45 ACP Model 1911

senecahornet · December 15, 2014, 10:58 AM

Over all cartridge length that actually work in the magazine?
just reloaded lead cast bullets, and am not sure of the correct nomenclature for the style of cast bullets, the bullet was cast by a local club member many years ago. it has a cone shape so i assume the title would be something like....__wc. The bullets weight average around 203g.
My O.L. cartridge length is 1.272 and it will not function in the mag.
Should I seat the bullet deeper? Or is there possibly some other problem?

dahermit · December 15, 2014, 11:15 AM

Do the drop test. Dismount the barrel from the gun. Hold the barrel vertical with the chamber up. Drop a loaded round into the chamber. Observe how the head of the cartridge compares with the hood on the barrel. They should be flush with one another. Then, Load a magazine to capacity and observe if the cartridges are short enough (O.A.L.) to function without binding in the magazine. If it passes the drop test, most likely the cartridges are the correct length.

The correct name for cast-lead bullets used in the .45 ACP is "semi-wad cutter". It is unlikely that a full-wad cutter would function the gun correctly.

I cast RCBS 201 semi-wad cutters (a "cone" shaped bullet). Mine measure 1.260 O.A.L. However, that O.A.L. only relates to the RCBS cast bullet inasmuch as a bullet from a different mold maker may have a longer or shorter nose.

polyphemus · December 15, 2014, 11:18 AM

The fellows over the reloading forum are very knowledgeable in these matters
and they will sure have excellent pointers help you solve your issue.
1.272 OAL does seem to be on the long end of tolerance dimension.

**Spats McGee** · December 15, 2014, 12:27 PM

Welcome to TFL!

Moved to Reloading.

Don P · December 15, 2014, 12:53 PM

All my 45 acp semi-autos seem to work well at a OAL of no more than 1.255. They fit the magazine and feed reliably.

j357 · December 15, 2014, 01:28 PM

1.272 seems long for a wc, most likely throwing off the geometry in chambering the round. Try deeper seating. 1.23 to 1.25 works for me. You will likely end up with a the shoulder of the bullet slightly above the case mouth - slightly more than a fingernail thickness - if it is a typical 200g TC style.

senecahornet · December 15, 2014, 03:55 PM

Thanks, I did seat the bullets deeper and they work

**Unclenick** · December 15, 2014, 05:24 PM

Welcome to the forum.

Keep in mind that 1.275" is just the maximum for fit of a round nose bullet in a magazine. Cartridge linear dimensions are always shown as maximums and chamber linear dimensions as minimums because those are the values that are critical for the two to fit together well enough to function.

The actual SAAMI drawing shows a COL range of 1.19"-1.275". That range is for manufacturing ammunition, as SAAMI is a manufacturer's standard organization, not a handloader's organization. Handloaders refer to SAAMI numbers for general guidance but sometime they don't apply to us. Some bullet mold designs, for example, are for bullets that seat even shorter than SAAMI's minimum.

The main limitation with going shorter is it can raise pressure, so when you make a big change you want to work the load up from the starting charge.

senecahornet · December 16, 2014, 07:03 AM

Can Someone explain that in simple english for a simple man?

Wreck-n-Crew · December 16, 2014, 07:31 AM

Welcome to TFL!

Quote:

Shorter C.O.L. Raises Pressure? 45ACP

As long as you stay above minimum OAL there is no danger. I can tell you that without fear of legal repercussions...or so one would think!

Quote:

just reloaded lead cast bullets, and am not sure of the correct nomenclature for the style of cast bullets, the bullet was cast by a local club member many years ago. it has a cone shape so i assume the title would be something like....__wc. The bullets weight average around 203g.

Would it be like this? (shape)

If so yes it's a SWC and those are my favorite target/plinking round.

polyphemus · December 16, 2014, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Can Someone explain that in simple english

A pleasure to try,
A shorter COAL is the result of a deeper seating of the bullet in the case.
This means that the volume available for gas expansion is smaller.
A bicycle tire pump takes air,reduces its volume by compressing it and
this increases its pressure.
All gases can be compressed but there is no free lunch,when you compress a gas and decrease its volume you increase its internal pressure and temperature.May be this helped.

RickB · December 16, 2014, 01:24 PM

Most bullets can be successfully run at an OAL of 1.25", regardless of shape. At that length, some will hit the rifling before the round is fully chambered and will have to be shortened, but most will chamber and fire at 1.25".
Any bullet with a sharp shoulder, like a SWC, will work best with the shoulder "just" outside the case mouth, but how much is "just" the right amount is a matter for experimentation.
I used to set my OAL so that the bullet shoulder stopped against the rifling just before the case mouth stopped against the end of the chamber, but some don't like the bullet to ever touch the rifling, and load just short enough that the case mouth hits first.
As noted above, the "plunk test" will tell you if a round is too long. You'll probably have functional issues if the round is too short.
Once you've found an OAL that functions, you can still adjust for potentially better accuracy.

polyphemus · December 16, 2014, 01:51 PM

Quote:

I used to set my OAL so that the bullet shoulder stopped against the rifling just before the case mouth stopped against the end of the chamber

My understanding of this practice is that it is quite common in bolt action rifles
but I've never heard of it being done in M1911's then again,what do I know?
I take it then that you only did that with cast lead bullets and not FMJRN's.
So the cartridge was headspacing on the bullet and then pushed as far as the slide would go or until the case contacted the forward step whichever came first.Because I only shoot pistol balls my reading has always been that a
small clearance between the ogive and the bore is necessary for proper operation.My question is what advantage was there to doing it the way you described?

RickB · December 16, 2014, 02:26 PM

I did it only with sharp-shouldered SWC and TC bullets. I would adjust the OAL so all rounds, regardless of case length, would drop in so the case rim was flush with the barrel hood.
A chamber as deep as .920" is within spec, so with cases varying between .892"-.896" (I don't think I've ever seen a case as long as .898"), there could be some variation in how far a loaded round would drop into the chamber if the case mouth was doing the headspacing.
I decided that rounds feeding into the chamber were probably seating deeper and less consistently than when merely dropped into the chamber, and I wasn't really getting any benefit (and pretty-much stopped shooting SWC and TC bullets in .45, too).

EDIT: Just to ramble a little more, the point of the exercise was to ensure consistent seating depth. I'd read a piece about how much more accurate a .45 pistol became after making cases, trimmed from .45 Win Mag brass IIRC, custom fit for a given gun's chamber depth. I'd read some other stuff about utilizing the bullet's shoulder for the same purpose, and gave it a try. I also read about elevated pressures from driving the bullet into the rifling prior to ignition.

polyphemus · December 16, 2014, 03:04 PM

Quote:

I'd read a piece about how much more accurate a .45 pistol became after making cases, trimmed from .45 Win Mag brass IIRC, custom fit for a given gun's chamber depth

I was afraid of that,good thing you quit while still ahead.Seating depth consistency is an elusive goal,I get it between +.001 -.003 and think I'm doing ok,tighter than that only with new brass I'm sure.I guess NM people demand
their ammo to be perfect uniform,I'm too old for that.
Once I find something that works I keep doing it,no spirit of adventure here.

RickB · December 17, 2014, 03:25 PM

I've never trimmed a .45 case, and never intend to, but handloading is an experimental sport, and when someone who's very well known in the world of guns, shooting, and handloading, provides an interesting lead, I'll follow . . . for a while.
I used to clean primer pockets, separate brass by headstamp, and other stuff that probably would never create a measurable improvement in my loads, and I don't do much of that anymore, either.

December 15, 2014, 10:58 AM	#1
senecahornet Member Join Date: December 7, 2014 Location: FINGER LAKES - NEW YORK Posts: 48	45 ACP Model 1911 Over all cartridge length that actually work in the magazine? just reloaded lead cast bullets, and am not sure of the correct nomenclature for the style of cast bullets, the bullet was cast by a local club member many years ago. it has a cone shape so i assume the title would be something like....__wc. The bullets weight average around 203g. My O.L. cartridge length is 1.272 and it will not function in the mag. Should I seat the bullet deeper? Or is there possibly some other problem?

December 15, 2014, 11:15 AM	#2
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	Do the drop test. Dismount the barrel from the gun. Hold the barrel vertical with the chamber up. Drop a loaded round into the chamber. Observe how the head of the cartridge compares with the hood on the barrel. They should be flush with one another. Then, Load a magazine to capacity and observe if the cartridges are short enough (O.A.L.) to function without binding in the magazine. If it passes the drop test, most likely the cartridges are the correct length. The correct name for cast-lead bullets used in the .45 ACP is "semi-wad cutter". It is unlikely that a full-wad cutter would function the gun correctly. I cast RCBS 201 semi-wad cutters (a "cone" shaped bullet). Mine measure 1.260 O.A.L. However, that O.A.L. only relates to the RCBS cast bullet inasmuch as a bullet from a different mold maker may have a longer or shorter nose. Last edited by dahermit; December 15, 2014 at 11:37 AM.

December 15, 2014, 12:27 PM	#4
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 8,821	Welcome to TFL! Moved to Reloading. __________________ I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some.

December 15, 2014, 12:53 PM	#5
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	All my 45 acp semi-autos seem to work well at a OAL of no more than 1.255. They fit the magazine and feed reliably. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

December 15, 2014, 03:55 PM	#7
senecahornet Member Join Date: December 7, 2014 Location: FINGER LAKES - NEW YORK Posts: 48	thank you all Thanks, I did seat the bullets deeper and they work

December 15, 2014, 11:18 AM	#3
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	The fellows over the reloading forum are very knowledgeable in these matters and they will sure have excellent pointers help you solve your issue. 1.272 OAL does seem to be on the long end of tolerance dimension.

December 15, 2014, 01:28 PM	#6
j357 Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2009 Location: Liberty Twp, OH Posts: 283	1.272 seems long for a wc, most likely throwing off the geometry in chambering the round. Try deeper seating. 1.23 to 1.25 works for me. You will likely end up with a the shoulder of the bullet slightly above the case mouth - slightly more than a fingernail thickness - if it is a typical 200g TC style.

December 15, 2014, 05:24 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Welcome to the forum. Keep in mind that 1.275" is just the maximum for fit of a round nose bullet in a magazine. Cartridge linear dimensions are always shown as maximums and chamber linear dimensions as minimums because those are the values that are critical for the two to fit together well enough to function. The actual SAAMI drawing shows a COL range of 1.19"-1.275". That range is for manufacturing ammunition, as SAAMI is a manufacturer's standard organization, not a handloader's organization. Handloaders refer to SAAMI numbers for general guidance but sometime they don't apply to us. Some bullet mold designs, for example, are for bullets that seat even shorter than SAAMI's minimum. The main limitation with going shorter is it can raise pressure, so when you make a big change you want to work the load up from the starting charge. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 16, 2014, 07:03 AM	#9
senecahornet Member Join Date: December 7, 2014 Location: FINGER LAKES - NEW YORK Posts: 48	Shorter C.O.L. Raises Pressure? 45ACP Can Someone explain that in simple english for a simple man?

December 16, 2014, 01:24 PM	#12
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Most bullets can be successfully run at an OAL of 1.25", regardless of shape. At that length, some will hit the rifling before the round is fully chambered and will have to be shortened, but most will chamber and fire at 1.25". Any bullet with a sharp shoulder, like a SWC, will work best with the shoulder "just" outside the case mouth, but how much is "just" the right amount is a matter for experimentation. I used to set my OAL so that the bullet shoulder stopped against the rifling just before the case mouth stopped against the end of the chamber, but some don't like the bullet to ever touch the rifling, and load just short enough that the case mouth hits first. As noted above, the "plunk test" will tell you if a round is too long. You'll probably have functional issues if the round is too short. Once you've found an OAL that functions, you can still adjust for potentially better accuracy.

December 16, 2014, 02:26 PM	#14
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	I did it only with sharp-shouldered SWC and TC bullets. I would adjust the OAL so all rounds, regardless of case length, would drop in so the case rim was flush with the barrel hood. A chamber as deep as .920" is within spec, so with cases varying between .892"-.896" (I don't think I've ever seen a case as long as .898"), there could be some variation in how far a loaded round would drop into the chamber if the case mouth was doing the headspacing. I decided that rounds feeding into the chamber were probably seating deeper and less consistently than when merely dropped into the chamber, and I wasn't really getting any benefit (and pretty-much stopped shooting SWC and TC bullets in .45, too). EDIT: Just to ramble a little more, the point of the exercise was to ensure consistent seating depth. I'd read a piece about how much more accurate a .45 pistol became after making cases, trimmed from .45 Win Mag brass IIRC, custom fit for a given gun's chamber depth. I'd read some other stuff about utilizing the bullet's shoulder for the same purpose, and gave it a try. I also read about elevated pressures from driving the bullet into the rifling prior to ignition. Last edited by RickB; December 16, 2014 at 02:31 PM.

December 17, 2014, 03:25 PM	#16
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	I've never trimmed a .45 case, and never intend to, but handloading is an experimental sport, and when someone who's very well known in the world of guns, shooting, and handloading, provides an interesting lead, I'll follow . . . for a while. I used to clean primer pockets, separate brass by headstamp, and other stuff that probably would never create a measurable improvement in my loads, and I don't do much of that anymore, either.