set is working the brass pretty hard, and the cases are growing about .010-.015 each time I size them, which makes for a lot of trimming and shortened case life.

I have always despised case trimming, but trimming 1k cases is EXTREMELY labor intensive, so I wish to keep it to a minimum in the future. Will these dies help with this?

I have been loading for bolt guns for a handful of years (mostly in lots of 50 or less), but trying to feed an autoloader is a different ballgame. Over the last month I have been plugging away here and there on a 1k lot of brass and I am still not done with case prep. Primer pocket uniforming, fh deburring, sizing, trimming, and chamfering take ALOT of time. I'm trying to figure out how to expedite this process. I have ordered the Forster case trimmer pilot that trims and chamfers all in one step... I hope this will help some, but I want to minimize how much my cases stretch so I don't hafta trim after every loading. This would benefit two fold... less time at the bench, and extended case life, as I am certainly not looking forward to prepping another 1k cases once this lot wears out. I want the cases I almost have finished to last as as long as possible.

I did get to run some factory ammo through the new rifle last weekend, and the accuracy was promising. I hoping some good handholds will shrink the already sub-moa groups. Rifle is a LaRue Tac 16" OBR 5.56.

Last edited by Tex S; December 20, 2014 at 01:48 PM.
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Old December 20, 2014, 03:34 PM   #2
Unclenick
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Tex S,

You don't want a bump die for the AR. A bump die sets the shoulder back without resizing the body diameter, which will negatively affect feeding in a self-loader. Many people misuse the term bump to mean limiting shoulder setback with a FL die, but the Forster Bump Die does not misuse the term that way and does not size the body and it is not what you want. You want a full length sizing die, bushing or otherwise, then to set it up to set the shoulder back 0.002" or slightly more.

Personally, because the bushings typically leave a small gap where they fail to complete sizing of the neck all the way to the shoulder, in a self-loader I am more comfortable with a standard die with the neck honed out to the diameter needed by your brass's neck wall thickness. You can buy several Lee dies for modification for the price of one custom die.

P.S., Well I have to partly take back what I said about the Lee dies, as I can't find the sizing dies sold separately anywhere. But two of their basic RGB two-dies sets can be found for under $20, so the cost savings on three of those vs one custom neck die are still attractive.
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Last edited by Unclenick; December 22, 2014 at 11:35 AM.
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Old December 20, 2014, 05:16 PM   #3
243winxb
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X die Standard and Small Base available

Quote:
the cases are growing about .010-.015 each time I size them, which makes for a lot of trimming
RCBS X Die may help with the trimming. http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instru...structions.pdf
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Old December 20, 2014, 06:20 PM   #4
Bart B.
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Unclenick's remarks are excellent.

I'll add that if you're using a full length sizing die and setting fired case shoulders back more than .003" from their fired position, any semiauto rifle will soon develop incipient head separation and soon thereafter the head will crack open if not off.

Traditional sizing die instructions say to set the die so the shell holder presses hard against its bottom when full length sizing cases. That sets the case shoulder back too far most of the time. Get an RCBS Precision Mic or Hornady LNL headspace gauge then use it as per instructions. Then fired case length will be a couple thousandths shorter than before it was fired then lengthen one more thousandth growing about .001" or .002" per shoot-size-shoot cycle.

RCBS, Redding and Forster all claim that unsized portion of the case neck that's about 1/32" long helps center the case neck in the barrel chamber. And their bushings float around a couple thousandths sideways; they're not held in line with the die body axis. As that part of the neck is smaller than the chamber neck, it does nothing to center it in the neck. When fired, rimless bottleneck cases are pressed hard into the chamber shoulder where the case shoulder perfectly centers. How well the case neck centers as it floats clear of the chamber neck wall depends solely on how well centered it is on the case neck.

Full length sizing dies with their necks honed out a bit to about.002" smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter center them best. No other sizing die holds the case body in line with its neck sizing part making everything as straight as possible. And cases are decapped and cleaned before sizing so no expander ball's used that typically bends case necks coming up and out of one sized down too far. Forster charges $12 to hone out one of their standard full length sizing die necks.

Last edited by Bart B.; December 20, 2014 at 07:17 PM.
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Old December 20, 2014, 07:31 PM   #5
Tex S
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Thanks guys...

But what about Reddings full length S die? It says it resizes the entire case. Still not a good option?
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Old December 20, 2014, 09:14 PM   #6
Bart B.
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Yes, Redding full length type S bushing dies are good. Sierra Bullets uses them on all their unprepped cases that such dies are made for. Their best match bullets shoot under 1/3 MOA in their 200 yard test range. So are the same type dies from RCBS. I'd get two bushings; one .001" and one .002"'smaller than loaded round average neck diameter.
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Old December 21, 2014, 09:07 AM   #7
243winxb
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Neck Tension AR15 5.56 Rifles

Tex, See Sierra's info on "neck tension" for AR 15 223 Rifles here. http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...sgunreload.cfm Measure the neck before and after seating a bullet. The bullet should expand the neck a minimum of .002" after seating for correct 35 lbs minimum bullet pull. The Redding Type S FL bushing dies are great. But remember, the brass neck will spring outward after sizing with a bushing, if not using an expander. Measure loaded rounds and fine the ones with the smallest neck diameter. Buy a bushing .002" or .003" smaller. You will end up buying about 3 bushings. [IMG][/IMG] I have loaded for Mini14, M16, AR180 and others using Standard RCBS dies with no problems, other then necks do split sooner with standard dies over working the brass. When not neck turning, its best to use the expander with mixed headstamp brass. With the correct bushing, a slight drag can be felt as the expander moves thru the necks.

Last edited by 243winxb; December 21, 2014 at 09:21 AM. Reason: added When not neck turning ...........
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Old December 21, 2014, 09:55 AM   #8
Bart B.
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Military specs for 5.56 and 7.62/30-06 service ammo bullet pull (release force) is interesting. 22 caliber rounds spec is 35 pounds minimum and some types are twice as much. 30 caliber service ammo is 60 pounds and more; heavier bullets need more grip by their necks. 7.62 and 30-06 match ammo spec is 20 pounds minimum.

There is no military spec for 5.56 match ammo release force. I don't know what commercial .223 match ammo made for the services has for bullet pull specs.

Last edited by Bart B.; December 21, 2014 at 11:02 AM.
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