#4 Buck

[mikenbarb]

Kristop, If worried about flyers then you might want to consider the frangable loads. They have alot of energy but little or no pass thru. Also is they hit a wall or something some of them turn to powder. I still like my copper plated #4 birdshot for HD. 2 3/4 mags work great and have massive ft.lb. energy at 0-10 yds.

[kristop64089]

The good thing about my HD shotty, is the previous owner had the forcing cone lengthened, giving it a tight pattern.
I haven't thought about frangibles tho, I may look into that some more.
This is whyt I love shotguns. So much variety.
I am also going to pattern some #4 this week.

[Shadow walker1]

In my part of New York a few years back the chains (Dicks, Gander and Bass) pulled ALL 00 and 000 from the shelves, mostly due to legal hysteria. Their defence; "You can't hunt deer in NY with Buckshot anyway." True, but it ignores all other uses of the load, including just range shooting.

I've used #4 for years though for a protection load. You can still buy it here, and the mom and pops run by real folk will carry 00 too if ya want it.

My primary HD weapon isn't a shotgun, since NY hasn't taken my right to continue owning my 1911. It's my carry weapon, and thus the most familiar to me for such situations. (Note: I'm NOT LE, I do private security. I don't want to mis-represent myself)

I do have a pistol grip pump 12 Ga. It's an old J.C. Higgins Model 20 (Sears brand of the High Standard 200) some one threw a winchester rubber pistol grip on and has the Cutts Compensater style choke on it. Folks who stop by my home have the typical reaction to it, expecting some wild shoot-out stories from me. (They seem to expect that anyways given my service history, which is as wrong as assuming on the shotgun) The dumber ones even insist on calling the cylinder choke a 'silencer'.

I'm actually looking for an original or adaptable shoulder stock for it. In an emergency, I have an 870 for the #4 loads. An off the shelf 870, with no trickin' out. If the .45 doesn't fit the job, the 870 will. You don't need fancier than that IMPO, and in court it looks like my hunting shotgun, which it is. Like it or not, when you use deadly force appearance is everything to the average jury, and if you appear to have been 'looking for a fight', you'll probably be judged wrong.

Beyond that, all the fancy tricking to make a "Tactical" shotgun isn't going to make it out-perform yer average hunting shotgun by much in the heat of the moment, and may make it easier for the bad guy to use against you. (I'm constantly reminded of the home invasion a few years ago where the unarmed baddie armed himself and killed the homeowner with the homeowners tactical Bennelli. The homeowner was asleep in bed, the Bennelli was kept loaded and near the door......

The Higgins is in the back of the gun cabinet. The 870 near the front. The .45 is in the bedstand when not on my hip and works in the tightest rooms and hallways.

[mpage]

Remember in a HD situation with the death of a "perp" there will still be a charge of Manslaughter against you. It might be cleared and no harm to you and you go home.

With all due respect I don't think this is entirely accurate; it depends upon the state in which it occurred. I'm not sure if you were the one in NJ, but does lethal force in a HD situation necessarily carry a Manslaughter charge, in your state?

I also noticed a comment about California. Actually it's not as bad here as some might think. I've seen several incidents where private citizens used deadly force including ones occurring outside the home, and charges weren't filed by the DA.

[Scattergun Bob]

Unless you live in San Jose, San Fracisco or Carmel by the Sea. Glad I'm gone, good luck with the new ammo ban.

Good Luck and Be Safe

[tackdriver]

My cousin's uncle's brother who is a Navy Seal said #4 buckshot was issued in 'nam.

Kidding, of course, but I did read that in a book many moons ago.

[BillCA]

Indoors, #4 buckshot is heap big medicine for intruders. My 12-gauge Winchester Defender is loaded with three rounds of #4 and 5 rounds of #00. In my small townhome, if I have to use more than 3 rounds it's a serious fight.


As to the configuration -- it's the same configuration that one of the local agencies uses on their 870's. If it comes down to arguments about it's "Rambo-ish-ness" my attorney will be able to point out logical reasons for the ammo sling, which is the only "add on" feature.

But the primary shotgun, right now, is a 20-gauge 870 loaded with #3 buckshot. It's lighter and quicker handling than the 12 bore.

[olddrum1]

Like MNB said, a good load of birdshot fours can be devasting at close range. They are going to spread a little better than buck and will ruin anyones day. Probably go through three rooms of the house.

[azsixshooter]

Those ammo slings suck. It's harder to hold a bead on someone with that crap swinging around underneath wanting to pull the muzzle side to side. You can't really take a hasty sling position with it either. Side saddles are superior.

[nemoaz]

I'm not sure if it's clear to all the posters (and I know it isn't clear to all the readers), but #4 birdshot (0.13) and #4 buckshot (0.24) are two different loads.

http://www.ammobank.com/shotsize.html

More: http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/conten...mmunition.html

[Dusty Rivers]

I posted a question on the handgun forum about using Speer ammo in a revolver for HD. there were several comments of why would you want to spray shot all over your house. Yet on this forum the discussion for HD is number of pellets instead of a slug. HD hanguns talked about are heavy with the 357mag. Given that the shotgunners are concerend with number of pellets and over penetration of walls and the handgun people are more concerned with stopping power it seems that the two groups are talking in different directins when it comes to HD loads. If you think of a 357 loaded with birdshot loads is similar to a shotgun with buckshot and a 357 with hydya shock loads is simmilar to a sabot slug, it gets confusing as to what option is best. Should your prime concern be one shot stopping power, or worring about the number of walls and how big your pattern is at 5'-10'-20'?

No matter what you shoot it can go through a wall. Aren't you better with one projectile rattling around your house than 9+ pellets bouncing?
around?

[madmag]

No matter what you shoot it can go through a wall. Aren't you better with one projectile rattling around your house than 9+ pellets bouncing?
around?

No. First pellets don't bounce around a lot. Penetration gets a lot of air time. My personal tests and additional reading indicate that a shot gun with smaller size pellets is a very good compromise. AT very close range a shotgun is devastating. It just makes a big hole...even with small pellets. But the energy dissipates fast and will not penetrate walls very well. Even bird shot. We think of bird shot and a guy just getting stung out at some distance. But at close range even bird shot is deadly.

So, if you want effective stopping power and not over penetrate, the shotgun is still a good choice. I have both 12 & 20ga. But I keep my 20ga. loaded with #4 shot for home defense.

If you think of a 357 loaded with bird shot loads is similar to a shotgun with buckshot and a 357 with hydya shock loads is similar to a sabot slug,

Not even close in my book. A .357 with bird shot does not equal to a shotgun with bird shot.

[Scattergun Bob]

Comparing 12 or 20 gauge shot characteristics to pistol shot capsule characteristics is just wrong. Please do not take offence at that.

The main reason for shot capsules in handguns not being a acceptable personal defense round is lack of penetration, not over penetration. They tend to bounce off the intended target and fall to the floor, this is not satisfactory.

Shotguns of the 12 and 20 gauge class shooting buckshot at personal defense distances do not have the above stated problem. They penetrate human bodies just fine and loose most of their energy before leaving the body.

I know the movies have given us a vision of room filling size patterns of shot at point blank distance, this is a fairy tale, (it does look good on camera).
IN THE REAL WORLD shot patterns are quite small within the first 30 feet of travel. At 10 ft some of my shotguns pattern no more that twice the diameter of the bore about 1.5 inches!!!, and at 30 feet I most shotguns should be inside 8 inches.

Yes, we have the same problem with shotguns that we do with pistols, they do over penetrate and we must establish a field of fire that avoids hurting innocent neighbors.

Good Books that do all of this justice;

The defensive shotgun by Louis Awerbuck

Stressfire II advanced combat shotgun by Massad Ayoob

Hope this Helps

Good Luck & Be safe

[Dusty Rivers]

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it.