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Old May 12, 2024, 02:28 PM   #26
tangolima
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Wow, that's very interesting. I can't wait to try that myself.

The outlying shot is 1", 0.7moa, high? Looks like the rifle has a bit of muzzle hop. It doesn't take much, only 0.007", to generate that sort of error. I recall similar observation years ago on my rem 700 in .30-06. With rear bag the poi was as much as 2moa higher than without. Guess where I put my supporting hand when it is not holding the rear bag? Holding the forearm down on the rest.

-TL

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Old May 12, 2024, 03:34 PM   #27
stagpanther
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I say keep doing what works, scopes aren't that fragile.
Resting a hand on top isn't going to hurt anything.
You bet. Funny thing is--I'm wondering how much better all my other rifles might shoot; especially those I've locked up in the "dog kennel."
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Old May 13, 2024, 10:01 PM   #28
tangolima
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Tried it this afternoon on my AR in 6mm ARC. Unfortunately it didn't work. The group opened up. I reckon the rifle probably has little or no muzzle hop to begin with. The group opens up when I don't have the rear bag to help steady the aim. With try again in harder kicking calibers.

6-shot, 150yd
No hold. 0.9moa
Hold. 1.7moa.

-TL

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Last edited by tangolima; May 13, 2024 at 10:14 PM.
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Old May 14, 2024, 01:19 AM   #29
stagpanther
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Tried it this afternoon on my AR in 6mm ARC. Unfortunately it didn't work. The group opened up. I reckon the rifle probably has little or no muzzle hop to begin with. The group opens up when I don't have the rear bag to help steady the aim. With try again in harder kicking calibers.
Yes--I do use a rear bag to help. But I want to emphasize again that it's not an "absolute will always shoot better if you do this" thing, while muzzle flip may be a factor it really depends on how the rifle balances and where the front support is relative to the center of balance (what I call it). It's conceivable that putting pressure on the scope depending on how the rifle balances could make it harder to maintain consistency shot to shot. You should be able to see through the optic less movement of the reticle when applying the pressure relative to than when not applying that pressure (including when pulling the trigger and the shot breaks). When I see a constant stillness I like to call that moment the "posilock."
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Old May 14, 2024, 01:41 PM   #30
tangolima
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For sure. Different setups have their own particulars. I squeeze the rear bag for adjusting POA, so I can't have that if my supporting hand is somewhere else.

I'm still doing slightly below 1moa. No complaints there. I'm taking her out to 300yd next, expecting better than 1.2moa. No it probably won't work with the wind and lousy bullet BC. With wind corrections, I hope I will have good hit rate on half a printer paper.

-TL

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Old May 15, 2024, 02:33 PM   #31
georgehwbush
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methinks that basicly you are just adding "non-ringing" weight to the system, which should always add stability to it. but; mussel tension must remain constant or you change the dynamics.


i have shot both ways myself, and with varying results from day to day, it seems very sensitive to mussel tension to me.

one might test with just adding a sand bag over the scope ?

(a light one, say five pounds)
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Old May 15, 2024, 02:40 PM   #32
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and yes stagpanther those are very robust scopes and if the mounts are top notch quality, they are very ridgid.

i have one that fell 7feet onto hardwood floor and didn't even have to rezero. (ask me no questions, i'll tell you no lies) it did fold the end of the sunshade down a little bit though. i have 5 of them in total and love them. have and would recommend to anyone.
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Old May 23, 2024, 05:19 AM   #33
Pumpkin
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I squeeze my rear sandbag also when shooting from a bench.

When shooting from my hunting blind (it’s pretty big) I have a 1x4 that I put across the inner frame work parallel to my rifle for my shooting hand’s elbow to rest on. This stabilizes the rear of the stock with the help of my non shooting hand while the forearm rests on a strip of pipe insulation that’s on the bottom of the window frame. This more closely mimics my bench shooting, holding the forearm would be basically impossible.

Last edited by Pumpkin; May 23, 2024 at 05:26 AM.
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Old May 25, 2024, 10:01 AM   #34
davidsog
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I tried the hand over the scope to help counteract any possible pitching movement and the groupings immediately shrank dramatically.
I believe a couple of things are going on here.

A properly mounted, leveled, with properly lapped scope rings should not need any pressure on the scope mount. In fact, that pressure should be detrimental.

This reminds of the technique of applying slight pressure with your support hand thumb against the frame in rapid fire pistol shooting to make up for sloppy trigger work.

It improves accuracy and it works to cover up other flaws.

So, going back to Murphy's Laws of Combat....

If it is Stupid and it works, It is not Stupid.
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Old May 25, 2024, 10:07 AM   #35
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If it is Stupid and it works, It is not Stupid.
I like that.
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Old May 26, 2024, 05:53 AM   #36
Doug Lee
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What is muzzle hop?
Thanks,
Doug
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Old May 26, 2024, 10:16 AM   #37
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What is muzzle hop?
Poor Recoil Management
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Old May 26, 2024, 11:46 AM   #38
tangolima
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Originally Posted by Doug Lee View Post
What is muzzle hop?
Thanks,
Doug
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The recoil force on the shooter's shoulder creates a torque to rotate the muzzle upwards. If such torque exceeds certain value, depends the rifles weight and other factors, muzzle jumps up when the rifle fires. It will affect the poi if it starts to happen before the bullet clears the bore. It is possible, especially with AR's inline barrel arrangement and light weight bullet, to have zero muzzle jump. The rifle just recoil straight backwards.

Muzzle jump, muzzle rise, muzzle climb, and some other names. I call it muzzle hop to be inline with bipod hop as in preloading bipod.

-TL

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Old May 27, 2024, 09:04 AM   #39
Doug Lee
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Thanks for the quick reply -TL
Interesting.
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